Vaccinations And Titre Testing

[silentchild]

Okay, so I know there have been dozens of threads on this subject already in the past, and I have gone back to read through them all - but I am just still a little confused as to what I should do in regards to annual vaccinations.

My girl Emma has had yearly vaccinations all her life, for the past two years she has had C3 and the years before that she had C5. I learnt about the dangers of over-vaccinating a while ago and also about titre testing, and it's something I'd like to do but I am just a little confused..

Emma is due for her next yearly vaccination in a few weeks, and since her last vaccine was a year ago, I'm wondering, if I get the vet to titre test her this year instead of giving her a vaccine, would there even be any antibodies in her system? If she hasn't been in contact with a disease and her last vaccine was a year ago, would it even be worth titre testing? Should I titre test or just go ahead and vaccinate her or just do nothing and wait for another two years?

We are also going away on holiday soon and taking her with us, so I was wondering does that mean we should vaccinate her just to be safe?

What happens if I titre test her and the results show that she's covered - but then the antibodies drop off during some time after the titre test and between the next due vaccine? I want to keep her protected but also don't want to pump her system full of chemicals. She is also not a young girl anymore, she is getting on 7 this year and slowly turning rather grey.

Sorry I'm so clueless - I just need some advice! What would you do?

[spanky]

Okay, so I know there have been dozens of threads on this subject already in the past, and I have gone back to read through them all - but I am just still a little confused as to what I should do in regards to annual vaccinations.

My girl Emma has had yearly vaccinations all her life, for the past two years she has had C3 and the years before that she had C5. I learnt about the dangers of over-vaccinating a while ago and also about titre testing, and it's something I'd like to do but I am just a little confused..

Emma is due for her next yearly vaccination in a few weeks, and since her last vaccine was a year ago, I'm wondering, if I get the vet to titre test her this year instead of giving her a vaccine, would there even be any antibodies in her system? If she hasn't been in contact with a disease and her last vaccine was a year ago, would it even be worth titre testing? Should I titre test or just go ahead and vaccinate her or just do nothing and wait for another two years?

We are also going away on holiday soon and taking her with us, so I was wondering does that mean we should vaccinate her just to be safe?

What happens if I titre test her and the results show that she's covered - but then the antibodies drop off during some time after the titre test and between the next due vaccine? I want to keep her protected but also don't want to pump her system full of chemicals. She is also not a young girl anymore, she is getting on 7 this year and slowly turning rather grey.

Sorry I'm so clueless - I just need some advice! What would you do?

Yes there will be antibodies in her system. The titre test will check the levels of antibodies. So yes it is worth titre testing.

If she's covered there probably won't be much change in the year. There is a minimum level of antibodies that need to be present for the dog to be considered covered. If she is under you will need to revaccinate, if she is borderline it will be your decision.

I have titre tested the last two years and neither dog has required the revac... one dog has only had her puppy shots and 12mnth booster.

As for taking her away with you, just do the nasal kennel cough vaccination. Her antibodies will mean she is just as protected as a dog with an injected vaccination.

[Leelaa17]

I'm sorry to sound dumb but what is titre testing? And what is wrong with vaccinating your dogs every year? I thought you had to do that to protect them from parvo?.....

sorry!! Justy dont really understand whats happening right now. lol

[Erny]

I'm sorry to sound dumb but what is titre testing? And what is wrong with vaccinating your dogs every year? I thought you had to do that to protect them from parvo?.....

sorry!! Justy dont really understand whats happening right now. lol

Wow ..... who wants to answer this one .

Sorry Leelaa ..... not having a go at you but once you realise the answer to your questions, you'll see how BIG the subject actually is.

In short though, "titre testing" is where the Vet draws blood and tests it to measure the antibodies that are present for at least 2 of the core diseases for which your dog has previously been vaccinated. The presence and number of antibodies indicates the dog has immunity - or more particularly (because people thing of "immunity" as meaning "can't catch it") the dog has the defence mechanism ready in its body to help fight off those diseases should it come into contact with them.

Titre testing is a good way to confirm sero-conversion (Staranais taught me that term ) has occurred from the original vaccinations. In other words, that the dog's body has developed the antibodies necessary to fight off such diseases.

