Question For Behaviourists

[JoeK]

Do you use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation in behaviour modification? I'm interested that in some circles it or something like it is held up as the general first step in behaviour modification, but it's not spoken about much in other circles.

I am thinking sometimes with the many people having the theory on the dog?. Ok, we have a Karen Overalls in this discussion who join many others with the theory, but I thinking sometimes and question myself what this theory people have achieved with the dog for real for us to believe the theory is good?

My background in the working dog for the sport of Schutzhund and a little bit of the KNPV and protection training, so I look onto the training theory of the people who do this working with success, yes?. Beautiuful dog training from the Ivan Balabanov multi world champion trainer with notching on his belt, so if Ivan he have a theory, for me is good to know his theory because he better trainer than me is proven and I know he can do the good jobs with the dog.

But some of this others with the theory I ask myself what have they done in the real life with the dog for me to listen for adopting the theory as good?

Maybe I haveing problem on the relax with my dog I train him for Schutzhund and the theory on Ivan is different to the theory on Karens Overall, which one I take is best I am thinking becaise Ivan has multi world title hes best, or maybe Karen is best for my problem is very confusing with so many of the theory around today?

Joe

[Erny]

but ..... Ivan Balabanov

[JulesP]

Yes I'm afraid I couldn't have a lesson with Ivan as I would be giggling like a school girl

Joe regardless of who the trainer is or what they have done I tend to consider whether the theory makes sense rather than blindly thinking it must be good just because of the person that said it. I might have a play and see how it works. It is not good to be closed off to any idea because of the person delivering it. You might get one little thing from the person that makes a difference.

[Aidan3]

But some of this others with the theory I ask myself what have they done in the real life with the dog for me to listen for adopting the theory as good?

Maybe I haveing problem on the relax with my dog I train him for Schutzhund and the theory on Ivan is different to the theory on Karens Overall, which one I take is best I am thinking becaise Ivan has multi world title hes best, or maybe Karen is best for my problem is very confusing with so many of the theory around today?

Joe

Hi Joe, I would think that if you were training for Schutzhund you would listen to Balabanov, and if you had a behaviour problem you would listen to Overall. I'm not sure that Balabanov really addresses behavioural problems as such, nor that Overall would even attempt to offer ideas for Schutzhund training.

Dr Overall is a highly successful veterinary behaviourist with years of experience under her belt, so I don't discount anything she says unless it comes to aversion, for which her bias is evident.

I think we can learn things from people with all sorts of backgrounds. Anyone who has won multiple titles at high levels of Schutzhund or the ring sports does know what they are talking about, but you have to keep in mind that they are not working with pet dogs, dogs with low drive, or dogs with less than ideal temperaments for those sports. Nor are they trying to solve problems every day such as what to do when two dogs don't get along very well, or what to do if a dog suffers from severe separation anxiety.

On the flip-side, I doubt Dr Overall could tell you anything much about footstep-to-footstep tracking with a high-drive Malinois. So horses for courses.

[corvus]

I don't disagree, but I think it is misleading to refer to it as stay training.

The point I made in my first post, Corvus was that in answer to your question, many trainer/behaviourists possibly do utilise stay training in the rehabilitation of unwanted dog behaviour but wouldn't necessarily put their hands up to say they use "Karen Overall's Protocol". If no-one put their hand up to say they do or don't use "Karen Overall's Protocol" you might draw two conclusions from that. One being that perhaps they don't know what "Karen Overall's Protocol" is and/or the second being that trainer/behaviourists don't use it.

When in fact, there's a fat chance they DO use it, but that it is not "Karen Overall's Protocol" but merely something that they do because they know how to do it.

Yes, I know. I read it. And that was why I asked whether you use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation or something like it in the first place. You basically told me why I worded my question the way I did. And now you're telling me again. Thanks. It doesn't change the fact I think it's misleading to refer to Karen Overall's protocol as stay training. I get that some people use stay training instead to achieve much the same thing. Good. They are free to call it that and tell me that's how they use it or not comment because they haven't realised that they do. It's all the same to me.

A good stay might be a side effect, and the protocol might be helpful to stay training, but it's beside the point.

You're right - but I don't think it is a point I made? But perhaps this is your thought and not something you are projecting onto me .

I am having difficulties understanding what points you are making to be honest. You didn't make it. My apologies for misunderstanding you.

