Question For Behaviourists

[corvus]

Do you use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation in behaviour modification? I'm interested that in some circles it or something like it is held up as the general first step in behaviour modification, but it's not spoken about much in other circles.

[fbaudry]

I am not a behaviourist, but I can tell you from experience that it is used as a general first step in behaviour modification at SABS (Sydney Animal Behaviourist Services - Dr K. Seksell)... Happy to give you more details through PM if you wish!

[Jigsaw]

I use it if I feel it is warranted with a particular dog. I explain it, explain how it works, why it's good etc. Some think it's wonderful and do the work and you can see the change in the dog. Others just can't be bothered for various reasons.

[corvus]

Erik had to do Day 1 four times before he was ready for Day 2. I like it. I think it teaches good skills. Kivi loves it. He thinks it's the easiest way in the world to get treats. He'll sit for as long as it takes to get Erik through the set. He's a darling.

[Erny]

I do exercises similarly with the dogs I work with. In the teaching phase I give a lot of feed-back. As they get to understand what it is I want they naturally relax and grow confident and I don't need to provide as much consistent feed-back, until I alter something, then the feed-back increases again, until that too becomes a 'known'. I might not do it exactly as Karen Prior does, but it is not completely unlike it. But I don't call it a "protocol". It's just what I do. I don't even do it the same with every dog - I tend to do what I need to do in accordance with what dog I'm working with. I don't even consciously think to myself "hey, maybe I should try this or that protocol". I just work and I guess much of what I do is a sub-conscious reflex in accordance with what I recognise the dog needs. I do it in the name of training for obedience and I also train obedience in the name of "behaviour rehabilitation". Maybe it's because I don't have a PhD that I haven't written out an exact formula and attached a label to it . Watered down, it really is only about teaching, training and proofing phases of training stay work.

So whilst you might be asking who uses "Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol", there might not be many affirmative answers because there's a huge chance that many or all of them use the strategy, but in their own name and in their own albeit similar ways.

ETA: Karen refers to it as a "Relaxation Protocol". To me it is about teaching the dog 'stay' work and building up reliability in it.

ETA: In behaviour modification, I use whatever the dog knows/has been trained for, in any shape or form that I think will assist in changing unwanted behaviour. What I use depends on the behaviour, the intensity and how strong the trained skills are by comparison, and whether it fits the situation I'm in. If the dog doesn't have the skills, I use other techniques and in the meanwhile work on building skills (or tutoring owners to build the skills) that will assist in whatever problematic behaviour is being described/exhibited.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Erny

[aussielover]

Do you use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation in behaviour modification? I'm interested that in some circles it or something like it is held up as the general first step in behaviour modification, but it's not spoken about much in other circles.

just out of interest, can you tell me what it involves?

[Erny]

just out of interest, can you tell me what it involves?

Aussielover - it's just a day by day sequence of exercises.

First day is a sit for 5 seconds, then 10 seconds. A sit while you take a step back, return and then 2 steps back. A sit for 10 seconds whilst you take 2 steps to the right and return; 2 steps to the left and return.

It goes on and on for each day, each day expecting more of the dog and building the intensity gradually, until you are running around the dog; walking over the dog; going out of sight of the dog; humming (I tend to talk and sing - I want my dogs to learn to identify with the release command and not respond to me merely opening my mouth) and so on and so forth.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Erny

[aussielover]

just out of interest, can you tell me what it involves?

Aussielover - it's just a day by day sequence of exercises.

First day is a sit for 5 seconds, then 10 seconds. A sit while you take a step back, return and then 2 steps back. A sit for 10 seconds whilst you take 2 steps to the right and return; 2 steps to the left and return.

It goes on and on for each day, each day expecting more of the dog and building the intensity gradually, until you are running around the dog; walking over the dog; going out of sight of the dog; humming (I tend to talk and sing - I want my dogs to learn to identify with the release command and not respond to me merely opening my mouth) and so on and so forth.

Thanks Erny

It sounds like what we did in manners classes (a more advanced version of puppy class).

Although I thought the aim was to get a good sit/drop stay not for calming...

[Erny]

Although I thought the aim was to get a good sit/drop stay not for calming...

