Reasons To Desex A Male Dog

[Greytmate]

Until some compelling or relevant arguments are put forward, other than to scoff at people that do have trouble or have had trouble with the hormone fuelled behaviour of entire animals, I'm going to keep on the desexing bandwagon. No matter how old it gets. This dog is an ideal candidate for desexing. It won't do any harm, and will probably help a lot. The topic wasn't started to ask what people here do with their own dogs, it was about the advantages of desexing.

An argument in favour of desexing is not an open invitation for people like you to make negative comments about our handling skills. That is what is getting really old around here.

It may well be. Rightly or wrongly, its owner doesn't want to desex it. Suggesting that desexing it will make it any easier to handle was what triggered the dissenting views in the first place. Desexing alone won't make it any smaller, any less strong or any less likely to pull.

As I said in my first post, desexing is not a substitute for training and shouldn't be sold as such. Those arguing for desexing (and I am often one of them) need to come up with legitimate arguments or hold their tongues. They also need to be well informed about what desexing will and won't mean for an individual animal.

A friend of mine got the third degree from a vet nurse not long ago. "your dog is old enough now to be desexed" she was told. "Yes" she said "but I'm showing this dog". "oh that doesn't matter, you can still do that when he's desexed". Ah, no.. or not for a title anyway.

It's not "selfish" to keep a dog entire if you can responsibly manage its behaviour and prevent it from siring unplanned litters. Plenty of people manage to do just that and plenty of folk have legitimate reasons for delaying or not having a dog desexed at all. I can't see what the problem is with that view.

Desexing alone does remove drive that can cause a dog to act undesirably. Desexed dogs have one less drive working in conflict with desirable behaviour.

Testosterone is well known as being something that can affect mood and behaviour. Removing testicles removes the main source of testosterone.

Does anyone here really think that testosterone is not something that can affect mood or behaviour?

Do people think it's a good to have a particular drive in a dog that they have no intention of allowing to be satisfied?

That is a good argument for desexing, and I won't be holding my tongue any time soon.

No matter how many people use topics like this to grandstand about their own abilities as owners and to imply that those that desex are deficient in some way.

Desexing is one sure way to prevent accidental litters, and nobody has been able to come up with a compelling reason to keep a pet dog entire.

Desexing isn't being sold as a substitute for training, there are valid reasons to desex a dog regardless of training.

[poodlefan]

Desexing alone does remove drive that can cause a dog to act undesirably. Desexed dogs have one less drive working in conflict with desirable behaviour.

Testosterone is well known as being something that can affect mood and behaviour. Removing testicles removes the main source of testosterone.

Does anyone here really think that testosterone is not something that can affect mood or behaviour?

Do people think it's a good to have a particular drive in a dog that they have no intention of allowing to be satisfied?

Interesting question and one that confronts owners of a hell of a lot of breeds.

To look at it another way, does satisfying a particular drive create more of a problem for the ongoing management of a dog than never allowing that?

Most folk tell me that an experienced stud dog is more of handful in that regard than a dog that's never had a mating.

[Diva]

For this dog and this person I do think desexing is the right choice, as I do for most dogs and most owners. I just get peeved when people try to exaggerate the benefits - they should stand on their own merits. This gentleman should be told that desexing may help his dog be more manageable and will prevent it siring an accidental litter. That should be enough to persuade him, but if it isn't it's his legitimate choice, as long as the dog is contained and not out impregnating the neighbourhood.

I keep my dogs entire for health reasons (my personal judgement is that for mine the increased risk of certain serious diseases outweighs the diminished risk of a few others), to avoid the risk of spay incontinence (yes they are girls) and the hard to manage spay coat my breed seems to get when desexed, and because I can choose to do so knowing I will not have an accidental litter or hard to manage dogs.

But why I choose to keep mine entire has nothing to do with this thread - or at least it didn't until people started posting that it was selfish to make that decision, or that entire male dogs were as hard to manage compared to desexed ones as stallions are to geldings. Neither statement correlates at all with my experience. Testosterone does sometimes fuel behavioural problems, but someone forgot to tell my four previous entire boys that. Maybe that makes me a great handler of dogs, but I doubt it. I just think it means that entire male dogs aren't anywhere near the universal behavioural challenge that it is sometimes stated they are.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva

[jacqui835]

Desexing alone does remove drive that can cause a dog to act undesirably. Desexed dogs have one less drive working in conflict with desirable behaviour.