I don't really agree that obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours.

Where did I say that "obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours"?

Er.... here?

But when you think about it, many and much of our obedience training goes to 'calming'.

Getting a dog to learn (for example) stay work DOES have a spin off to self-control and calmness. Being excited in release mode can still contain an element of self control. So I don't really know what you're talking about, Corvus.

I'm talking about a very broad generalisation I thought you made. My apologies if I again misunderstood. Self control is not necessarily the same as calm IMO. I can have a dog that is coiled like a spring but still holding a cued position. Yes, I do agree that there are elements of self control in a lot of training we do, but I don't think that necessarily equates to calm. By calm I'm talking about protocol for relaxation kind of calm. A dog that is relaxed. I think perhaps we are talking about different things.

The point is that the exercise is such as we might train our dogs to stay in a command. Whether it is taught for that purpose or for the purpose of being able to use it for calm and control is beside the point.

Ergo (which is what I've been saying) the 'art' of a good reliable stay can and often is (for me, anyway) part of what I might do for dogs where I see its value in the rehabilitation of undesirable behaviour/s. So my answer to you would be yes - I do very similarly what Karen does, but not under the title of "Karen Overall's Protocol".

I did read it and understand it the first time, Erny. You appear to have missed my point, which was simply that I don't think stay training and training relaxation are necessarily the same thing, which you then agreed with anyway insofar as the purpose and focus of the relaxation protocol is not to train a stay. I think we are arguing much the same thing. I get that you use stay training in much the same way as someone else might use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation. You answered my question just fine the first time.

A contradiction in terms with what you've just said. We ARE talking about stay work.

Sorry, I thought we were talking about obedience in general.

Lablover: Both of my dogs relax. The 18 month old one is just only good at it sometimes. I'm doing the relaxation protocol (and variations thereof) so he can manage doing nothing any time rather than only when he's already relaxed or at least not far from it. Without the help of some serious arousal-lowering tools like a Thundershirt or a massage session. The thread is not about my dogs, though.

Edited for clarity. I hope.

Edited April 10, 2011 by corvus

[JulesP]

I would be concerned that allowing the dog to move position whilst doing this calming could stuff up a formal stay later on.

[JoeK]

But some of this others with the theory I ask myself what have they done in the real life with the dog for me to listen for adopting the theory as good?

Maybe I haveing problem on the relax with my dog I train him for Schutzhund and the theory on Ivan is different to the theory on Karens Overall, which one I take is best I am thinking becaise Ivan has multi world title hes best, or maybe Karen is best for my problem is very confusing with so many of the theory around today?

Joe

Hi Joe, I would think that if you were training for Schutzhund you would listen to Balabanov, and if you had a behaviour problem you would listen to Overall. I'm not sure that Balabanov really addresses behavioural problems as such, nor that Overall would even attempt to offer ideas for Schutzhund training.

Dr Overall is a highly successful veterinary behaviourist with years of experience under her belt, so I don't discount anything she says unless it comes to aversion, for which her bias is evident.

I think we can learn things from people with all sorts of backgrounds. Anyone who has won multiple titles at high levels of Schutzhund or the ring sports does know what they are talking about, but you have to keep in mind that they are not working with pet dogs, dogs with low drive, or dogs with less than ideal temperaments for those sports. Nor are they trying to solve problems every day such as what to do when two dogs don't get along very well, or what to do if a dog suffers from severe separation anxiety.

On the flip-side, I doubt Dr Overall could tell you anything much about footstep-to-footstep tracking with a high-drive Malinois. So horses for courses.

Greetings to you Aidan2 thanking you for reposnse.

Yes, we do get behaviour problems in the sporting dog much is similar with the dog aggression, separation anxiety from the handler as happens for the family pet. The sporting dog he may have the high level of the prey drive, but he can also be a bit hyper activating for the drive to be satisfying, like he may chase is tail for the drive satisfaction, many silly things the high energy dog can do like the family pet too, so, many times the behavior specialising I am thinking maybe helpful for the sporting dog to overcome some problems. Some beuatiful sporting dog hes perfect but he scared of crisp packet that blow into the field is happens this things which is needing to work out how to fix him.

But, is not normally getting a behavior consultant to fix this things, but I am thinking maybe it could be an asset to when this type of things happen?

