Off-lead Recall

[poodlefan]

PQM:

"My instructor told me to practice with a fence or something behind me but he seems to love showing off in front of the class because whenever we practice alone he is always perfect."

'Whenever we practice alone he is always perfect', suggests to me that the dog is perfectly aware of what is required. A correction is simply informing the dog (not punishing) that yes, even here in front of everbody, you are still required to perform correctly.

You say "perfectly aware of what is required". I say, "not proofed to perform the recall under higher levels of distraction". We look through different windows at the world of dog training PQM. I can respect that your views are different but remain concerned at the level of 'harshness' that you consider appropriate in some circumstances.

I see dog and handler as a team, each with their own responsiblities. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen dogs held responsible for not reacting to poor signals, late signals etc, both in obedience and agility. To me the handler always retains responsiblity for cueing the dog at the right time and in a way that allows the dog to perform at its best.

I am NOT averse to physical corrections and I understand enough of your philosophy to see that you do not 'punish' as the correction is applied unemotionally. We will have to disagree on this points - but I can accept that your methods would work in some circumstances.

However, I'll make my original point again. Long lines, abrupt stops and whippets are an extremely dangerous combination.

Edited February 21, 2005 by poodlefan

[pgm]

PoodleFan: To me the handler always retains responsiblity for cueing the dog at the right time and in a way that allows the dog to perform at its best.

pgm: I agree. And agree to disagree on the rest.

[yogibear]

Hi all

Ok as some one who owns a whippet and trials dont let him hit the end of the lead whippets arent stupid but once they build up speed or get excited they forget them selves and i have seen a very nasty injury by someone doing that very thing average dogs run half as fast as a whippet remeber that Now he is young exuberant and having a ball of a time id go to where you get the reliable recall and build it up from there as someone wlse said also use different voice and body language for you in the park stuff where you may need to call him when he is at high speed but it wont matter if he circles you your not at a trial.

Mine comes so hard his butt lifts in the air as he puts on the brakes also use good food running is very rewarding to a whippet and make sure he isnt getting tense in class a stressed whippet will want to race to relive the pressure. hope this helps

yb

[yogibear]

Poodlefan wrote However, I'll make my original point again. Long lines, abrupt stops and whippets are an extremely dangerous combination.

Yes they are a whippet can travel up to 67 kms an hour that is soo much faster than other dogs a friend of mine just lost her dog to a broken neck because he was running at high speed and stopped abru[tly because of another dog going across him he flipped landed on his neeck and it snapped It was a very sad accident but still it shows the pressure on their neck when they hit something at high speed

[sidoney]

I agree with poodlefan about distractions. From on his own to in front of a class is a big jump.

I'd be "taking the show on the road" - practicing the recall in different environments and increasing levels of distraction. You can also set up distractions at home, eg. recall past a food bowl (start with it far away or covered or something - I have used a container with holes in the top so the smell is there but food can't be eaten), recall while you or someone else is throwing a ball, or whatever will distract the dog. Start low distraction and build it up. Self control, yes, but by teaching it to keep its mind on what you have asked for it, that coming is more fun than doing something else. When you have a dog that will perform despite distractions, then you have a more reliable behaviour.

BTW I am training my Kelpie pup to wait until a verbal release, and give me eye contact before being released. Very important for lead outs in agility and high drive dogs can find it difficult. This requires self control. We started it at home and have taken it on the road, and increased distraction level. We have been practicing it in the park on the other side of a fence where two cattle dogs threaten to murder us - started further away and got closer. She can also wait while I scatter a heap of cut up yummy treats in front of her, then walk away a bit, then release her to eat them. I started this by having one treat in my hand, then on the ground, then a few, then throwing them - you get the idea. This puppy is under 5 months old. Gradually built up the distractions. I have corrected her - it consisted of, she got up as I scattered food, I put my leg in between her and the food, asked her to sit, rewarded the sit, had eye contact, gave verbal release to get the food. She'll do it for toys as well. We are building up duration of eye contact. Recall - also building that up over distance and distractions, each factor separately.

[aatainc]

One thing which people do with their pups that puzzles me is this: Firstly, they start teaching the recall on lead, instead of off. What's with that? Secondly, when they do finally go off lead, they start with teeny tiny distances and then build up. While this makes sense according to behaviourist's philsophy I actually believe it works against the dog's natural instincts.

Think about it. You put dog on lead, call him to you. Why should he come? He doesn't need to come - he's got you on a lead - he knows exactly where you are - why should he come over? No reason. If you pull the dog in with the lead he is not only learning that the lead is the only way you can get him in (therefore watch out when you take it off) but also you are triggering his opposition reflex so he is likely to pull against you. So you use food to get it. Fine. Then when you take the lead off - the dog doesn't recognise the exercise!

"'Come;' what's that?" he asks. " we only do "come" on lead. You mustn't really mean the same thing because there's no lead this time. Besides - you can't make me anymore. Quick, let's do a runner while I'm free!"

Then there's that tiny distance thing. And people do it over and over. What's the point? Why should the dog come to you when he's only a metre away in the first place? Not only is this unecessary in the dog's mind, but he has no desire to repeat it over and over again because it's BORING! so, once again, people have to show him food to get him to do it. THIS is exactly how so many people end up with dogs that run away as soon as they do long recalls - or dogs that won't come unless there's food.