When your dog has the immunity necessary, there's no point in adding more and more (of the same) chemicals to its body. Every time you do, you stress the animal's immune system. Too much/unnecessary stress can actually cause it to not operate to its optimum and potentially weaken it - which is NOT what we want. There is much talk, murmuring and conjecture (I don't think it has been proven but it is hypothesised) that this could be a contributor to the dog's body turning on itself; developing other problems such as cancer; more prevalence of other illnesses.

So the argument is, why load your dog up with chemicals year in year out, unnecessarily and potentially tax its system bringing about other ills/problems along the way?

Even the AVA (Australian Veterinary Association) agree that vaccinating more than once every 3 years is vaccinating more than is necessary. The hitch seems to be that the drug manufacturers prescribe their vaccinations for 12 monthly use. It would apparently cost a lot of money (and would necessitate much re-experimentation on animals) for the manufacturers to be able to confidently put in writing that "once every 3 years is ok". If the Vets prescribe the medication for use outside of the label requirements, Vets could be held accountable if something were to go wrong for the person who didn't vaccinate yearly in accordance with their Vet's advice.

Some suggest that it is also the recognition by both the drug company and some vets that they will see a reduction of income if people aren't coming to them for their dogs' yearly vaccinations. Whether it's the drug company hiding behind the vets or vice versa ..... I don't know :p .

So for anyone who has read and believes that we are over doing it with drugs on our dogs, it has to be your own educated and common sense decision about how you think the best care for your dog should be administrated.

I am not for vaccinating yearly. With what I have read and heard, I think we could afford to be much more discerning than we have been for the past several decades.

When you stop to think about it, this is commonly what we apply on our dogs in the way of chemicals inside one year :

1 x C3 or C5 vaccination

4 x wormer dose (whether the dog has worms or not)

12 x spot ons to ward off/kill fleas (whether the dog has flea issues or not)

12 x chews for heart worm protection (if it isn't included as an additional chemical in the aforementioned spot-on).. Heart worm protection in some areas is necessary and warranted. But not necessarily in all areas of Australia (the colder climates are generally not congenial to the development of the heart worm to infectious stage).

12 x shampoo baths

12 x tick preventative (granted necessary for some environments).

Multiply each of those out by the amount of years we expect our dogs to live and that will give you an idea of how much chemical we fill our dogs bodies up with. And then put all of that out on a table and you'd really get a grasp of just what we are doing.

Then of course there's the frequent administration of antibiotics and/or cortisone when our dogs sport an injury; skin condition (which might be because of any of the above). These are great drugs, but IMO should be used judiciously rather than "just in case" as they frequently are these days.

I've gone further than just answering your immediate question and I hope I've made sense to you in my answer. I'm not a Vet and I am happy to stand corrected by any of our more learned DOLvets who (and I take my hat off to them) are always a fantastic wealth of information and education to us all here. This is just my personal opinion based on my own reading and experiences, expressed in my own layperson's manner of understanding.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Erny

[RallyValley]

The titre test has a buffer level, my boys results show he has enough antibody in his system to last another 12 months, possibly another 24, if they are low and close to a score deemed not protected the results will tell you to re-vaccinate. :p I will get him done again in 12 months to see, from memory it cost about $70.00.

[Rysup]

If it were me, I would just not re-vaccinate.

I have a 15 year old dog that has not seen a vaccination for 13 years and he hasnt dropped dead of some contagious disease yet. In fact the 14 year old also has not seen a vaccine for 12 years. I could go on, but needless to say my dogs get their puppy vaccs and one booster and then that is it. Done and dusted. I have never had a disease in my dogs that is vaccinated against.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I gave puppy shots and 12 months later did titre test as its what the derm recommended for my allergy dog- his levels were good and so we will test again in 12 months to be on safe side.

[Erny]

Yes - my understanding is that after a while, the antibodies in the blood recede. It is not that they disappear but more that the body, if not exposed to the diseases, recognises it doesn't need to spend time creating and maintaining antibodies for those diseases. And so the 'memory' of what those diseases 'look' like, retreats to a cellular level.

But once the dog is exposed to any one or more of the diseases again, the body very quickly 'remembers' and it gets fast to work to re-creat the anti-bodies necessary to ward off the disease.

A titre test at that later point might potentially show "negative" but it doesn't prove your dog didn't have the wherewithal to fight off the disease.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Erny

[Leelaa17]

I'm sorry to sound dumb but what is titre testing? And what is wrong with vaccinating your dogs every year? I thought you had to do that to protect them from parvo?.....

sorry!! Justy dont really understand whats happening right now. lol

Wow ..... who wants to answer this one .