Joe

[JoeK]

If we talk about the stay from a calm dog, is my opinion that a dog if not calm will break stay. Hes must be calm to hold the stay, so if you training a solid stay, you train in automatic the calm too, is easy to do this. If the dog he coiled up like a spring ready to pounce like a tiger, hes bum lift off the ground first and you say NO SIT and we go again from beginning is how you stop the coild spring no worries and calm happens with the exercise other wise he not get his reward you see?. So, you dont needing to teach a calm and a stay, you teaching just the stay and the calm come too, yes?

Joe

[Aidan3]

Yes, we do get behaviour problems in the sporting dog much is similar with the dog aggression, separation anxiety from the handler as happens for the family pet. The sporting dog he may have the high level of the prey drive, but he can also be a bit hyper activating for the drive to be satisfying, like he may chase is tail for the drive satisfaction, many silly things the high energy dog can do like the family pet too, so, many times the behavior specialising I am thinking maybe helpful for the sporting dog to overcome some problems. Some beuatiful sporting dog hes perfect but he scared of crisp packet that blow into the field is happens this things which is needing to work out how to fix him.

But, is not normally getting a behavior consultant to fix this things, but I am thinking maybe it could be an asset to when this type of things happen?

Joe

Hi Joe, I think so. I think most behaviour specialists have an understanding of the working dog and we've all seen the more extreme examples of dogs from a variety of breeds. I, myself, own a working line GSD from the old East German lines so I feel that I have a good personal understanding of their special needs (but I know very little about sports!)

At the end of the day behaviour operates under principles that both the sporting expert and the behaviour specialist understand at some level. Some specialists, such as Dr Overall, also have a thorough knowledge of the medical side of behaviour (if they are veterinary behaviourists). I'm far better with reactive and aggressive dogs than I am at teaching pet manners or puppies, so we all have our special areas of expertise and areas where our learning has become "second nature" to us.

In the case of a good sporting dog who is afraid of a crisp packet blowing onto the field (and I've worked with a couple of these) a good understanding of counter-conditioning is essential. That is something that a sporting expert would have some understanding of, but a behaviour specialist would usually be more competent with.

I think we should always rule out medical problems, and sometimes drugs are the most effective solution, and a veterinary behaviourist is best in these cases. Sudden, unexplained aggression, and separation anxiety are two things I will refer straight away.

A good many dogs really wouldn't have a behaviour problem if they were having all their needs met, so I think the role of the sporting club is highly under-rated, particularly in Victoria where Schutzhund has been outlawed. There are always alternatives, but some dogs (and owners) thrive under those specific conditions.

[Aidan3]

If we talk about the stay from a calm dog, is my opinion that a dog if not calm will break stay. Hes must be calm to hold the stay, so if you training a solid stay, you train in automatic the calm too, is easy to do this. If the dog he coiled up like a spring ready to pounce like a tiger, hes bum lift off the ground first and you say NO SIT and we go again from beginning is how you stop the coild spring no worries and calm happens with the exercise other wise he not get his reward you see?. So, you dont needing to teach a calm and a stay, you teaching just the stay and the calm come too, yes?

Joe

I wish I had some video of my GSD when she was younger doing a several minute stay while she knew I had a ball or bite sleeve No breaking, but definitely not calm! Barely touching the ground

[JoeK]

Yes, we do get behaviour problems in the sporting dog much is similar with the dog aggression, separation anxiety from the handler as happens for the family pet. The sporting dog he may have the high level of the prey drive, but he can also be a bit hyper activating for the drive to be satisfying, like he may chase is tail for the drive satisfaction, many silly things the high energy dog can do like the family pet too, so, many times the behavior specialising I am thinking maybe helpful for the sporting dog to overcome some problems. Some beuatiful sporting dog hes perfect but he scared of crisp packet that blow into the field is happens this things which is needing to work out how to fix him.

But, is not normally getting a behavior consultant to fix this things, but I am thinking maybe it could be an asset to when this type of things happen?

Joe

Hi Joe, I think so. I think most behaviour specialists have an understanding of the working dog and we've all seen the more extreme examples of dogs from a variety of breeds. I, myself, own a working line GSD from the old East German lines so I feel that I have a good personal understanding of their special needs (but I know very little about sports!)