The trick is to use the dog's natural instincts - while he is young - before he has the mental capacity or desire to run away. Use that bit of separation anxiety and anticipation that most pups have to some degree. When I teach recalls, I do them either really long distances within sight, or shorter distances out of sight (like around a corner.) I of course still only do them in controlled environments for safety.

Get someone else to hold pup in one room. You give him a pat and make sure he watches you go. Tease him a bit if need be by running or skipping away down the hall and into a different room. Wait a minute. Call him and get other person to let go. Make it really exciting, encouraging him to "run!" Now this time when you call him - he's got real reason to come over to you. He doesn't know where you've gone. You might be doing something exciting without him! What's worse - you've left him all alone and he doesn't like that! So yes, he'll be glad to come. THEN, AFTER he has come most of the way, you can use the food to lure him into a nice sit if you need that taught. I crouch down to "funnel" the dog into me with body language, and ony produce food after he has come in. But I do produce food on a regular basis as a reward - but I don't let my dogs know I have it before I've done the recall.

I taught the first puppy I owned to stay before I taught him to come. His stay was really reliable very early on - I worked very hard on it. Anyway, the first time I did recalls I took him down to a huge fenced park, at the tender age of 14 weeks or so, and put him on a drop stay with my mum watching him. I walked SO FAR away I could barely see him. It was over 100m. (There's a running track there so I know.) Then I called him, encouraging him to "come on, RUN!!!" Boy did he fly in. That's how we did our recalls for months. I'd take him out, put him on a long down or sit, walk away as far as I could, then call him. This way, he got more anxious as I left him, so more desirous of coming to me, so I was guaranteed that he wouldnt' run anywhere but to me. After a week or so, he had worked out the game - and he loved it. He loved the thrill of the run in the first place - plus the reward at the end of course which for him was usually just a belly rub. He not only got to really enjoy the recall, but he LOVES doing stays as well. As soon as I put him on a stay he gets very attentive, waiting for the running to me bit. If I return to him, that's ok, but he almost looks dissappointed! and he NEVER did a recall on lead, and he's NEVER missed a recall.

I have done this with all of my pups. Kodak here, just been with us for 4 days, has been doing recalls down the hall. I run down the hall all excited while hubby holds him, then he follows on the command "come'. He's doing very well. I was also very concerned with my pointer, Solo, that he may start doing runners on me. I would always have bikkies in my pockets and did long recalls just like this. I never did one on lead, not even once. Took him to puppy preschool at the obedience club the first night. After class, he needed to go to the toilet but he wouldn't go on lead. The place isn't fenced but i figured he wouldn't go far. WRONG. Let him off and he took off - towards the other dogs on the otehr side of the field. Half way across I gathered my wits and called out "come!" He was running full pelt. But he spun on a ten cent piece and flew in - he got a chicken neck for his efforts too. From that day on he's been trusted off lead and has never let me down. Ashanali can testify that at the DOLer's BBQ at her place in december he came back instantly a number of times from the other side of her big yard while he was playing with other dogs.

For your whippet - I would have thought this would have been a logical thing to do. He loves to run, right? So, make the recall a race for a while. Take him to a big fenced area, leave him on the longest stay imaginable,then call him, get excited, encourage him to run as fast as he can as he gets closer get right down on the ground for him. give him a big cuddle when he gets right to you. Don't worry about the sit for a while. The recall in general is much more important. Once you have him coming directly to you you can put the sit back in there with some luring. Get together with a friend and have recall races - first dog to get to his owner "wins". This sort of enthusiasm, rather than just standing there waiting for the sit, is much more effective. Make the run part of coming to you rather than running around you. I used to run my dog on the race track at that oval. HE could do a 100m recall faster than the olympic athletes!

I know a lot of people will disagree with this approach to teaching the recall but it hasn't failed me yet (for the dogs that I did this with from the beginning - yes I have had some dogs raised by other people who's recalls left a lot to be desired at first but they were all trained using traditional recall methods.) I think recall is one of the quickest behaviours to get if you use the dog's natural instincts like this.

[Guest Tracey and Dakota]

This was my Siberian Husky 12 months ago and we could not get out of top grade, so I had to re-shape the problem.

The aim of the game is success, if we keep letting the dog fail it will just keep up the bad habit. Go back to basics, shorten the distance and if you think the dog is going to break, release it before it can, that way you have given the ok for it to move not the other way round.

I used a clicker and shaped her to touch my food pouch with her nose when I put 2 fingers on the pouch. I then went back to practicing the recall at a short distance and would place my fingers on the food pouch. She runs up, sits and hits my food pouch now and we finally passed.

I can now recall her from any distance and any location, as she loves to hit that food pouch! You would need to get rid of the pouch for trialing.

[kdf]

Perfect this week!

I got there early and took him for a walk right across the oval (it's pretty big). We were just goofing around, playing and stuff. There are some big concrete tunnels left over from a kids playground and we played around going through them, him waiting in a sit on the other side until I called him through (he loves the tunnel).

It was pretty hot yesterday which may have had something to do with it too but I feel I have more options now and that we'll get there in time.

We started learning to sit up from a drop with a hand signal from a distance last night. He is picking this up really quickly.

Thanks for all the help

[kdf]

We upgraded to grade 5 this week

Thanks again for the help.