I Desperately Need Your Advice!

[Leelaa17]

Hi guys,

Just had a lady come over (from DogTech) that my dad organised as a training thing... She said a lot of valid stuff but one thing I am trying to get my head around is that she said a 'great calming exercise' is tying the dog up. Start at 5 mins then work your way up to an hour.

I can see how it can be beneficial both to the dogs AND me but I just cant get the thought out of my head that it is bad for them.

Can everyone tell me what they think about tying their dogs up and how it has worked/not worked for you??

I also am really struggling... as in bawling my eyes out struggling... with the fact that I have been told to give them no affection for the next couple of weeks - to raise the discipline (training). I am really having a hard time dealing with this because I couldn't imagine not hugging them and kissing them before I go to bed and when I get up and when I leave to go somewhere.

Please help me.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Leelaa17

[Gayle.]

What's the reason you have a trainer coming in?

[persephone]

perhaps try someone else?

You don't HAVE to follow their advice ..

What did she say exactly?

NO reward for good behaviour?

I am not one for cuddling dogs a lot .. and certainly don't kiss them or patting a dog for just breathing .. but my dogs do get affection for doing the right thing, and we play little bits

I am also not sure about the tying up bit as a calming exercise .. for a lot of dogs it would be very stressful at first . Our dogs are all brought up to accept being tied up .. but I have no experience in using this for`adult pet dogs ..

I'm just sorry you now feel so upset - and hope someone on here can help sort it out for you.

[Red Fox]

By "give them no affection" was the trainer refering to NILIF?

If so it's certainly not bad advice.

Have a read of this too http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

[persephone]

was the trainer refering to NILIF?

If so it's certainly not bad advice.

No - that's good advice

I hope Leela remembers exactly what the trainer told her , so we get it right!

[Leelaa17]

what is NILIF? She said 'a good calming exercise was to tie the dog up for about 5 mins a day and then work your way up to an hour a day.'

She also said things like reward them for good behaviour such as a pat on the head or a treat.

Dad got her in to work out how we could make them a little more obedient around the house and to not hassle the other two dogs we have (they are very very old) and to make it so they respect us a bit more (because, yes, I am a push over and I DO know that I need to make them realise I am the pack leader - because they dont think so not ).

She said things like 'take away their food after 10-15mins and if they havent finished etc then they will learn eventually to eat when they are fed.

[Staranais]

If you've got a problem with the trainer's advice, best to bring it up with them. It's possible you're misunderstanding what they've said, or what they mean. Or if they know you won't or can't do something they've advised, perhaps they can find another technique for you to use.

[Red Fox]

NILIF = nothing in life is free. If you Google it you'll find HEAPS of info.

http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages.php?pageid=100

Edited April 8, 2011 by SecretKei

[Leelaa17]

I did say I was uncomfortable using the tying up thing and I asked if there were any other exercises and she actually got really defensive and didnt give me any other options? I just dont want to tie them up until I know whether or not it is the right approach.

[persephone]

I like the food advice - and it SOUNDS like N I LI F

[huski]

I have had a couple of trainers tell me to ignore my dog and when I first had it suggested to me I was like no way I'm far too soft.

But now I REALLY get it. My dog is not a particularly soft dog and fawning all over her only encourages her to devalue me and what I give her. It was really hard for me especially as my dog is not a pack driven dog (so rarely wants pats/cuddles etc) because it would make me feel like my dog doesn't like me and I would just try harder to 'force' it, if that makes sense. I see the difference now between me and my mum, who my dog will push around for pats and attention quite regularly.

Edited April 8, 2011 by huski

[Guest Willow]

May I ask, did she refer to herself as a "Dog Listener" by any chance???? Some of this sounds a bit familiar.....

[Guest Willow]

May I ask, did she refer to herself as a "Dog Listener" by any chance???? Some of this sounds a bit familiar.....

[Staranais]

I did say I was uncomfortable using the tying up thing and I asked if there were any other exercises and she actually got really defensive and didnt give me any other options? I just dont want to tie them up until I know whether or not it is the right approach.

Hmmm, if they're getting defensive when you ask questions, I'd worry that perhaps they weren't that educated or experienced so only had one method for dealing with issues. A good trainer should be able to explain the reasons behind what they want you to do, so that you understand what you're doing & you're on board.

But, in your shoes I'd probably give her advice a try unless it was clearly making the dog miserable. And there's no reason it should, being tied up for five minutes or even an hour shouldn't be the end of the world to a healthy adult dog.

