Another Shaping Question And Observation

[Cosmolo]

I was shaping with one of my dogs today and noticed something interesting. We have been doing walking backwards and today was his 4th session with that exercise. He is pretty much at the same point he was in the first session and i am wondering if he is trying to tell me something.

The dog in question has HD and ED and although he lures backwards just fine, i am wondering if something in his brain/ thought process prevents him from actually offering me a back up through shaping because of his joints. I don't believe its actually painful for him to back up as there is no discomfort evident when luring him back though. He does not enjoy shaping this exercise anywhere near as much as any other exercises although he hasn't done heaps of shaping. I don't want to turn him off shaping by persisting with this exercise.

Would you-

- persist with shaping the back up

- abandon the back up completely

- abandon the back up for now, shape some other movements and then try the back up again

My first thought is number two- especially given its not like i need him to do it but i did wonder about option 3 as well.

[Staranais]

Will he do other hind end awareness things? Can he target his hind feet to a step or perch, for example? He may merely be a bit confused about where his hind feet are & what he can do with them.

I'd be inclined to try option 3, if it were my dog.

[corvus]

I'd go number 3. Sometimes I find with Kivi especially seeing as he's a bit bigger and not as naturally agile as Erik that he needs a bit of foundation work before I can make headway on something. I try to break down the behaviour into a stupidly basic list of what he needs to be able to do in order to master the behaviour and watch him to see if he can actually do them all in other circumstances. If he only does one occasionally I work on it so he becomes more comfortable with it and we build up some muscle conditioning/memory for it. So you know your dog can do the behaviour, but does he only do it in the luring context? Does he ever do all or parts in other circumstances?

[Cosmolo]

No, i have never seen him step backwards that i can think of in other situations, although i will pay more attention to this now.

I think i will go option 3 and do some other hind end work with him first and see what he is like with that. We haven't done alot- except lots of doodling for heel which he is very good at.

[Vickie]

Have you shaped all your others to walk backwards?

If I am having trouble with something with one dog, I will sometimes do the exercise with every other dog I have, even the oldies & then go back & try again with the dog I was having trouble with.

I doubt his HD or ED would be interfering with such a basic movement.

[Cosmolo]

Yep, shaped it with the other two without issue. Its not that i think the movement is causing pain, but more that he thinks it might and doesn't think to offer it. I think Staranais might be on the money- will do some other HE work and then come back. I just wanted some other perspectives- i am a bit precious about this boy and was a bit concerned today when i saw how he seemed to struggle with it. Your probably right though and it has nothing to do with his joints- paranoid owner!

[Aidan3]

He does not enjoy shaping this exercise anywhere near as much as any other exercises although he hasn't done heaps of shaping. I don't want to turn him off shaping by persisting with this exercise.

They way I see it, shaping really only becomes stressful if the rate of reinforcement drops off (dog keeps trying something/s that isn't working). If that is the case, then we need to back it up a bit or split it down more. In this case, that might mean option 3 simply because there isn't a better way to back up or split it down than to do some rear end awareness work.

[m-j]

although he lures backwards just fine, i am wondering if something in his brain/ thought process prevents him from actually offering me a back up through shaping

Is he offering any sort of other behaviour/s? Do you think he could possibly be confused as to what you want as he is used to you luring him to walk backwards?

[Cosmolo]

He offers the behaviour last shaped so yes i think there is some confusion coming into play. I am going to stick to shaping some other things then come back to the backing up. ( i don't lure him backwards often, i just know that i can as i have used him to demo in a few workshops) Will report back when i have had a chance to do some training, i came off my horse a week ago ( pretty bruised and battered!) and haven't done much training since!

[m-j]

He offers the behaviour last shaped so yes i think there is some confusion coming into play. I am going to stick to shaping some other things then come back to the backing up. ( i don't lure him backwards often, i just know that i can as i have used him to demo in a few workshops) Will report back when i have had a chance to do some training, i came off my horse a week ago ( pretty bruised and battered!) and haven't done much training since!

Ouch!