Reasons To Desex A Male Dog

[poodlefan]

I have a good understanding of the benefits that desexing can bring to dogs, and the undesirable behaviours that testosterone can encourage.

If you really think that you have a greater understanding than I do of the changes in behaviour of adult dogs after desexing you are going to have to do a lot better than 'dogma' and 'bullshit' to make that clear. Testosterone and its effects are not bullshit.

I'm neither interested nor engaged in a pissing contest about whose knowledge or management of dogs is superior. Interesting that its the second time you've suggested that this is what's occuring. Not at this end, that's for sure.

I haven't suggested anything you've said is bullshit or dogma. I have suggested that many of the reasons trotted out in desexing arguments are that. I listed examples of such "bullshit".

Let's hark back to the post that started this thread

Some of you may have read this thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=217664 where I said I was doing some training with an elderly gentleman and his dog as he (the dog) is big and strong and pulling his owner everywhere.

I had suggested desexing (along with our training) to help.

Help how? we asked.

One response was that the dog wouldn't grow to be as strong.

It's an adult dog!

Then there was this:

I also worry that if he is being walked and comes across a female on heat he may pull his owner over to get to the female.

Many people posted that this wasnt' their experience with entire males.

You're arguing one thing and I'm arguing another. I"m certainly not arguing against desexing pet dogs. I'm not saying desexing has not effect on dogs. What I'm saying is that desexing with the expectation that an operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour is unlikely, particularly on an already mature dog. I'm also saying that any view of all entire males dogs as hard to handle is flawed.

If this owner needs to be convinced to remove his dogs testicles, arguments with some factual basis should be used.

Honestly, if people want to remove every vaguely male behaviour from a dog (and gee some folk seem to) I wonder why they buy males in the first place.

Edited April 12, 2011 by poodlefan

[jacqui835]

I have a good understanding of the benefits that desexing can bring to dogs, and the undesirable behaviours that testosterone can encourage.

If you really think that you have a greater understanding than I do of the changes in behaviour of adult dogs after desexing you are going to have to do a lot better than 'dogma' and 'bullshit' to make that clear. Testosterone and its effects are not bullshit.

I'm neither interested nor engaged in a pissing contest about whose knowledge or management of dogs is superior. Interesting that its the second time you've suggested that this is what's occuring. Not at this end, that's for sure.

I haven't suggested anything you've said is bullshit or dogma. I have suggested that many of the reasons trotted out in desexing arguments are that. I listed examples of such "bullshit".

Let's hark back to the post that started this thread

Some of you may have read this thread http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=217664 where I said I was doing some training with an elderly gentleman and his dog as he (the dog) is big and strong and pulling his owner everywhere.

I had suggested desexing (along with our training) to help.

Help how? we asked.

One response was that the dog wouldn't grow to be as strong.

It's an adult dog!

Then there was this:

I also worry that if he is being walked and comes across a female on heat he may pull his owner over to get to the female.

Many people posted that this wasnt' their experience with entire males.

You're arguing one thing and I'm arguing another. I"m certainly not arguing against desexing pet dogs. I'm not saying desexing has not effect on dogs. What I'm saying is that desexing with the expectation that an operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour is unlikely, particularly on an already mature dog. I'm also saying that any view of all entire males dogs as hard to handle is flawed.

If this owner needs to be convinced to remove his dogs testicles, arguments with some factual basis should be used.

Honestly, if people want to remove every vaguely male behaviour from a dog (and gee some folk seem to) I wonder why they buy males in the first place.

Great post, covered everything and worded better than I could have :D

[Crisovar]

The first most responsible thing you can do as a dog owner is TRAIN your dog.

Untrained it doesn't matter how many testicles the damn thing has, it will be a nuisance on four legs.

[Greytmate]

You're arguing one thing and I'm arguing another. I"m certainly not arguing against desexing pet dogs. I'm not saying desexing has not effect on dogs. What I'm saying is that desexing with the expectation that an operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour is unlikely, particularly on an already mature dog. I'm also saying that any view of all entire males dogs as hard to handle is flawed.

I have posted studies that suggest that you might need to rethink that. I don't think what you are saying is accurate or helpful. Desexing alone is not being suggested, desexing in conjunction with training is what has been suggested to help this man with his dog.

Maybe you could find some studies that back up your opinion, instead of arguing with me, accusing people of bullshit and dogma, and then claiming to be having a different argument.

Nobody has put forward the view that all males are hard to handle. But this dog is. All of the reasons I have given to have it desexed are valid, and I have given some evidence to back it up. Hopefully RF will use that to convince the person to desex this dog.