Do they have a guarantee of any kind or free follow up help in case you get no results, or poor results, from following the advice?

[MolassesLass]

All too often NILIF is explained without enough detail on when/how affection is allowed so owners are left believing they are being told to never give or allow affection. But at it's simplest, NILIF is just saying you never give affection unless you initiate it.

I'm not sure if the tying up will make your dog calmer, perhaps it will if it's not used to sitting in the one spot. But I don't see any harm in tying them up, so I'd give it a go.

The food thing is a winner though, definitely a good practice.

[megan_]

By "give them no affection" was the trainer refering to NILIF?

If so it's certainly not bad advice.

Have a read of this too http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101

I'm pretty sure they don't mean this.

DogTech area franchise and I believe this is one of their stock standard measures. Personally, I'd never go to a franchise that people have bought into without doing something like the NDTF course.

Leelaa - If I haven't confused you with someone else, I believe you're waiting to see Steve from ProK9? If I was in your position, I'd wait until I saw him before I tried something. Trying lots of different things can often lead to a very confused dog. Dogs also tend to pick up when we aren't convinced of what we're doing - they can be manipulative little sh*ts!

So, I'd do some trick training and games at home, some on lead walks, no dog parks etc until I saw someone that I could trust and I'd follow their advice 100%. If I felt uncomfortable with it I'd ask them for reasons etc.

FWIW, I do agree that it is important not to humanise a dog. Dogs don't need lots of cuddles and "aaww,,,snooky pookies". They need exercise and rules. And then some affection.

The ignore method worked very well for me, but I had a dog that had come straight from being bred at a puppy farm. She was terrified of all people and ignoring her helped take the pressure off.

ETA: If Erny is reading this, I realise the irony of me saying that dogs don't need lots of "awww....snooky pookies"

Edited April 8, 2011 by megan_

[OSoSwift]

Personally I don't tie dogs up I crate them, but there are times when tying a dog up is useful adn mine are used to being tethered for short periods so if they need to be tethered they accept it.

I use the 15 minute food rule and NILIF is a great idea.

MAybe you should speak to her to make sure you fully understand what she is saying. If you are very soft you possible will find it hard, but if you do wish to give your dogs affection make sure they do something first, Ie get them to sit or drop or do a bit of heeling, then give them affection. It deosn't mean you can never give them affection.

[W Sibs]

How i see it, it's the same as putting a puppy in a pen or crate. You ignore them when they are playing up or whinging, and praise them when they are quiet and calm.

Another person do use NILIF.

Edited April 8, 2011 by CW EW

[Erny]

A friend's housemate had Dogtech out to her dog at least 10 years ago. Anxiety and human aggro was the issue. Tethering was one of the things suggested to her back then too. My friend, whose dog had no particular issue, was instructed the same thing.

I'm not sure how tethering increases relaxation but I can see how it would be handy to teach your dog to relax when on tether.

There is a difference between withdrawing all attention -vs- withholding attention and giving it only on your own terms (ie when the dog does something for you first .... which is to a good extent NILIF).

Withholding attention completely (save for feeding the dog and generally only doing what you must do for the dog's physical health - but this does not include walks though) is IMO a pretty harsh technique. I have used it once or twice for aggro towards family members, but carefully.

So perhaps you have misunderstood your trainer and maybe it is the "ignore and give attention on your terms and not where your dog can perceive to have instigated or demanded it" ??? If that's the case, I can see the value in that.

With the older dogs - how old are they?

Are they in good health?

What do yo mean by "hassle"?

Edited April 8, 2011 by Erny

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Given your heading, I expected this to be about a dog under threat of death or significant illness.

I don't know your trainer, but I suspect that they might be saying something a lot of us say - affection is fine, but on your terms.

Right now I'm sitting at a table. Lying next to me on one side is our old Afghan and on the other side is our young Saluki pup. That's affection to me as it is, they want to be where I am. If one of them bumped my arm trying to monster me to pat them I'd ignore them. But if i happen to look down at them and think "gosh, you're beautiful and I love you" and then I give them a pat, well, that's fine. I initiated it.

If I can go a bit woo woo here, affection with dogs is often most rewarding in the understated moments where you connect as a working team. You have the opportunity to reshape your relationship with your dog, and under the right guidance, that will be a good thing for both of you. There are some training methods that are dangerous, they are usually self-evident tho'. Ignoring a well fed, watered and sheltered dog for an hour is not a bad thing to do.