But when you think about it, many and much of our obedience training goes to 'calming'. Whether this is by way of the dog learning self-control; learning to 'settle'; learning to focus; .... all of these things can mean different things or the same. In some cases we might not teach the exercises with a view to the dog's emotional aspect - instead we teach it because we want these attributes in our dogs because they are handy. In other cases we might teach exercises because it provides the dog with mental stimulation, which in turn goes to all those other descriptions I've already mentioned (ie self-control etc). And in other cases, we might not particularly have need for the dog to exhibit the exercises for any purpose of our own, but they can go towards helping in the rehabilitation of a dog whose mind is too busy and doesn't know how to shut off and, of course, they can go towards helping the dog learn self-control in situations where otherwise self-control was not even in the dog's radar.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Erny

[corvus]

ETA: Karen refers to it as a "Relaxation Protocol". To me it is about teaching the dog 'stay' work and building up reliability in it.

Karen is very adamant that it is NOT a stay exercise. The dog is allowed to move around a little bit, they just have to be calm. For example, if Kivi wants to move from a sit to a down, he can and will still be rewarded. If Erik wants to get up and then sit down again, he can and he will still be rewarded. If he gets up and walks a circle around the coffee table he will not be rewarded. Most moving around he's likely to do is probably going to be displacement behaviour, even if it looks calm. The aim is to teach them they don't have to do anything. They can trust that whatever weirdness is going on, if they remain calm they will be rewarded. It is encouraged that once the basic protocol is finished, you extend it to other areas of the dog's life where it needs to learn to be more calm. I have a whole list of places and situations where I want to use it to help put Erik into a more sensible level of arousal.

It is often used in treating separation anxiety. Supposedly if done correctly it is very effective, but it's not always easy to get someone to do it properly. It takes a pretty big commitment.

You don't need a PhD to want to use a fairly standardised approach (or write it down). And just because you use a standardised approach it doesn't mean you apply it the same way every time. Gray Stafford says a good trainer always goes into a training session with a detailed plan... and then throws it out the window as soon as they are face to face with the animal. I've always liked this idea and found it to be very true. A plan gives confidence and direction to the trainer, but for me at least it is simply a framework. Something that guides me rather than a recipe to follow. I don't think anyone that uses the protocol for relaxation as a first step in behavioural modification applies it as is every time.

[Erny]

Karen is very adamant that it is NOT a stay exercise. The dog is allowed to move around a little bit, they just have to be calm. For example, if Kivi wants to move from a sit to a down, he can and will still be rewarded. If Erik wants to get up and then sit down again, he can and he will still be rewarded.

Unless she has changed the "Protocol" ??? ETA : I acknowledge that she does not intend it for the purpose of training a stay, but that is what it does. If you re-read my earlier post, I've already acknowledged that, although in different words.

...Do not let your dog be a jack-in-the-box. You must control the situation, and you must achieve that control by convincing the dog to defer to you. ... The two "stays" with the period between them will reinforce the dog that it cannot get up when it wants to - the dog must be released. ... A sample sequence follows : "Susie - sit - (3 to 5 second pause) - sit - (Susie sits) - good girl! - stay (start to give treat and dog gets up) - no! - (close hand over treat) - sit - (Susie sits) - stay - (3 to 5 second pause) - stay - good girl! - stay - (give treat) - okay!" (Dog is now allowed to get up and does so.) ... The Protocol ... It is preferable to reward the dog only for performing each task perfectly. ... The next time you do the task, the behaviour must be closer to perfect to be rewarded. ... The Protocol is a foundation for desensitizing and counterconditioning your dog to situations in which it reacts inappropriately. ...

As I said - this is stay work. The difference is that the stay work, once learnt, will be used to specifically assist in behaviour rehabilitation and it has been written as a program for that end, rather than a program for stay work (although I see one leading to the other and if necessary, vice versa) for stay work's sake. It is taught to the dog in the least stressful way. She does say to

... not push or pull on your dog or tug on its collar to get the dog to sit.... If you really believe that the dog needs some physical help in sitting, use a head collar.

NB : Mind you, as for the last, if the dog is not used to a head collar the wearing of this in itself could be a stressor.

ETA: Either way, I think I've answered the question which was the purpose behind this thread - from my pov anyway.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Erny

[corvus]

I acknowledge that she does not intend it for the purpose of training a stay, but that is what it does. If you re-read my earlier post, I've already acknowledged that, although in different words.