Testosterone is well known as being something that can affect mood and behaviour. Removing testicles removes the main source of testosterone.

Does anyone here really think that testosterone is not something that can affect mood or behaviour?

Do people think it's a good to have a particular drive in a dog that they have no intention of allowing to be satisfied?

That is a good argument for desexing, and I won't be holding my tongue any time soon.

No matter how many people use topics like this to grandstand about their own abilities as owners and to imply that those that desex are deficient in some way.

Desexing is one sure way to prevent accidental litters, and nobody has been able to come up with a compelling reason to keep a pet dog entire.

Desexing isn't being sold as a substitute for training, there are valid reasons to desex a dog regardless of training.

Well this is by far the best post I've read in regards to desexing. An obvious advocate, but supported by scientific method type response.

Testosterone does affect mood - but I like the effects. I have known many dogs before and after being desexed, and although the problems often remain (that the person thought they could fix by desexing), the personality does change as you've stated, and I just like them entire. I am not trying to imply that desexing makes anyone a lesser dog owner, merely that entire dog does not equal problem dog and that desexing is but one factor (and one of the lesser ones at that) that determines dog behaviour.

It's true, they have a desire to breed. But in my case at least, this drive is obviously outweighed by his desire to please me and to support his existing pack - I would say it's the same as how my old terrier desperately wanted to kill my pet rat, but didn't because he knew it belonged to me (he killed plenty of wild rats, and strangely plenty of our pet mice too, but maybe because he sensed how much I loved the rat, he spared it lol - I was 10 at the time btw).

You can find as many health disadvantages for desexing dogs as you can for keeping them entire - really depends on what you're looking for. I found plenty of articles describing the increased risk of bone cancers observed in desexed animals and I guess I believed the articles that said this risk outweighed that of testicular cancer in entire males. Additionally, I'm not keen to subject my dog to a full anaethestic unless he absolutely needs it - I don't think you or anyone else on these forums could meet him and say he absolutely needs (or even would benefit) from being desexed.

I think everyone here is pretty much in agreement that desexing is a better default option - there are too many dogs and too many people who can't contain/look after/stop themselves from randomly breeding their dogs. I think all the rest of us are asking for is for you not to campaign to force us to have to desex our dogs, and for everyone to understand and recognise that an entire dog can still be a responsible and safe member of society.

[Staranais]

I think everyone here is pretty much in agreement that desexing is a better default option - there are too many dogs and too many people who can't contain/look after/stop themselves from randomly breeding their dogs. I think all the rest of us are asking for is for you not to campaign to force us to have to desex our dogs, and for everyone to understand and recognise that an entire dog can still be a responsible and safe member of society.

Exactly.

[Greytmate]

I think all the rest of us are asking for is for you not to campaign to force us to have to desex our dogs, and for everyone to understand and recognise that an entire dog can still be a responsible and safe member of society.

I am not campaigning for that.

I don't have to offer that understanding in this topic. If people are against desexing, they should not expect me to express my understandinmg here in a thread called Reasons to Desex a Male dog.

This topic about this man and this dog.

There are good reasons why some dogs should be desexed. I have given them and this dog is one of them.

Maybe some of you should start your own topic where you can all be mightily impressed by both your dog's balls and your superior handling ability.

[jacqui835]

I think all the rest of us are asking for is for you not to campaign to force us to have to desex our dogs, and for everyone to understand and recognise that an entire dog can still be a responsible and safe member of society.

I am not campaigning for that.

I don't have to offer that understanding in this topic. If people are against desexing, they should not expect me to express my understandinmg here in a thread called Reasons to Desex a Male dog.

This topic about this man and this dog.

There are good reasons why some dogs should be desexed. I have given them and this dog is one of them.

Maybe some of you should start your own topic where you can all be mightily impressed by both your dog's balls and your superior handling ability.

sigh. Nothing else I can say to that when it's been taken out of context.

Anyway, hopefully the OP got what she needed from this thread - the info was all there imo.