At the end of the day behaviour operates under principles that both the sporting expert and the behaviour specialist understand at some level. Some specialists, such as Dr Overall, also have a thorough knowledge of the medical side of behaviour (if they are veterinary behaviourists). I'm far better with reactive and aggressive dogs than I am at teaching pet manners or puppies, so we all have our special areas of expertise and areas where our learning has become "second nature" to us.

In the case of a good sporting dog who is afraid of a crisp packet blowing onto the field (and I've worked with a couple of these) a good understanding of counter-conditioning is essential. That is something that a sporting expert would have some understanding of, but a behaviour specialist would usually be more competent with.

I think we should always rule out medical problems, and sometimes drugs are the most effective solution, and a veterinary behaviourist is best in these cases. Sudden, unexplained aggression, and separation anxiety are two things I will refer straight away.

A good many dogs really wouldn't have a behaviour problem if they were having all their needs met, so I think the role of the sporting club is highly under-rated, particularly in Victoria where Schutzhund has been outlawed. There are always alternatives, but some dogs (and owners) thrive under those specific conditions.

Yes, I do understand your thoughts Aidan2 thanking you for your time. Beautiful East German Shepherd dog is fortunate to have hoping you enjoy what he offers?. With understanding on the Shepherd dog trait, sport is only set of rules after that for what the dog he need to do and the routine is the same so is not that hard to adapting when have the feeling on the dog and his limitations. Very much work in behavior is done for the sport like in Schutzhund because of different rountines, not all dogs can do all of them easily, maybe excellent in the biteworking, no good on the A board, he jumps off the side always, so hes little bit scared on the top, so we have to train him for how hes thinking in his head to get him past his fear. So yes, in the sporting dog you have to be head doctor for him too sometimes like the dog shrink to work out hes thinking and manipulate in the training around the problem to fix him.

Joe

[JoeK]

It's pretty much just my "Calming Yo Yo" protocol, with more distractions. Take one step away, return. Take two steps away, return. Take three steps, return. If dog gets up, ask him to down again, then return and start from one step away again. Once you're out of the room, start adding time rather than more steps. Once you can stay out of the room for a long time, start adding distractions, go about your normal daily tasks.

The beauty of the tether is that they can't really fail and go find something more reinforcing. You can also do with two dogs who don't get along, separated by an appropriate distance and strong enough tether. So in some cases I think it works where Overall's RP would be difficult. The two could go hand in hand.

I'm interested that you ask for a down for this Aidan2. When I teach tethering work I am careful to make sure that no sit/down/stay commands are given as once away from the dog it is too hard to control the dog breaking position. I just require that the dogs aren't pulling on the tether and barking.

That's probably qualitatively very similar, but I really do like them to be able to go to sleep and having a specific position is a bit more black and white for people. If they learn that you won't come back unless they are down, it's not so hard to get them to stay there. They usually break a few times early on, so you get the opportunity to show them this by having them down from a few steps away, and then you come back. If they are breaking when you go out of sight, you go right back to taking a single step, which is not stressful for them, they can relax.

I agree with Aidan2 on this point, the dog he needs command for walking away to do something, sit or drop is good. If you let him just stand there, is more chance he pull on the tether and bark in distraction and without commanding a job for him to do, is my opinion reliability is suffering long term. We have very strict club years ago where no barking allowed in the truck and if the dog barking in the truck they say is no control on the dog to be on the field, so we have to shut him up and is best when we commanding drop in the truck reliable and we block off if the truck has windows and he shut up and not bark and we get our go on the field for the judge.

Joe

[JoeK]

If we talk about the stay from a calm dog, is my opinion that a dog if not calm will break stay. Hes must be calm to hold the stay, so if you training a solid stay, you train in automatic the calm too, is easy to do this. If the dog he coiled up like a spring ready to pounce like a tiger, hes bum lift off the ground first and you say NO SIT and we go again from beginning is how you stop the coild spring no worries and calm happens with the exercise other wise he not get his reward you see?. So, you dont needing to teach a calm and a stay, you teaching just the stay and the calm come too, yes?

Joe

I wish I had some video of my GSD when she was younger doing a several minute stay while she knew I had a ball or bite sleeve No breaking, but definitely not calm! Barely touching the ground

Yes, I have disqualified few times and had bad score in obedience for this and I got caught once giving hand signal and sent from the field. How I stop this happening is walking back to the dog to give reward in the sitting position so he knoes that I come back to him and hes calm. If you release the dog in drive to come to you for reward, he sit coiled up with no relax as hes waiting for release to run to you. I train this with food is better than the toy on a high drive dog I am finding and if you pre training dog to take food gently and not snap off your hand, is system working beautiful.

