Vaccinations And Titre Testing

[Sooky]

I repeat - when were you last given a booster vaccination for the diseases you were vaccinated against as a baby?

I think this is a great point to make and I'm so glad I have started to read about over vaccinating as I would have just done what the vet said and vaccinated yearly but there is no way I will do that now, it really doesnt matter how much the titre test costs I would rather pay for that than have my dog ill cause of something I'd allowed to be put in his body.

Erny - Great information

[Erny]

I was talking to a vet the other day and asked his opinion on vacs and titres.

He said that it is true some vacs against some dog diseases do last more than one year. But he seemed to think some (2 at least he named) diseases need to be vaccinated against yearly.

I had my boy titred more than 1 year past his last puppy vacc and he had sufficient antibody levels for at least two of the core diseases. The Vet I had this done through agreed there was no need to re-vaccinate. Immune is Immune. It is not about being *more* immune. You either are immune. Or you're not.

And his point was that if you need to vaccinate these 2 you may as well do them all.

I agree with Sandra777. "You may as well do them all" ..... even if it is more chemical than your dog needs?

He vaccinates his dogs and is happy to do.

As is his perogative.

The titre test costs more than the vaccinations ...

Yes, although if you're then running on the basis of 3 years rather than every year, I think it would work out cheaper. But that aside, for me and my dog it isn't about the money.

... and he doesn't believe vaccinations are harmful.

Again, his prerogative. But then why would the AVA have the vaccination policy that suggests differently?

You (and others) might find Dr Jean Dodds articles helpful and interesting to read. The link to at least one of them is :

Dr Jean Dodds (USA) Vaccination Protocol

Scroll down about half way - that's where it begins to talk of Titre Testing. There are some links to other articles contained in that article as well.

It is a bit confusing.

Yes it is. And look at all the decades we've believed in the necessity for annual vaccinations. Heck - at least I can remember the days when we never used to vaccinate our dogs past puppy-dom. There will be many of you who were born to the practice of yearly vaccinations and know no different. It goes outside our comfort zone to think that we could have been wrong and that we might actually be harming our pets, unintentionally, of course. It's pretty scary when you first take the leap of change. But the more I read, the more I become more comfortable with the notion of not vaccinating beyond puppy-dom.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Erny

[silentchild]

Thanks Erny, all your replies have been extremely helpful and informative. I think I will ask my vet about titre testing, although I am dreading the price they will quote me! I hope it's not too expensive, I'd be tempted to not test and not vacc altogether!

C3 vacc (parvo, distemper, hepatitus) is thought to last 3 or more years. The other two components that make up the C5 vacc are for two strains of canine cough. Those vaccs apparently last only the one year. So you could split it up and have a C3 every 3 years and the 2 canine cough vaccs anually but apparently this costs more and its easier for the public to get one vacc yearly.

As far as I know, the kennel cough vaccine isn't very effective and dogs who have been vaccinated against it still get it anyway, so if you do the vaccination 3 yearly, there's not much point in getting the annual kennel cough vaccinations?

[Mason_Gibbs]

Thanks Erny, all your replies have been extremely helpful and informative. I think I will ask my vet about titre testing, although I am dreading the price they will quote me! I hope it's not too expensive, I'd be tempted to not test and not vacc altogether!

C3 vacc (parvo, distemper, hepatitus) is thought to last 3 or more years. The other two components that make up the C5 vacc are for two strains of canine cough. Those vaccs apparently last only the one year. So you could split it up and have a C3 every 3 years and the 2 canine cough vaccs anually but apparently this costs more and its easier for the public to get one vacc yearly.

As far as I know, the kennel cough vaccine isn't very effective and dogs who have been vaccinated against it still get it anyway, so if you do the vaccination 3 yearly, there's not much point in getting the annual kennel cough vaccinations?

The kennel cough vaccine to me is useless, and I wont do it again. My dog had the nasal one as a pup and had a reaction to it ...

Then a friends dog who had had the vaccine about 4 weeks before got kennel cough so it seems pretty useless as the virus going around is not the same strain they usually vaccinate against anyway... I titre test, like Erny said once you have immunity you have it. To me vaccinating yearly is harmful for the dog and unnecessary.

[Lollipup]

I don't currently do the canine cough vacc but still not sure whether I should be or not. One vet told me if I don't want to board the dogs in kennels than I can go without. Even though they can get it other places, the kennels ( training clubs often) require it. So I think I will stick to C3 unless I need C5 for one of those reasons.