Sorry Leelaa ..... not having a go at you but once you realise the answer to your questions, you'll see how BIG the subject actually is.

In short though, "titre testing" is where the Vet draws blood and tests it to measure the antibodies that are present for at least 2 of the core diseases for which your dog has previously been vaccinated. The presence and number of antibodies indicates the dog has immunity - or more particularly (because people thing of "immunity" as meaning "can't catch it") the dog has the defence mechanism ready in its body to help fight off those diseases should it come into contact with them.

Titre testing is a good way to confirm sero-conversion (Staranais taught me that term ) has occurred from the original vaccinations. In other words, that the dog's body has developed the antibodies necessary to fight off such diseases.

When your dog has the immunity necessary, there's no point in adding more and more (of the same) chemicals to its body. Everytime you do, you stress the animal's immune system. Too much/unnecessary stress can actually cause it to not operate to its optimum and potentially weaken it - which is NOT what we want. There is much talk, murmuring and conjecture (I don't think it has been proven but it is hypothesised) that this could be a contributor to the dog's body turning on itself; developing other problems such as cancer; more prevalence of other illnesses.

So the argument is, why load your dog up with chemicals year in year out, unnecessarily and potentially tax its system bringing about other ills/problems along the way?

Even the AVA (Australian Veterinary Association) agree that vaccinating more than once every 3 years is vaccinating more than is necessary. The hitch seems to be that the drug manufacturers prescribe their vaccinations for 12 monthly use. It would apparently cost a lot of money (and would necessitate much re-experimentation on animals) for the manufacturers to be able to confidently put in writing that "once every 3 years is ok". If the Vets prescribe the medication for use outside of the label requirements, Vets could be held accountable if something were to go wrong for the person who didn't vaccinate yearly in accordance with their Vet's advice.

Some suggest that it is also the recognition by both the drug company and some vets that they will see a reduction of income if people aren't coming to them for their dogs' yearly vaccinations. Whether it's the drug company hiding behind the vets or vice versa ..... I don't know :p .

So for anyone who has read and believes that we are over doing it with drugs on our dogs, it has to be your own educated and common sense decision about how you think the best care for your dog should be administrated.

I am not for vaccinating yearly. With what I have read and heard, I think we could afford to be much more discerning than we have been for the past several decades.

When you stop to think about it, this is commonly what we apply on our dogs in the way of chemicals inside one year :

1 x C3 or C5 vaccination

4 x wormer dose (whether the dog has worms or not)

12 x spot ons to ward off/kill fleas (whether the dog has flea issues or not)

12 x chews for heart worm protection (if it isn't included as an additional chemical in the aforementioned spot-on).. Heart worm protection in some areas is necessary and warranted. But not necessarily in all areas of Australia (the colder climates are generally not congenial to the development of the heart worm to infectious stage).

12 x shampoo baths

12 x tick preventative (granted necessary for some environments).

Multiply each of those out by the amount of years we expect our dogs to live and that will give you an idea of how much chemical we fill our dogs bodies up with. And then put all of that out on a table and you'd really get a grasp of just what we are doing.

Then of course there's the frequent administration of antibiotics and/or cortisone when our dogs sport an injury; skin condition (which might be because of any of the above). These are great drugs, but IMO should be used judiciously rather than "just in case" as they frequently are these days.

I've gone further than just answering your immediate question and I hope I've made sense to you in my answer. I'm not a Vet and I am happy to stand corrected by any of our more learned DOLvets who (and I take my hat off to them) are always a fantastic wealth of information and education to us all here. This is just my personal opinion based on my own reading and experiences, expresses in my own layperson's manner of understanding.

what a fantastic answer! That was extremely informative! Thank you very much. I haven't read the rest of the comments yet so I will probably write another reply...

I do see where everyone is coming from in the way of chemicals - I never really thought of it that way. I just thought that the vaccinations wore off when the year came around and you had to vaccinate them again to help their immune systems fight off parvo if they were to get it (and I know that even if dogs are vaccinated against parvo they can still get it).

I give my dogs frontline plus every month (I actually had to give it to both my dogs 2 weeks after their monthly dose because they had fleas) and I also give them monthly worming chews (interceptor i think they're called - they are an all-in-one worming, including heart worm). I don't think I would be comfortable NOT giving them these monthly doses just because I am paranoid.