[poodlefan]

Nobody has put forward the view that all males are hard to handle. But this dog is. All of the reasons I have given to have it desexed are valid, and I have given some evidence to back it up. Hopefully RF will use that to convince the person to desex this dog.

Where's the evidence that this dog is hard to handle because it has testicles? If it isn't, how will desexing make it easier to handle? That was the core issue for me.

The studies that provide evidence of the impact on desexing on bone density, growth rates etc have been posted here on many occasions. The impact on temperament is also posted. The fact that I didn't refer to them doesn't mean they don't exist.

In view of your antagonism and continued propensity to take my arguments as somehow directed at you personally, I think I'll just leave you to it.

Edited April 13, 2011 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

Nobody has put forward the view that all males are hard to handle. But this dog is. All of the reasons I have given to have it desexed are valid, and I have given some evidence to back it up. Hopefully RF will use that to convince the person to desex this dog.

And did you read the part it was difficult to handle because it was untrained? Majority of its problems seem to be lack of proper manners and training not the fact is has a set of balls.

Temperament of an animal comes down to genetics and upbringing more then just being entire or desexed. There are plenty of desexed dogs out there who show the same traits as entire animals either through learning or through their lines. And believe it or not some people prefer the personality of an entire animal, has a bit more pep from the testosterone then the desexed ones can. I prefer it and I dont think I'm likely to own a desexed one again soon.

If vasectomies became more popular in Australia and vets actually bothered to do them we might be in the right direction of helping prevent unwanted litters. Instead of throwing beratement down peoples throats, if they want a dog with a big shiny set, fine. Vasectomise so at least they wont cause unwanted litters.

As for the excuses of escape, aggression, picking fights etc that has all to do with owner responsibility and little to solely blame on being entire.

[jacqui835]

Nobody has put forward the view that all males are hard to handle. But this dog is. All of the reasons I have given to have it desexed are valid, and I have given some evidence to back it up. Hopefully RF will use that to convince the person to desex this dog.

And did you read the part it was difficult to handle because it was untrained? Majority of its problems seem to be lack of proper manners and training not the fact is has a set of balls.

Temperament of an animal comes down to genetics and upbringing more then just being entire or desexed. There are plenty of desexed dogs out there who show the same traits as entire animals either through learning or through their lines. And believe it or not some people prefer the personality of an entire animal, has a bit more pep from the testosterone then the desexed ones can. I prefer it and I dont think I'm likely to own a desexed one again soon.

If vasectomies became more popular in Australia and vets actually bothered to do them we might be in the right direction of helping prevent unwanted litters. Instead of throwing beratement down peoples throats, if they want a dog with a big shiny set, fine. Vasectomise so at least they wont cause unwanted litters.

As for the excuses of escape, aggression, picking fights etc that has all to do with owner responsibility and little to solely blame on being entire.

Again beautifully said and exactly what I was trying to convey. I think the key point to take from this is that a lot of people here (myself included) don't think that people should be told to desex their dogs to fix behavioural problems - I for one have seen this happen several times, and then seen the resulting disappointment when they still have the same problems, only now they've forked out several 100 dollars and their dog requires a new management plan to retain it's figure (most of them seem to get fatter) and the coat isn't as pretty.

It's not fair to say to someone with an entire dog that desexing would make their dog 'better' - less likely to play up, less likely to pull on the lead, more obedient etc. It's just not true.

[hortfurball]

You're arguing one thing and I'm arguing another. I"m certainly not arguing against desexing pet dogs. I'm not saying desexing has not effect on dogs. What I'm saying is that desexing with the expectation that an operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour is unlikely, particularly on an already mature dog. I'm also saying that any view of all entire males dogs as hard to handle is flawed.

I have posted studies that suggest that you might need to rethink that.

You may want to read your studies again then, because according to your studies, between 40% and 65% of people (depending on which problematic behaviours are being addressed) are going to be disappointed if they desex their dog with the expectation that the operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour. I don't think that supports your argument at all.

Nobody has put forward the view that all males are hard to handle. But this dog is. All of the reasons I have given to have it desexed are valid, and I have given some evidence to back it up.

Other than pulling on the lead, who says that this dog is hard to handle? The studies do not support a desexing argument for this dog for the purposes of controlling behaviour - nowhere in the studies does it mention the issue of pulling on the lead or the effect of desexing on that issue.

Before you think that I am having a go at you or arguing against desexing, look at my first post in this thread, where I gave reasons that it might help to have this dog desexed based on my own experience. The only issue I have is the relevance of your arguments to this particular case, as outlined above and in my previous post, which you did not address.