Edited April 12, 2011 by jacqui835

[poodlefan]

There are good reasons why some dogs should be desexed. I have given them and this dog is one of them.

Maybe some of you should start your own topic where you can all be mightily impressed by both your dog's balls and your superior handling ability.

Yes, there ARE good reasons. The assertion that it will magically make a dog more "manageable" is not one of them.

It's got nothing to do with anyone's perception of their superior handling ability - the myth that an entire male will need more handling is in many cases just that - a myth.

I listen to a lot of reasons for desexing dogs and many of them are quite frankly, bullshit. It won't stop dogs learning to cock their legs, or stop them peeing in the house or, in many cases be a cure for aggression. It won't guarantee a dog won't become an escape artist, especially if you leave it in a back yard to go half spare from boredom. It's no guarantee of curing leg humping, pulling on lead, or other behaviours that require training, not a surgical cure.

It will prevent some cancers and it sure as hell will stop a dog siring unplanned litters. It also makes a dog's pee far less pungent.

So lets be realistic about what desexing does and what it will achieve. At the same time, lets acknowledge that there are plenty of entire male dogs out there that don't display undesireable behaviours. That's all I ask.

Am I in favour of desexing all male dogs who will not be used for breeding? Absolutely - but not as baby puppies, when they are fully grown and with acknowledgement that its not a cureall for undesirable behaviours.

The advocation of a practice without a reasonable understanding of its benefits and limitations falls into the realm of dogma to me (no pun intended). If anyone wishes to educate others about why dogs should be desexed, they need to do better than that.

The dog in question in this thread has all the hallmarks of a good potential fighting or bait dog. I'd be telling this guy that desexing this dog would make it far less attractive to the kind of scum who'd steal him for that. It would be the truth.

Edited April 12, 2011 by poodlefan

[Muttaburra]

Isn't a dog likely to grow bigger and stronger if left undesexed?

I also worry that if he is being walked and comes across a female on heat he may pull his owner over to get to the female.

An early desexed dog is likely to grow taller than an undesexed one.

But this dog is an adult so any of those issues aren't relevant here.

I'm not advocating the dog be left entire. No one appears to be pushing not to desex. But arguments for desexing need to be factual. The main reason you desex male dogs is to stop them producing unwanted pups. Arguments about behavioural change or making them "easier" to manage aren't necessarily going to produce the goods.

Contrary to belief, entire male dogs don't have to become slavering uncontrollable animals in the presence of a bitch in heat. A bit of training works wonders and most unmated males, while interested, don't really know what they're missing.

Thank you for your knowledge, but I wonder if you have seen how undesexed males affect desexed males?

My small Jack Russell Terrier de-sexed male knows the difference. Any dog we have trouble with is an un-desexed male, of the more assertive terrier kind, that likes to show dominance over my dog. We never have that problem with desexed males.

Now that dogs are mostly on leads, and only let loose in off-leash parks, I do believe this becomes a "social" issue. Of course if you have an entire male that is a "shrinking violet" and bothers nobody, go ahead, if it is fully contained and no risk to reproduce, but otherwise, if it is "forward" and bouncy, might not be a bad idea to neuter it.

[Greytmate]

I have a good understanding of the benefits that desexing can bring to dogs, and the undesirable behaviours that testosterone can encourage.

If you really think that you have a greater understanding than I do of the changes in behaviour of adult dogs after desexing you are going to have to do a lot better than 'dogma' and 'bullshit' to make that clear. Testosterone and its effects are not bullshit.

Nobody is saying that removing or reducing a dog's sex drive is a cure all. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to understand that if a drive is not there, a dog can not act upon it. That means that there will be a positive behavioural change in many dogs once they have been desexed. Whether you think that's bullshit or not.