I have been told the canine cough vacc doesn't mean they can't get it but if they do they may fight it off quicker and not get a really bad case of it.

Its all very confusing. Every vet having a different opinion doesn't help.

[Red Fox]

But then why would the AVA have the vaccination policy that suggests differently?

The AVA policy also states:

Individual animals will require assessment by a veterinarian to select the most appropriate

vaccine and vaccination protocol. The veterinarian–client–patient relationship is important to

fully understand the individual’s needs.

http://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/...INAL-June09.pdf

Unfortunately I'm yet to find a vet (in my area) who hasn't used this to their advantage - "Yes we are aware of the new protocols but due to the high incidence of Parvo in our area we have chosen to continue with yearly vaccinations".

Yet they don't inform their clients that the new protocols even exist. How is an owner supposed to make an informed decision?

Add to that the fact that the vast majority of the dog owning public are unaware that titer testing is even available and the high cost in certain areas (my vet charges $250+)...

I also wish that clubs would catch on to this. The AVA supports triennial vaccination, yet I will need to titer or revaccinate yearly if I wish to train or compete with my dog.

[spanky]

But then why would the AVA have the vaccination policy that suggests differently?

The AVA policy also states:

Individual animals will require assessment by a veterinarian to select the most appropriate

vaccine and vaccination protocol. The veterinarian–client–patient relationship is important to

fully understand the individual’s needs.

http://www.ava.com.au/sites/default/files/...INAL-June09.pdf

Unfortunately I'm yet to find a vet (in my area) who hasn't used this to their advantage - "Yes we are aware of the new protocols but due to the high incidence of Parvo in our area we have chosen to continue with yearly vaccinations".

Yet they don't inform their clients that the new protocols even exist. How is an owner supposed to make an informed decision?

Add to that the fact that the vast majority of the dog owning public are unaware that titer testing is even available and the high cost in certain areas (my vet charges $250+)...

I also wish that clubs would catch on to this. The AVA supports triennial vaccination, yet I will need to titer or revaccinate yearly if I wish to train or compete with my dog.

$250!!!! Far out, I don't pay that much for a full blood panel at my vet.

We don't do the kennel cough spray, but then again we don't kennel the dogs or attend a training club.

[Erny]

I also wish that clubs would catch on to this. The AVA supports triennial vaccination, yet I will need to titer or revaccinate yearly if I wish to train or compete with my dog.

Pro-K9 ask for minimum C3 and will accept Titre tests in lieu of current vaccination certificate.

[Red Fox]

I also wish that clubs would catch on to this. The AVA supports triennial vaccination, yet I will need to titer or revaccinate yearly if I wish to train or compete with my dog.

Pro-K9 ask for minimum C3 and will accept Titre tests in lieu of current vaccination certificate.

Erny is that a yearly C3/titer or triennial in line with the AVA protocol?

[Erny]

I also wish that clubs would catch on to this. The AVA supports triennial vaccination, yet I will need to titer or revaccinate yearly if I wish to train or compete with my dog.

Pro-K9 ask for minimum C3 and will accept Titre tests in lieu of current vaccination certificate.

Erny is that a yearly C3/titer or triennial in line with the AVA protocol?

That's a good question, SK. I seek annual - at this stage only because I'm not entirely sure where I stand (legally) to seek anything less. When I've had clients joining/re-joining, they've already had vaccinations done so I've not yet had an incident where someone has opted for triennial. If a certificate is signed off by a Vet for the triennial, I would not have a problem with that.

ETA: If someone provided me with a positive Titre Test result in lieu of a vaccination certificate, I think I'd be inclined to accept that as sufficient for a triennial period - mainly because it would show that sero-conversion had occurred. Unless I have everything misunderstood and upside down, I'd be more comfortable with that than a certificate simply saying vaccination has been administered. But I do reserve the right to change my mind on this once I've had a chance to consider further.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Erny

[Staranais]

This is where I begin to run out of knowledge and understanding, but I think this is the point where I either say to myself "I will re-vaccinate now" (even though I know it might rock my dog's immune system around a bit) or that I trust my reading and research and accept that once there have been antibodies, cell memory would be sufficient. This is also the point where I say someone more knowledgeable about this end of things than I am needs to explain it.

It's a pity dogs don't turn green when they were running out of immunity for these things.