[JoeK]

I see this many times where the dog he out of control and is a pest so we desex him and training him which goes in both hands, desex and the train yes?

When is behavior improving they say isn't this desexing beautiful look at is behaving now?

But is not from the desexing his behavior improve is the bloody training which happen the same if he got his hormone or he hasnt becuase what improve him is the training. I tearing my hair on this before is not the desexing, the training on any dog over riding hormones even in the drive to mate with nice girl, my Shepherd Dogs come to my heel no worries and forget the nice girl to believe the dog is uncontrolled rapist on season bitch is bull. Most of the young dog he don't know how to do it anyway and take him long time to work him out the birds and the bees. Is not like there is nice girl and all hell she braking loose, he have look a bit of a sniff but if he trained properly and command heir, he come no worries into heel position piece of cake.

Joe

[Greytmate]

I see this many times where the dog he out of control and is a pest so we desex him and training him which goes in both hands, desex and the train yes?

It often goes hand in hand.

Desexing removes or reduces sex drive. Reduction of drive can make training much easier or faster because the drive to display certain behaviours is no longer as strong in the dog. Dog likely to end up better behaved/easier to manage for Mr Average dog owner.

You may want to read your studies again then, because according to your studies, between 40% and 65% of people (depending on which problematic behaviours are being addressed) are going to be disappointed if they desex their dog with the expectation that the operation alone will eliminate unwanted behaviour. I don't think that supports your argument at all.

Why would they have that expectation? Nobody here is saying not to train the dog, and nothing is guaranteed to eliminate problem behaviour. To stop training is not my argument at all.

They should go in with the expectation that desexing is likely to reduce some problematic behaviours and avoid others, and that they will also have to train their dog to get the behaviour they do want from it. The studies back this up, It is only your illogical interpretation of them doesn't.

And believe it or not some people prefer the personality of an entire animal, has a bit more pep from the testosterone then the desexed ones can.

I do believe it. But given that this owner is having trouble handling his dog, he might not value the pep as much as you do, hence the suggestion to desex it.

[Odin-Genie]

And believe it or not some people prefer the personality of an entire animal, has a bit more pep from the testosterone then the desexed ones can.

If there is a correlation between desexing and personality of a dog, then wouldn't it be logical to say that desexing would affect the personality of a dog? Not a replacement for training, obviously, but make training easier?

I know that a lot of people on DOL prefer to keep entire dogs without any problems, even if they are not shown or bred. But the average dog owner can not be compared to the DOL population. All the entire dogs I have come across (except for dog shows) have been trouble-makers or trouble-magnets. And even if the problem is the lack of training in other dogs who react badly to entire dogs, it would still mean trouble for an average dog owner who does not belong to any training clubs but prefers the local dog park.

I am all for desexing pet dogs.

[Nekhbet]

If there is a correlation between desexing and personality of a dog, then wouldn't it be logical to say that desexing would affect the personality of a dog? Not a replacement for training, obviously, but make training easier?

I should word myself a little better. The overall inherent personality of the dog will not change. Testosterone can give an extra level of zing to some personality traits like territoriality, dominance, tenacity etc but also once learned that dog will keep those habits to a degree even after a late desexing. Desexing only makes a major change when there is too much testosterone and it is driving the dog into behaviours such as picking fights, extreme dominance, extreme territoriality etc. Testosterone itself is not the only factor in causing 'unwanted' behaviours but can aggrevate innate behaviours to be at a higher level. If you have a well bred dog with a good temperament then really what is there to change? If you have an aggressive, nasty dog well 1) it should be out of the gene pool any way and 2) the extra testosterone will be a millstone around your neck.

One example - bull breed x with a set of nuts the size of oranges while still a pup/adolescent. Showing major territoriality traits when out of home. Desexed, calm within a few weeks. Testosterone fuelled that behaviour, yes. But it didnt just materialise out of nowhere either did it? Do you think some genetics could have been involved?

If people want quiet family pets they should choose breeds and lines specifically bred as COMPANIONS with low to no drive and no guarding instinct. That is what makes the difference not if the dog has a set of nuts or not.

I want testosterone because I want that extra push behind what some people call unwanted behaviours. Training is the majority that gets that snowball rolling, but the hormones help it along.

But the average dog owner can not be compared to the DOL population. All the entire dogs I have come across (except for dog shows) have been trouble-makers or trouble-magnets. And even if the problem is the lack of training in other dogs who react badly to entire dogs, it would still mean trouble for an average dog owner who does not belong to any training clubs but prefers the local dog park.