Influence of orchiectomy on canine behaviour

R. J. Maarschalkerweerd, DVM1, N. Endenburg, PhD1, J. Kirpensteijn, DVM1 and B. W. Knol, DVM, PhD1

+ Author Affiliations

1Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, PO Box 80.145, 3508 TD Utrecht, The Netherlands

Abstract

One hundred and twenty-two dog owners were interviewed to obtain information about the effects of orchiectomy on the behaviour, unwanted side effects, and testosterone-dependent disease processes in their dogs. Behavioural problems were the main reason for orchiectomy, unwanted sexual behaviour being the most common, together with roaming, aggression, and abnormal urination behaviour. Objectionable sexual behaviour, inter-male aggression, roaming, and abnormalurination were reduced after orchiectomy in approximately 60 per cent of the dogs. The side effects of orchiectomy included increased bodyweight, increased appetite and decreased activity in less than 50 per cent of the dogs, and there was asignificant relationship between increased appetite and bodyweight. The clinical signs of testosterone-dependent disease in most of the dogs either decreased or disappeared after orchiectomy.

Effects of castration on problem behaviors in male dogs with reference to age and duration of behavior.

Neilson JC, Eckstein RA, Hart BL.

Behavior Service, Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis 95616, USA.

Abstract

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether 9 problem behaviors in adult male dogs were affected by castration and to examine the influence of age and duration of problem behavior on behavioral effects of castration.

DESIGN: Cohort study.

ANIMALS: 57 male dogs > 2 years old at the time of castration that had > or = 1 of the targeted problem behaviors.

PROCEDURE: Data were collected by telephone contact with owners to identify dogs that had > or = 1 problem behavior before castration and to estimate the improvement (ie, decrease) in the objectionable behaviors after castration. Problem behaviors of interest included urine marking in the house, mounting, roaming, fear of inanimate stimuli, aggression toward human family members, aggression toward unfamiliar people, aggression toward other dogs in the household, aggression toward unfamiliar dogs, and aggression toward human territorial intruders.

RESULTS: Effects of castration on fear of inanimate stimuli or aggression toward unfamiliar people were not significant. For urine marking, mounting, and roaming, castration resulted in an improvement of > or = 50% in > or = 60% of dogs and an improvement of > or = 90% in 25 to 40% of dogs. For remaining behaviors, castration resulted in an improvement of > or = 50% in < 35% of dogs. Significant correlations were not found between the percentage of improvement and age of the dog or duration of the problem behavior at the time of castration.

CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Castration was most effective in altering objectionable urine making, mounting, and roaming. With various types of aggressive behavior, including aggression toward human family members, castration may be effective in decreasing aggression in some dogs, but fewer than a third can be expected to have marked improvement. Age of the dog or duration of the problem behavior does not have value in predicting whether castration will have a beneficial effect.

PMID: 9227747 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Changes in the behavior of dogs after castration].

[Article in German]

Heidenberger E, Unshelm J.

Lehrstuhl für Tierhygiene und Verhaltenskunde, Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität, München.

Abstract

This study is based upon a written survey of keepers of neutered dogs about the behaviour of 209 male and 382 female dogs. The main findings are: Male dogs show behavioural changes after castration more often and more distinctly than female dogs after neutering. Behavioural problems in most cases are reduced or have even disappeared after neutering (male dogs 74%, female dogs 59%). At best, hypersexuality and connected problems are changed as expected. 49 of 80 aggressive male dogs and 25 of 47 female dogs are more gentle after neutering. 10 bitches appeared to be aggressive only after being neutered. Particularly feeding behaviour changes in 42% of the male dogs and 32% of the female dogs towards an increased intake of food, which also leads to an increase in body weight. This corresponds to decreasing activity, which is indicated by increasing time of rest (male dogs 36%, female dogs 18%) and decreasing motivation to move. Motivation for playing, watchfulness and perseverance change more seldomly and sometimes increase. The character of the neutered animals is predominantly described as "devoted, friendly and kind". Changes of behaviour following neutering depend on many influencing factors. Above all effective obedience training, but also the family situation of the owner, time factors, conditions of keeping and contact with other dogs have different impacts on the control of the individual behavioural problems.

Now if you think its just bullshit, you go find where all these studies can be proven wrong.

[Diva]

Now that dogs are mostly on leads, and only let loose in off-leash parks, I do believe this becomes a "social" issue. Of course if you have an entire male that is a "shrinking violet" and bothers nobody, go ahead, if it is fully contained and no risk to reproduce, but otherwise, if it is "forward" and bouncy, might not be a bad idea to neuter it.