I don't disagree, but I think it is misleading to refer to it as stay training. A good stay might be a side effect, and the protocol might be helpful to stay training, but it's beside the point. I don't really agree that obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours. It's not a prerequisite to me that my dogs be calm while doing what they are told. Sometimes I like to see them do it with a great sense of excitement and joy. That's what keeps them coming back. The only thing I really want them to be calm about is a stay.

The Dog Scouts website says the following:

While it reads like a "stay" training drill, that is not the focus. The focus is on the state of relaxation in the dog. If the dog is not relaxed as you work through the steps, don't progress until the dog is able to relax a bit more than previously. The dog is welcome to change positions and even to walk away from the rewards being offered. Some dogs are too stimulated when clicks and treats are used. You may need to use a lower value reward or simply a smile and petting or massage to encourage the dog to relax.

I have seen similar things written by Leslie McDevitt, who was taught to use the protocol by Karen Overall.

[Aidan3]

I'm more like to suggest a long-down while tethered. Aim is for dog to stay asleep while you vacuum around him. I've not had any get that far, but I've come close.

[corvus]

How do you start out with a long down while tethered? I sure would love it if Erik could stay down while the cleaners vacuumed around him. We are still struggling with cleaners. He is less noisy while they are here than he used to be, but needs the Manners Minder to focus on to stay that way. Poor cleaners are a teensy bit scared of him.

[Aidan3]

How do you start out with a long down while tethered? I sure would love it if Erik could stay down while the cleaners vacuumed around him. We are still struggling with cleaners. He is less noisy while they are here than he used to be, but needs the Manners Minder to focus on to stay that way. Poor cleaners are a teensy bit scared of him.

It's pretty much just my "Calming Yo Yo" protocol, with more distractions. Take one step away, return. Take two steps away, return. Take three steps, return. If dog gets up, ask him to down again, then return and start from one step away again. Once you're out of the room, start adding time rather than more steps. Once you can stay out of the room for a long time, start adding distractions, go about your normal daily tasks.

The beauty of the tether is that they can't really fail and go find something more reinforcing. You can also do with two dogs who don't get along, separated by an appropriate distance and strong enough tether. So in some cases I think it works where Overall's RP would be difficult. The two could go hand in hand.

[Erny]

I don't disagree, but I think it is misleading to refer to it as stay training.

The point I made in my first post, Corvus was that in answer to your question, many trainer/behaviourists possibly do utilise stay training in the rehabilitation of unwanted dog behaviour but wouldn't necessarily put their hands up to say they use "Karen Overall's Protocol". If no-one put their hand up to say they do or don't use "Karen Overall's Protocol" you might draw two conclusions from that. One being that perhaps they don't know what "Karen Overall's Protocol" is and/or the second being that trainer/behaviourists don't use it.

When in fact, there's a fat chance they DO use it, but that it is not "Karen Overall's Protocol" but merely something that they do because they know how to do it.

A good stay might be a side effect, and the protocol might be helpful to stay training, but it's beside the point.

You're right - but I don't think it is a point I made? But perhaps this is your thought and not something you are projecting onto me .

I don't really agree that obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours.

Where did I say that "obedience training is strongly about training in calm behaviours"?

What I said was :

But when you think about it, many and much of our obedience training goes to 'calming'. Whether this is by way of the dog learning self-control; learning to 'settle'; learning to focus; .... all of these things can mean different things or the same. In some cases we might not teach the exercises with a view to the dog's emotional aspect - instead we teach it because we want these attributes in our dogs because they are handy. In other cases we might teach exercises because it provides the dog with mental stimulation, which in turn goes to all those other descriptions I've already mentioned (ie self-control etc). And in other cases, we might not particularly have need for the dog to exhibit the exercises for any purpose of our own, but they can go towards helping in the rehabilitation of a dog whose mind is too busy and doesn't know how to shut off and, of course, they can go towards helping the dog learn self-control in situations where otherwise self-control was not even in the dog's radar.

Getting a dog to learn (for example) stay work DOES have a spin off to self-control and calmness. Being excited in release mode can still contain an element of self control. So I don't really know what you're talking about, Corvus.

The point is that the exercise is such as we might train our dogs to stay in a command. Whether it is taught for that purpose or for the purpose of being able to use it for calm and control is beside the point.

Ergo (which is what I've been saying) the 'art' of a good reliable stay can and often is (for me, anyway) part of what I might do for dogs where I see its value in the rehabilitation of undesirable behaviour/s. So my answer to you would be yes - I do very similarly what Karen does, but not under the title of "Karen Overall's Protocol".