The only time I will suggest a client desex their dog is if they show behavioural traits that are a problem in society - aggression, extreme dominance, picking fights etc, the behaviours are limiting the dogs/owners ability to live a normal life and they are not a dog for breeding. Apart from that if the owner can control their dog and it's trained and socialised then frankly, it is their own business if they desex or not. I provide people with information and they can take it or leave it. But I dont believe in forcing someone to do something just because I believe thats the way life should be in general.

'Average owners' with untrained and unsocialised brat dogs will caused problems desexed or not. Any desexed dog that goes up to an entire dog and picks a fight has problems. Vice versa. I think the bigger problem lies in the fact we expect some dogs and some breeds to behave like we all gather around a campfire and sing KoombahYah together in peace and harmony - they're dogs. They wont always get along with others all the time. Mass desexing is not going to change that.

I do believe it. But given that this owner is having trouble handling his dog, he might not value the pep as much as you do, hence the suggestion to desex it.

Let the owner try training, and if it's not progressing that well due to confirmed testosterone fuelled problems then desex. If the dogs just a pain in the butt because it's never had training and old habits die hard then pushing to desex wont make a difference will it?

[Crisovar]

'

Average owners' with untrained and unsocialised brat dogs will caused problems desexed or not. Any desexed dog that goes up to an entire dog and picks a fight has problems. Vice versa. I think the bigger problem lies in the fact we expect some dogs and some breeds to behave like we all gather around a campfire and sing KoombahYah together in peace and harmony - they're dogs. They wont always get along with others all the time. Mass desexing is not going to change that.

[rastus_froggy]

Thanks for all the replies, I have been away and had no internet access for a few weeks, I have learnt a lot through this and there have been some very interesting thigs brought up here.

Think I may have mentioned this before, the only reason Browny has not been desexed is because the vet told his owner that in the future he would get fat if he was desexed and not walked enough. I don't thin that is a decent argument, as an entire male would get just as fat with not enough exercise as well wouldn't it?

I will pop over tomorrow and see how Browny and his owner are doing.

[Pudel]

We had an entire curly coat. He was trained (to a degree) he sat, came when called, dropped, went out when told. He was allowed inside during the day, but most nights slept in a run with a kennel and good size outdoor yard. It was fenced to 9 feet high, with concrete reinforcing. This was a good setup or so we though until a person we knew down the road rang late one night to say our dog had gotten over his back fence and was after his bitch who was in heat. The bitch in question was a Jack Russell, not a good option for a large dog to go over a dog that size. The other thing was in his intent to get to the bitch he climbed over 9 feet of reo, and scratched himself to bits. His wounds healed ok (did not need stitches, but needed to be washed and dressed and he was on antibiotics. We had him desexed and he never went after another bitch on heat. I must admit when he died he was a touch heavy. Not hugely overweight, but with arthritis slowing him down his waist expanded a little.

As I have no desire to breed dogs, I would desex any dog we have, when they are fully grown.

[Gayle.]

I have a young entire male, destined to be a stud dog for his breeder, so he will remain entire. He is well trained, well behaved and he's a real sweetie pie. Thinks he's a lap dog and loves a snuggle.

When he was 10 months old, my bitch came into season, and about a week later my boy's brains went out the window, his balls took their place. It was like watching a movie in high speed fast forward, with the sound turned up. He went from a quiet, placid boy to a screaming, SCREAMING bundle of unfulfilled desire. He tried to climb a tree to get over the brick wall to the courtyard where the object of his desire was placed out of harms way. He barely ate for a week, and paced, howled, screamed, jumped, and did everything he could to get in that courtyard. He lost a heap of weight and he's only just started to regain it now, 2 months later.

My neutered boy was in the courtyard keeping the bitch in season company. He was quiet, placid and peaceful. Don't tell me testosterone doesn't make a difference because it most CERTAINLY does.

The bitch will be desexed before her next season, because I can't desex the male (he is co-owned and I show him) and I have no desire to live through that again.

[Sayreovi]

I have a young entire male, destined to be a stud dog for his breeder, so he will remain entire. He is well trained, well behaved and he's a real sweetie pie. Thinks he's a lap dog and loves a snuggle.

When he was 10 months old, my bitch came into season, and about a week later my boy's brains went out the window, his balls took their place. It was like watching a movie in high speed fast forward, with the sound turned up. He went from a quiet, placid boy to a screaming, SCREAMING bundle of unfulfilled desire. He tried to climb a tree to get over the brick wall to the courtyard where the object of his desire was placed out of harms way. He barely ate for a week, and paced, howled, screamed, jumped, and did everything he could to get in that courtyard. He lost a heap of weight and he's only just started to regain it now, 2 months later.

My neutered boy was in the courtyard keeping the bitch in season company. He was quiet, placid and peaceful. Don't tell me testosterone doesn't make a difference because it most CERTAINLY does.