They don't have to be shrinking violets or desexed to not bother anyone, just effectively socialised, trained and managed.

Greytmate, in at least 2 of those studies it looks like behavioural problems were identified before desexing, it is interesting to see how those behaviours were affected or not by desexing, but it doesn't really convince me that desexing is the default option of choice when no behavioural problems are present in an entire dog. As many have said in this thread, desexing may make a difficult dog more manageable in some respects. And not in others.

The females who became aggressive only after desexing are interesting too - I had heard of that anecdotally but not seen it reported like that before.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva

[JoeK]

We use this theory in the desexing of the German Shepherd Dog like this:

If you can't handle entire male, you shouldnt own the German Shepherd Dog is wrong breed for experience.

Many people in the years say to me Joe, I cant handling my dog well should I take off is tentical is common?. I show them the world Schutzhund champion dog has is tentical, and his behavior and obedience and controlingabilty is beautiful yes, and then I am resting on my case pfffff!

Joe

Edited April 12, 2011 by JoeK

[Greytmate]

Now that dogs are mostly on leads, and only let loose in off-leash parks, I do believe this becomes a "social" issue. Of course if you have an entire male that is a "shrinking violet" and bothers nobody, go ahead, if it is fully contained and no risk to reproduce, but otherwise, if it is "forward" and bouncy, might not be a bad idea to neuter it.

They don't have to be shrinking violets or desexed to not bother anyone, just effectively socialised, trained and managed.

Greytmate, in at least 2 of those studies it looks like behavioural problems were identified before desexing, it is interesting to see how those behaviours were affected or not by desexing, but it doesn't really convince me that desexing is the default option of choice when no behavioural problems are present in an entire dog. As many have said in this thread, desexing may make a difficult dog more manageable in some respects. And not in others.

The females who became aggressive only after desexing are interesting too - I had heard of that anecdotally but not seen it reported like that before.

Yes, just like the dog that this topic is about.

It used to be common sense to desex male pet dogs that are not required for breeding.

I never said it was not possible to keep a dog entire without problems.

The more people give me a hard time about this topic, the more vocal I tend to get.

Desex your pets.

[Jeff Jones]

We use this theory in the desexing of the German Shepherd Dog like this:

If you can't handle entire male, you shouldnt own the German Shepherd Dog is wrong breed for experience.

Many people in the years say to me Joe, I cant handling my dog well should I take off is tentical is common?. I show them the world Schutzhund champion dog has is tentical, and his behavior and obedience and controlingabilty is beautiful yes, and then I am resting on my case pfffff!

Joe

I am picturing a half dog half squid combination.

[Diva]

Yes, just like the dog that this topic is about.

I thought this dog was strong and untrained and pulling on the lead, not roaming or humping or aggressive or a problem marker, unless I missed something along the way.

It used to be common sense to desex male pet dogs that are not required for breeding.

Females yes, but no-one I knew desexed males unless they were having major problems with them, which was uncommon. And I think I am probably as old as you.

I never said it was not possible to keep a dog entire without problems.

The more people give me a hard time about this topic, the more vocal I tend to get.

I'm not giving you a hard time, just not agreeing with you, there is a difference.

Desex your pets.

Quite simply - No. That will only happen on a case by case basis if I have a medical reason to, not because someone else thinks they should be. I will not increase the risk of osteosarcoma or hypothyroid or hemangiosarcoma that lightly, or put them through a GA for no good reason.

[Muttaburra]

Now that dogs are mostly on leads, and only let loose in off-leash parks, I do believe this becomes a "social" issue. Of course if you have an entire male that is a "shrinking violet" and bothers nobody, go ahead, if it is fully contained and no risk to reproduce, but otherwise, if it is "forward" and bouncy, might not be a bad idea to neuter it.

They don't have to be shrinking violets or desexed to not bother anyone, just effectively socialised, trained and managed.

Greytmate, in at least 2 of those studies it looks like behavioural problems were identified before desexing, it is interesting to see how those behaviours were affected or not by desexing, but it doesn't really convince me that desexing is the default option of choice when no behavioural problems are present in an entire dog. As many have said in this thread, desexing may make a difficult dog more manageable in some respects. And not in others.