It's not just you - IMO anyone who claims to have all the answers is lying, no matter how qualified they are. The immune system is a complicated thing, and we just don't have all the answers yet.

As for the poster who said that once you get a disease you're immune for life, I can name several diseases off the top of my head where that's definitely not true. Duration of immunity from an infection or a vaccination isn't automatically life long, which is why they study these things.

However, any vet that denies that vaccination can have negative effects is also living with their head in the sand, IMO.

ETA, I think you're right about accepting a titre test as lasting (at least) 3 years, not requiring an annual one, if you're willing to accept a 3 yearly C3 vaccination.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Staranais

[jr_inoz]

Finding it hard to get titre testing done here too...

but won't vaccinate this year - my girl reabsorbed a litter earlier this year, and from what I have been reading - the annual heart vaccination she had had could have been a factor.

Also know this means that we won't be able to do obedience this year as none of the clubs in my area will let her participate without proof of vaccination.

[Sandra777]

As for the poster who said that once you get a disease you're immune for life, I can name several diseases off the top of my head where that's definitely not true. Duration of immunity from an infection or a vaccination isn't automatically life long, which is why they study these things.

I said "generally speaking" so quoting what was actually said would've been nice :p

Yep there are ''several'' diseases which can recur, and some which can recur in a slightly different form, shingles in humans for one but ''several'' isn't ''all'' and ''generally speaking'' isn't ''all'' either

No one is saying any vaccination is automatically life long which is why the titre testing comes into it

ETA: And in how many cases of people/animals getting the same disease twice or more, is the immune response incomplete in the first place so the immune system hasn't worked properly?

People ''generally speaking'' don't get chicken pox every year any more than dogs ''generally speaking'' don't have an annual bout of distemper.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Sandra777

[Staranais]

As for the poster who said that once you get a disease you're immune for life, I can name several diseases off the top of my head where that's definitely not true. Duration of immunity from an infection or a vaccination isn't automatically life long, which is why they study these things.

I said "generally speaking" so quoting what was actually said would've been nice :p

You also said that vaccines "don't wear off" as they work by stimulating the immune system as if it had encountered the actual disease. But I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and you meant that many vaccines don't wear off, but some do, just like when the body encounters the original disease.

[Sandra777]

As for the poster who said that once you get a disease you're immune for life, I can name several diseases off the top of my head where that's definitely not true. Duration of immunity from an infection or a vaccination isn't automatically life long, which is why they study these things.

I said "generally speaking" so quoting what was actually said would've been nice :D

You also said that vaccines "don't wear off" as they work by stimulating the immune system as if it had encountered the actual disease. But I'm sorry if I misunderstood you and you meant that many vaccines don't wear off, but some do, just like when the body encounters the original disease.

Vaccinations don't ''wear off'' - the body's response to it wanes or not - Frontline wears off. Pen notes written on the palm of my hand wear off.

[Staranais]

A vaccine may not "wear off" (of course, a term which has no real medical meaning) but I personally think it's quite reasonable to use the term "wear off" in regards the duration of the protective effect of a vaccination.

ETA, however, I really don't have the inclination or the time to argue about semantics or what you really meant when you originally used the term. I merely posted originally to point out that there are many, many infectious diseases that do not confer complete life-long immunity, after natural or artificial exposure. Luckily for our dogs, the core C3 diseases do appear to fall in the group of diseases where vaccination does confer a very long, possibly life long, duration of immunity.

Edited April 7, 2011 by Staranais

[Katdogs]

I've asked our vet to get a quote on titre testing for Stevie, as she has had dramatic reactions twice in her five years of vaccinations. Vet is keen to pursue this option, however the dogs need to go into boarding for a few weeks in June and the boarding kennel has just said that it is 'illegal' for them to keep a dog without an annual vaccination certificate. Can it be illegal? I thought perhaps it might affect the insurance, but not that the kennel could be closed down if I don't provide a certificate.

If it turns out too hard I'll have the C5 done at a time when someone can be home with her all day, same as last year. We don't know for sure it was the vacc she was reacting to, in both cases she was in areas of the yard where she may have had spider bite or other strange things happen. We do know for sure that she's extremely allergic to dust mites and some plants, and she's having desensitisation treatment for that. Poor chook has been a snuffly girl for years, dosed up on anti-histamines and cortisone, and now has nice clean eyes, sinuses and ears!