But I am definitely going to talk to my vet about having to vaccinate them every three years - I don't want to harm my dogs just because I am afraid to ask questions!!

[Leelaa17]

The titre test has a buffer level, my boys results show he has enough antibody in his system to last another 12 months, possibly another 24, if they are low and close to a score deemed not protected the results will tell you to re-vaccinate. I will get him done again in 12 months to see, from memory it cost about $70.00.

That is cheap! I thought it would be a ridiculous amount of money (normally blood tests are i think) but that's actually really good. Do you know whether all vets do the tests or would I need to go to a specific animal hospital or something?

I think I will definitely got my dogs tested when they come up for their yearlies... which, convenitently is around the same time as each other.

I don't think, however, that I wouldnt be able to not vaccinate them at all - I think I would just go insane with worry! :p

[RallyValley]

The titre test has a buffer level, my boys results show he has enough antibody in his system to last another 12 months, possibly another 24, if they are low and close to a score deemed not protected the results will tell you to re-vaccinate. I will get him done again in 12 months to see, from memory it cost about $70.00.

That is cheap! I thought it would be a ridiculous amount of money (normally blood tests are i think) but that's actually really good. Do you know whether all vets do the tests or would I need to go to a specific animal hospital or something?

I think I will definitely got my dogs tested when they come up for their yearlies... which, convenitently is around the same time as each other.

I don't think, however, that I wouldnt be able to not vaccinate them at all - I think I would just go insane with worry! :p

No idea how you would get it done in NSW sorry.

[Erny]

I give my dogs frontline plus every month (I actually had to give it to both my dogs 2 weeks after their monthly dose because they had fleas) and I also give them monthly worming chews (interceptor i think they're called - they are an all-in-one worming, including heart worm). I don't think I would be comfortable NOT giving them these monthly doses just because I am paranoid.

There is another way, though. I wormed my boy when he was a puppy (the usual puppy wormer routine). After that, I simply have a stool sample tested by the Vet. My boy is now rising 3yo and not one of those tests have shown that he has worms and so I have not needed to administer the drugs that kill these parasites.

But I am definitely going to talk to my vet about having to vaccinate them every three years - I don't want to harm my dogs just because I am afraid to ask questions!!

As I mentioned - it depends on your Vet as to whether they will speak contrary to what the drug manufacturers prescribe on their labels. Many Vets are not following AVA policy when it comes to vaccinations :p .

Edited April 5, 2011 by Erny

[silentchild]

A titre test at that later point might potentially show "negative" but it doesn't prove your dog didn't have the wherewithal to fight off the disease.

That confuses me a little, so let's say the titre test comes back as "negative" - how then would I know whether my dog really does not have the required antibodies hence requiring re-vaccination - or if its just that the antibodies have simply retreated to a cellular level hence no need to re-vaccinate?? :p

[spanky]

The titre test has a buffer level, my boys results show he has enough antibody in his system to last another 12 months, possibly another 24, if they are low and close to a score deemed not protected the results will tell you to re-vaccinate. I will get him done again in 12 months to see, from memory it cost about $70.00.

That is cheap! I thought it would be a ridiculous amount of money (normally blood tests are i think) but that's actually really good. Do you know whether all vets do the tests or would I need to go to a specific animal hospital or something?

I think I will definitely got my dogs tested when they come up for their yearlies... which, convenitently is around the same time as each other.

I don't think, however, that I wouldnt be able to not vaccinate them at all - I think I would just go insane with worry! :p

My vet charges $90. The blood needs to be sent to a lab in Perth, but this may have changed.

Not all vets titre, there are quite a few that don't know what it is and some just choose not to do it. Try a holistic vet in your area as they tend to do them.

If your still going to vac the dogs there is no point spending the money to titre.

[spanky]

A titre test at that later point might potentially show "negative" but it doesn't prove your dog didn't have the wherewithal to fight off the disease.

That confuses me a little, so let's say the titre test comes back as "negative" - how then would I know whether my dog really does not have the required antibodies hence requiring re-vaccination - or if its just that the antibodies have simply retreated to a cellular level hence no need to re-vaccinate?? :p

If it comes back under the minimum level you will be advised to vaccinate to keep a basic level of antibodies active in the body. There will probably always be antibodies in the body (even if at detectable levels).