It's not a prerequisite to me that my dogs be calm while doing what they are told. Sometimes I like to see them do it with a great sense of excitement and joy. That's what keeps them coming back. The only thing I really want them to be calm about is a stay.

:D A contradiction in terms with what you've just said. We ARE talking about stay work. A good solid stay involves calm and self-control. I like the dogs I train to be calm while doing what they are told. "Calm" meaning not panicked; not all over the place. When my dog is in a sit, he is calm, not panicked and not all over the place (he can't be, if he's in a sit). But he can be looking forward to being released and/or to the treat/reward that will following because he is demonstrating a calm sit.

The Dog Scouts website says the following:

While it reads like a "stay" training drill, that is not the focus. The focus is on the state of relaxation in the dog. If the dog is not relaxed as you work through the steps, don't progress until the dog is able to relax a bit more than previously. The dog is welcome to change positions and even to walk away from the rewards being offered. Some dogs are too stimulated when clicks and treats are used. You may need to use a lower value reward or simply a smile and petting or massage to encourage the dog to relax.

Who are "The Dog Scouts" ? I don't think I've heard of them before. Anyway - that's neither here nor there, I guess. I can only tell you what the "Protocol" is from Karen Overall's book that I have. Apart from that, my further comment would be that I understand the "focus" is not that it is a stay training drill. But the point is, it IS a stay exercise, just that it will be used foremostly to assist in behaviour modification.

[Erny]

I'm more like to suggest a long-down while tethered. Aim is for dog to stay asleep while you vacuum around him. I've not had any get that far, but I've come close.

Lol ..... my previous (avatar) girl, "Kal" (bhcs) used to continue to sleep whilst being vacuumed around. When I first adopted her she was quite panicked about the vacuum, but I cured that. Too well, it seems ..... because it almost became a pain in the that she wouldn't volunteer to move out of the way.

[JulesP]

It's pretty much just my "Calming Yo Yo" protocol, with more distractions. Take one step away, return. Take two steps away, return. Take three steps, return. If dog gets up, ask him to down again, then return and start from one step away again. Once you're out of the room, start adding time rather than more steps. Once you can stay out of the room for a long time, start adding distractions, go about your normal daily tasks.

The beauty of the tether is that they can't really fail and go find something more reinforcing. You can also do with two dogs who don't get along, separated by an appropriate distance and strong enough tether. So in some cases I think it works where Overall's RP would be difficult. The two could go hand in hand.

I'm interested that you ask for a down for this Aidan2. When I teach tethering work I am careful to make sure that no sit/down/stay commands are given as once away from the dog it is too hard to control the dog breaking position. I just require that the dogs aren't pulling on the tether and barking.

[Aidan3]

It's pretty much just my "Calming Yo Yo" protocol, with more distractions. Take one step away, return. Take two steps away, return. Take three steps, return. If dog gets up, ask him to down again, then return and start from one step away again. Once you're out of the room, start adding time rather than more steps. Once you can stay out of the room for a long time, start adding distractions, go about your normal daily tasks.

The beauty of the tether is that they can't really fail and go find something more reinforcing. You can also do with two dogs who don't get along, separated by an appropriate distance and strong enough tether. So in some cases I think it works where Overall's RP would be difficult. The two could go hand in hand.

I'm interested that you ask for a down for this Aidan2. When I teach tethering work I am careful to make sure that no sit/down/stay commands are given as once away from the dog it is too hard to control the dog breaking position. I just require that the dogs aren't pulling on the tether and barking.

That's probably qualitatively very similar, but I really do like them to be able to go to sleep and having a specific position is a bit more black and white for people. If they learn that you won't come back unless they are down, it's not so hard to get them to stay there. They usually break a few times early on, so you get the opportunity to show them this by having them down from a few steps away, and then you come back. If they are breaking when you go out of sight, you go right back to taking a single step, which is not stressful for them, they can relax.

[Lablover]

Do you use Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation in behaviour modification? I'm interested that in some circles it or something like it is held up as the general first step in behaviour modification, but it's not spoken about much in other circles.

just out of interest, can you tell me what it involves?

Corvus, why do your dogs not already relax? How old are they?

I attended a conference, Karen Overall and her husband, were speakers.

You can google or start with this youtube link: