Sits And Foldback Downs

[corvus]

I was finding Kivi was moving around a bit when cued down and to stand again and often swung out a bit. I was addressing this by practising next to a barrier so he couldn't swing out, which was helping, but I still wasn't loving the lack of fluidity. So I decided to teach him a foldback down thinking it would solve the problem, which it is well on the way to doing. Anyway, how does he do a foldback down from a sit? Has anyone trained that?

[Tassie]

:p If the foldback down is the one I'm thinking of, it's done from a stand not a sit. Biomechanically, I can't see how a dog could actually do a foldback down from a sit without doing a kickback with the hind legs into a stand at some point through the transition - would be a bit mucky, I'd think.

The 2 downs I teach are from a sit - dog's front comes forward; and from a stand, front paws remain in place, elbows bend to have forearms on ground, rear subsides - should get a lovely square drop - in practice, it happens in one movement. Not sure if that's the one you mean. I teach it by luring (yes, I'm impatient) - food goes between dog's front paws towards back, elbows bend - I'll often mark and reward that stage a couple of times if necessary, then I'll withhold the reward and wait the dog out. It helps to have a person or a corner cupboard to prevent the dog backing up - although if the dog does that, I just bring them forward a little bit, and try again.

I actually only taught Rory the foldback - until I had to teach down from sit cause it's one of the Rally O stations

[SmoothieGirl]

I'm with you Tassie, I'm scratching my head on a foldback down from a sit - simply not possibly, that is if we have understood you corvus.

As well as/instead of a lure, a hand on the dogs shoulders (more forward than back) suggesting pressure down and back should help too. Oh, from a stand of course.

Edited April 5, 2011 by SmoothieGirl

[corvus]

If the foldback down is the one I'm thinking of, it's done from a stand not a sit. Biomechanically, I can't see how a dog could actually do a foldback down from a sit without doing a kickback with the hind legs into a stand at some point through the transition - would be a bit mucky, I'd think.

That's what I was thinking. How does this work? Do you teach two different downs? Kivi has seemed a bit confused as well. I'll just not ask for a down from a sit until I've got the foldback down on cue.

[wuffles]

You could try getting him to do it on some kind of box/platform. If it's just big enough for him to lie down on, he should scoot his back legs back slightly to allow a drop from a sit.

[The Spotted Devil]

I don't teach it at all - I always release before dropping (eg in stays).

[perfect partners]

If the foldback down is the one I'm thinking of, it's done from a stand not a sit. Biomechanically, I can't see how a dog could actually do a foldback down from a sit without doing a kickback with the hind legs into a stand at some point through the transition - would be a bit mucky, I'd think.

That's what I was thinking. How does this work? Do you teach two different downs? Kivi has seemed a bit confused as well. I'll just not ask for a down from a sit until I've got the foldback down on cue.

If you initially teach the dog sit, then stand, then drop, the dog will tend to do fold down drops. Initially you always ask for stand then drop, from a sit, then when the dog is good at this, ask for drop from sit. If the dog flicks his hind end up and back and goes into a fold down drop, reward it, if it moves it's feet forward into drop, just try again. You can help the dog understand by standing right in front of it or having a pole or something on the ground in front of its front feet so it's difficult for it to move it's feet forward.

[fuzzy82]

I have shaped the kickback stand, and also the fold down drop from the stand. Sometimes she mucks it up and sits instead, and if she then decides to do the fold down drop, she does get up in a stand first before folding back. She would have to, because she can't lie down without moving her front paws from a sit. Unless you teach it on a smooth surface, like tiles, then she could slide back into the drop, but you can't really rely on trials being done on tiles....

Edited April 6, 2011 by fuzzy82

[Aidan3]

I taught Sabella kick-back stands and fold-back downs, she made the whole thing look seamless. But she can levitate, too

[Staff'n'Toller]

I taught Sabella kick-back stands and fold-back downs, she made the whole thing look seamless. But she can levitate, too

Video evidence required.

[corvus]

I was thinking maybe it could be done with targets. If I could teach a dog to keep their front feet on a target and then cue a down from a sit, maybe use another target to encourage dog to flip haunches back... Probably not with Kivi, though. I've been teaching Kivi his foldback down from a stand with a target stick directing his nose down between his front legs. So I've only been rewarding when he folds down. This has resulted in OH asking for a down from a sit and Kivi going "Mmmm.... I don't know how." We are keeping "down" to mean the stretch your front feet forward thing, but Kivi hasn't learnt to differentiate yet.