[Erny]

That confuses me a little, so let's say the titre test comes back as "negative" - how then would I know whether my dog really does not have the required antibodies hence requiring re-vaccination - or if its just that the antibodies have simply retreated to a cellular level hence no need to re-vaccinate?? :p

This is where I begin to run out of knowledge and understanding, but I think this is the point where I either say to myself "I will re-vaccinate now" (even though I know it might rock my dog's immune system around a bit) or that I trust my reading and research and accept that once there have been antibodies, cell memory would be sufficient. This is also the point where I say someone more knowledgeable about this end of things than I am needs to explain it.

It's a pity dogs don't turn green when they were running out of immunity for these things.

[Sandra777]

A titre test at that later point might potentially show "negative" but it doesn't prove your dog didn't have the wherewithal to fight off the disease.

That confuses me a little, so let's say the titre test comes back as "negative" - how then would I know whether my dog really does not have the required antibodies hence requiring re-vaccination - or if its just that the antibodies have simply retreated to a cellular level hence no need to re-vaccinate??

Thing is you don't know. Many people are confident that their dog's immune system functions normally and would not be concerned so would not vaccinate again. Others would not be confident of this so would. This is your call.

Vaccines don't "wear off", they are intended to make the body's own immune system do what it's designed to do and produce the antibodies to fight a disease, just as it would if it encountered the disease for real.

Generally speaking once a dog (or person) has had a disease they are immune to that disease for life - because their immune system has fought off the disease and done what it's intended to do.

Just as an aside - when was the last time you were re-vaccinated with any of the core vaccines you received in childhood? Do you believe you are still immune to the diseases you were vaccinated for as a baby?

Edited April 5, 2011 by Sandra777

[skip]

I was talking to a vet the other day and asked his opinion on vacs and titres.

He said that it is true some vacs against some dog diseases do last more than one year. But he seemed to think some (2 at least he named) diseases need to be vaccinated against yearly. And his point was that if you need to vaccinate these 2 you may as well do them all.

He vaccinates his dogs and is happy to do. The titre test costs more than the vaccinations and he doesn't beleive vaccinations are harmful.

It is a bit confusing.

[Sandra777]

He said that it is true some vacs against some dog diseases do last more than one year. But he seemed to think some (2 at least he named) diseases need to be vaccinated against yearly. And his point was that if you need to vaccinate these 2 you may as well do them all.

Then I am curious to know why the American and the Australia Vet Associations now recommend 3 yearly vaccination

The titre test costs more than the vaccinations and he doesn't beleive vaccinations are harmful.

Cost really isn't the issue - it's the long term welfare of the dogs that I am concerned about. I have had a dog die on the vet's table within 5 minutes of being vaccinated so I really don't care what this vet believes - in SOME cases vaccination is fatal and I know this for a fact.

I repeat - when were you last given a booster vaccination for the diseases you were vaccinated against as a baby?

[Lollipup]

I was talking to a vet the other day and asked his opinion on vacs and titres.

He said that it is true some vacs against some dog diseases do last more than one year. But he seemed to think some (2 at least he named) diseases need to be vaccinated against yearly. And his point was that if you need to vaccinate these 2 you may as well do them all.

He vaccinates his dogs and is happy to do. The titre test costs more than the vaccinations and he doesn't beleive vaccinations are harmful.

It is a bit confusing.

C3 vacc (parvo, distemper, hepatitus) is thought to last 3 or more years. The other two components that make up the C5 vacc are for two strains of canine cough. Those vaccs apparently last only the one year. So you could split it up and have a C3 every 3 years and the 2 canine cough vaccs anually but apparently this costs more and its easier for the public to get one vacc yearly. The diseases that C3 protectes against are the deadly ones and it also protects against them better than the canine cough vaccine protects against canine cough.

While Australia mainly vaccinates against these 5 diseases, america vaccinates against 9 and therefore some of them do 3 vaccs the first year, then the next 3 the second year, then the last 3 the third year and therefore vaccinate every 3 years for each disease. And they are also putting more chemicals into their dogs altogether.

I got this info from a lecture by a vet on one of my course DVDs. Was just listening to it today. He also said most people decide against the titre test because of the cost and go the annual C5 because of the convenience.

I would rather give my dogs the least amount of chemicals possible but still ensure they are protected.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Lollipup