The females who became aggressive only after desexing are interesting too - I had heard of that anecdotally but not seen it reported like that before.

Yes, just like the dog that this topic is about.

It used to be common sense to desex male pet dogs that are not required for breeding.

I never said it was not possible to keep a dog entire without problems.

The more people give me a hard time about this topic, the more vocal I tend to get.

Desex your pets.

Here we do agree.

If there are less entire males to impregnate entire females, hopefully that results in less unwanted litters.

Owning a small terrier, a particularly social one, that gets on well with dogs male and female of all breeds and sizes, it really does stick out like the proverbial "dogs B*lls". When more "assertive" and larger breeds of terrier, entire, do serious and invasive dominance moves and crowding of my small dog. This is particularly difficult to manage when walking both the bitch and dog (both desexed), when the other person's dog, with a genius for an owner, is off-lead illegally.

Funny how it only happens with the entire ones? Perhaps there is correlation with people owning dominant or dog-agressive breeds and not neutering, some relationship with their brain and the dog's nether regions?

[Diva]

Funny how it only happens with the entire ones?

Not in my neighbourhood - the dogs that hassle mine are a nice mix of male, female, desexed and not. Well I can't really tell about the girls, but some of the males haven't had any balls.

The only common demoninator has been an incompetent, or more often completley absent as most have been loose on the street, owner.

It would be a relief to only have the entire males come at us really, there would be fewer of them. Is it only Terriers that come at your guys? We have a least 3 seperate pairs of loose JRTs around here that rush the bigger dogs, but also a selection of the larger non-terrier breeds that do the same.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva

[Muttaburra]

Funny how it only happens with the entire ones?

Not in my neighbourhood - the dogs that hassle mine are a nice mix of male, female, desexed and not. Well I can't really tell about the girls, but some of the males haven't had any balls.

The only common demoninator has been an incompetent, or more often completley absent as most have been loose on the street, owner.

Lucky you.

All the big hassles around here are a particular breed (or recognisable derivative) and stupid owners. Terriers do have their own language, body language etc, and my terrier gets on with other terriers, except for those not neutered and with dominance issues (ok, - all Carp are fish, but not all fish are carp). Not saying it applies to all, but applies to most.

[Diva]

Lucky you.

Yes, certainly the lucky one, LOL. Doesn't matter if I am walking an entire or desexed bitch either, the risk is the same.

[hortfurball]

I think all the rest of us are asking for is for you not to campaign to force us to have to desex our dogs, and for everyone to understand and recognise that an entire dog can still be a responsible and safe member of society.

I am not campaigning for that.

I don't have to offer that understanding in this topic. If people are against desexing, they should not expect me to express my understandinmg here in a thread called Reasons to Desex a Male dog.

This topic about this man and this dog.

There are good reasons why some dogs should be desexed. I have given them and this dog is one of them.

Maybe some of you should start your own topic where you can all be mightily impressed by both your dog's balls and your superior handling ability.

Can I just point out that the post you partly quoted and responded to in a negative manner actually began with this compliment on your previous post:

Well this is by far the best post I've read in regards to desexing. An obvious advocate, but supported by scientific method type response.

Yes, just like the dog that this topic is about.

The dog that this thread is about is a big strong dog who pulls on the lead and is managed by an elderly gentleman who doesn't have the physical strength to control the dog.

Desexing will not reduce the physical strength of the dog, nor stop it pulling on the lead.

It will reduce the registration fees, which may help him as a pensioner, but possibly won't outweigh the initial cost of having the dog desexed.

It may reduce some behaviours such as roaming/dog aggression but in this dog's case, we don't know if it has any of these issues. As we have not been told it does, we can most likely assume that it does not. What does 50% of a problem that wasn't there in the first place equate to anyway?

We use this theory in the desexing of the German Shepherd Dog like this:

If you can't handle entire male, you shouldnt own the German Shepherd Dog is wrong breed for experience.

Many people in the years say to me Joe, I cant handling my dog well should I take off is tentical is common?. I show them the world Schutzhund champion dog has is tentical, and his behavior and obedience and controlingabilty is beautiful yes, and then I am resting on my case pfffff!

Joe

I am picturing a half dog half squid combination.

Same :D