The bitch will be desexed before her next season, because I can't desex the male (he is co-owned and I show him) and I have no desire to live through that again.

I agree with you in this GayleK, we went through the exact same situation not that long ago including having the behaviour of the entire male before and during I ended up sending him away for a few days during the height of her season as he worked himself into a frenzy and I didn't want an accidental litter of father/daughter pups!

My neutered boy, who was desexed at 3 years and had previously been around bitches in season, stayed with her the entire season and showed no inclination what so ever. She would flag in front of him, he just kept walking past ignoring her........this was a male who when entire apparantly had a high sex drive

[geo]

If there is a correlation between desexing and personality of a dog, then wouldn't it be logical to say that desexing would affect the personality of a dog? Not a replacement for training, obviously, but make training easier?

I should word myself a little better. The overall inherent personality of the dog will not change. Testosterone can give an extra level of zing to some personality traits like territoriality, dominance, tenacity etc but also once learned that dog will keep those habits to a degree even after a late desexing. Desexing only makes a major change when there is too much testosterone and it is driving the dog into behaviours such as picking fights, extreme dominance, extreme territoriality etc. Testosterone itself is not the only factor in causing 'unwanted' behaviours but can aggrevate innate behaviours to be at a higher level. If you have a well bred dog with a good temperament then really what is there to change? If you have an aggressive, nasty dog well 1) it should be out of the gene pool any way and 2) the extra testosterone will be a millstone around your neck.

One example - bull breed x with a set of nuts the size of oranges while still a pup/adolescent. Showing major territoriality traits when out of home. Desexed, calm within a few weeks. Testosterone fuelled that behaviour, yes. But it didnt just materialise out of nowhere either did it? Do you think some genetics could have been involved?

If people want quiet family pets they should choose breeds and lines specifically bred as COMPANIONS with low to no drive and no guarding instinct. That is what makes the difference not if the dog has a set of nuts or not.

I want testosterone because I want that extra push behind what some people call unwanted behaviours. Training is the majority that gets that snowball rolling, but the hormones help it along.

But the average dog owner can not be compared to the DOL population. All the entire dogs I have come across (except for dog shows) have been trouble-makers or trouble-magnets. And even if the problem is the lack of training in other dogs who react badly to entire dogs, it would still mean trouble for an average dog owner who does not belong to any training clubs but prefers the local dog park.

The only time I will suggest a client desex their dog is if they show behavioural traits that are a problem in society - aggression, extreme dominance, picking fights etc, the behaviours are limiting the dogs/owners ability to live a normal life and they are not a dog for breeding. Apart from that if the owner can control their dog and it's trained and socialised then frankly, it is their own business if they desex or not. I provide people with information and they can take it or leave it. But I dont believe in forcing someone to do something just because I believe thats the way life should be in general.

'Average owners' with untrained and unsocialised brat dogs will caused problems desexed or not. Any desexed dog that goes up to an entire dog and picks a fight has problems. Vice versa. I think the bigger problem lies in the fact we expect some dogs and some breeds to behave like we all gather around a campfire and sing KoombahYah together in peace and harmony - they're dogs. They wont always get along with others all the time. Mass desexing is not going to change that.

I do believe it. But given that this owner is having trouble handling his dog, he might not value the pep as much as you do, hence the suggestion to desex it.

Let the owner try training, and if it's not progressing that well due to confirmed testosterone fuelled problems then desex. If the dogs just a pain in the butt because it's never had training and old habits die hard then pushing to desex wont make a difference will it?

A question for you Nehkbet;

My entire male is pretty cruisy, he has a high prey drive and gets a little drooly around some female dogs, he is friendly with dogs he's introduced to... Now he's grown up with our dominant bitch (desexed) who for the most part is the yard protector etc..

Do you think that growing up with a dominant female has curbed his testosterone levels? or his propensity to display the behavior?

[Nekhbet]

Not necessarily testosterone but behaviour. My own male has been suppressed by my very dominant bitch when she was in heat. He waddled up to her when he was young and she slammed him for showing any interest ever, so even 5 years later he doesnt show as much interest as he could. Yes he whinges a bit but one look from her and he shuts up If she's coming on or off heat I can let her out with him while I watch and he doesnt try, a sideways evil eye puts him in his place and he gives up. Rottweiler on the other hand never had that, so despite being desexed he's hornier then a whole pack of entire males. Put her in her crate though and he doesnt fight to get to her or anything but only if they're together he harasses her (not that she helps)

[geo]

Thanks Nekhbet.

Edited April 23, 2011 by geo