Joe

[Aidan3]

so hes little bit scared on the top, so we have to train him for how hes thinking in his head to get him past his fear. So yes, in the sporting dog you have to be head doctor for him too sometimes like the dog shrink to work out hes thinking and manipulate in the training around the problem to fix him.

Yes, very true.

And thank you for asking about my DDR bitch, she is a wonderful dog, many good qualities and she is very caring and considerate of my young daughter. Not without her problems, mostly health issues, and for a while there, fairly severe dog aggression. But she has managed to pull herself together, and is always good fun to work with.

[corvus]

I would be concerned that allowing the dog to move position whilst doing this calming could stuff up a formal stay later on.

Depends how you work your cues, maybe? We know dogs are outrageously good at discriminating, so if you do the relaxation work on a mat and allow them to move around as long as they don't leave the mat, then the mat becomes a cue. Personally, I try not to cue very much at all when I'm doing it. I want lying down or sitting and being calm to be a default state when they are on their mats. Eventually, just being sent to the mat should calm them. I think that people often pair it with a verbal cue and sometimes a smell as well so they always have some way to 'cue calm'. So if I wanted to train a formal stay and use "stay" as my cue, I just wouldn't use it in the relaxation protocol. There's no need to, right?

Having said all that, in my ideal world the dog should be calm enough that they naturally don't change positions anyway. I would still reward if they changed positions just to get more comfortable, but ultimately I think they should see the mat and go "time to relax" and get into a comfortable position from the start. Erik and Kivi are getting through entire sets now with just one cue at the start. They don't get up until they are told to at the end.

[Erny]

I don't really agree that obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours.

Where did I say that "obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours"?

Er.... here?

Erny :

But when you think about it, many and much of our obedience training goes to 'calming'.

You seem to have misunderstood. When "stay" is taught (I'm generalising) often the dog learns to relax as it begins to realise that it needs to wait until the release and that could be a while coming. When training "stay" for the sake of obedience, "calm" or "relaxation" might not be what's uppermost in your mind, but I think it does form a lot of good "stay" work, because a dog who is not calm, not relaxed, is a dog that might more easily break than a dog who is.

That is why I used the words "goes to calming" rather than training for stay for obedience purposes being about training in calm behaviours. But the first can and in my experience often does, lead to the other.

Anyway, I really regret that the point of my first post has been made to become so convoluted, so unless something else comes up in relation to what I've mentioned, I'll leave it at this. Hope this post is a bit more easily understood.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Erny

[corvus]

No, I get it, I just didn't realise you were only talking about stays. Maybe it's just the way I see it, but I tend to think stationary behaviours are inherently calming, and the longer it takes to get moving again the more calming they are. I like downs for Erik because it's always as though once he's in a down he takes a slightly longer breath and calms just a little bit. Sometimes it's only a fraction, but I think it's there. He can spring into action from a down very easily, but it's still that little bit slower than from a sit. It's much more noticeable with Kivi. A rule of thumb I was taught is you can tell how relaxed an animal is by how long it will take them to get up from the position they are in and moving. I think that tends to hold true, and it's why I cue downs for the relaxation protocol with Erik instead of sits. Kivi can sit. He doesn't need much help.

Personally, I like to have my dogs nice and calm when holding a stationary behaviour because I want them to feel comfortable in the position and not be anticipating the release. I know other people that aren't so fussy, though.

[Vickie]

Personally, I like to have my dogs nice and calm when holding a stationary behaviour because I want them to feel comfortable in the position and not be anticipating the release. I know other people that aren't so fussy, though.

my dog kind of looks like these in a stationary position

I think I need to be more fussy

Edited April 12, 2011 by Vickie

[JulesP]

Personally, I like to have my dogs nice and calm when holding a stationary behaviour because I want them to feel comfortable in the position and not be anticipating the release. I know other people that aren't so fussy, though.

my dog kind of looks like these in a stationery position

I think I need to be more fussy

Love it Vickie

[Vickie]

How bout this one? It's kinda relaxed

not quite stationary tho