Holding A Dumbell/retrieving Dummy

[Mason_Gibbs]

Only use what you are comfortable with- particularly for an exercise like this where its not the end of the world if it takes a long time or if the dog is never reliable. :p I use some aversives in training- for things like a recall (if needed) but can't imagine a situation where i would use an ear pinch. A gentle touch or hold on the dogs muzzle i would consider in some situations in addition to shaping.

Have you introduced a release word/ cue to give up the dumbell? Does he play tug at all (with another toy)?

I have not used a release word as he is not holding it long enough for me to introduce one

[Nekhbet]

positive punishment is the application of an aversive in order to extinguish a behaviour (eg collar correction when the dog pulls on a leash)

negative reinforcement is the removal of an aversive (ear pinch) when you want to increase a behaviour (holding the dumbell)

The way the forced retrieve works is to place the dumbell in the dogs mouth and pinch the ear when it's not holding it properly. Good hold, release the ear pinch. Weak hold, apply ear pinch. Dog learns to hold the object firmly to avoid the ear pinch. It can be useful for dogs who simply dont want to hold properly. Is it good for all dogs? No. But no one method will suit all dogs now will it? Consistency is more then just a lost dinner. What is the point of training if you're dog half heartedly listens for anything? This comes down to life in general with the dog as well, not just trick training.

Squeeze your own ear lobe firmly? Are you now writhing in pain? No. Is it uncomfortable? Probably. It shouldn't be wrenching the dogs ear at all. The reason they want the dog to yelp is to sensitise it to the sensation. Again, a yelp in surprise is different to pain - if you cause true pain to the dog you will find it will be difficult to train anything at all.

The top two obedience dogs in WA have been trained through 2Q methods and never had a positive punishment, they reliably score high at trials and are competitve all around Australia, who says you need positive punishment to produce consistency?

I never said you did in this situation at all. And there's more to getting a top dog then just the training method. Smart handlers choose dogs that are achievers to ensure performance down the track.

As for e-collars they are not really primarily for positive punishment. They're better used in negative punishment situations such as dogs that compulsively run away etc at low stimulations then paired with high positive reinforcement (dog runs away from owner, hold stim. When dog turns towards owner stim is stopped. When dog is running towards owner and arrives massive praise) Again just a tool to help dogs along.

The treats in the mouth are a great way to teach a more natural focus and remove the dogs obsession with your hands. If the dog always looks to your face for a reward you're removing half the work down the track. It's how we start puppies off in Schutzhund at times, particularly the food obsessed ones.

*Edited due to Leema being right :p

Edited April 6, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Nekhbet]

I have not used a release word as he is not holding it long enough for me to introduce one

put it in his mouth, gently hold, then take back saying your release word when you have taken it (not before or you will bring back the spit out) then reward. Uta Bindels showed some video of this with her pups, there was no reward until the dumbell was in her hands and the dog was sitting nicely.

[Mason_Gibbs]

The strange thing is he will focus on me in obedience and ignore the food. I just think the penny has not dropped and he isnt sure what i want

[Nekhbet]

you dont usually have your reward hand busy doing other things like manupilate a dumbell in obdience :p

[corvus]

You only need a split second hold to mark it. If you truly can't squeeze in a marker, then change the game to more closely resemble a situation in which the dog would hold an item for longer. I snuck it into a play session. If you have a clicker-savvy dog you can capture it and shape from there.

you need to the dog to hold until told to release or you put your hands out to take it. WHere is the counterconditioning to not spit when the food is near?

There is no counter-conditioning because you don't need it. You just need to take it in smaller steps so he doesn't get a chance to spit before he gets marked for having it in his mouth. You can be a little tricksy and start saying your release cue like a marker and then you get the release without having to train a new cue. He will come to understand that the way to getting food is to hold the item. It becomes like a doggie zen exercise. My agility instructor taught me a variation for tugging in the presence of food. Food comes out while dog is tugging, then as soon as the dog releases the tug the food disappears again. The same thing might be quite effective here.

Holding food in your mouth builds both focus and allows you to have your hands free to hold the dumbell and dog. Dog learns that food is not in your hand.

Work on just spitting food first, then hold the dumbell with 2 hands in front of you and spit more food. The dog will learn food comes from mouth, and quickly learn to ignore your hands.

Uh... I'm yet to find a dog treat I want in my mouth. :p There are lots of ways to teach a dog to ignore the source of the treats.

I have no idea why you would use R- for this exercise. What's wrong with shaping? It achieves exactly the same thing with rewards instead of discomfort.

Mason2009, I reckon you're right and he doesn't know what is expected of him. IME it usually seems to be the case.

[Kavik]

I use cheese as treats and have put them in my mouth and spit them for the dog to catch for heeling in the past Not that difficult, and even my uncoordinated GSD learned how to catch them.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I use cheese as treats and have put them in my mouth and spit them for the dog to catch for heeling in the past Not that difficult, and even my uncoordinated GSD learned how to catch them.

Yes I would use cheese, all the other allergy friendly treats are just too gross to think about putting in my mouth lol

[Sayreovi]

I have been having the same problem with my puppy. So I've taken to setting her up in front of me and I am standing close enough that when she takes the dumbell she has no choice but to hold her head up with dumbell in mouth.

Personally I would start at that end and then progress to the retrieving part, or sit in a chair and to get a reward he places the bumper in your lap and just progress from there to him standing and holding and then him sitting and holding. You could even use the bumper as a reward here instead of food, when he places the bumper in your lap, you throw it for him to retrieve and it also sets him up for another go?

I am with you Mason and would never use an ear pinch, there are other ways to have a reliable and consistent retrieve. I also have a breed which will shut down if you use force so using an ear pinch is not the way to go.

Edited April 5, 2011 by tollersowned

[Leema]

negative punishment is the removal of an aversive (ear pinch) when you want to increase a behaviour (holding the dumbell)

No it's not. Punishment always decreases the likelihood of a behaviour.

The removal of the ear pinch is negative reinforcement (taking something bad away to act as a reward).

The application of the ear pinch in the first place is positive punishment (adding something bad to act as a punisher - the ear pinch punishes the dog for not taking the dumbell).

Negative punishment would be taking something rewarding away. E.g. if your dog really liked you, you could exit the room whenever the dog did something wrong.

[Aidan3]

Yesteday he took the dummy once, I clicked and treated and after that he sat and stared at me. I said too bad which is his NRM and I put the food and the dummy away.... not sure if that ws the right thing to do or not.

Are you holding the dummy in your hands?

So does it look like this?

1. present dummy

2. he touches

3. you click and treat

4. you're still holding the dummy in the same place

5. he's still sitting there wondering what you want him to do next?

If so, I would put the dummy behind my back and re-present it - just like you would with a target stick. Just about every dog I've ever trained will sit there with either a blank or expectant expression if you don't re-present a target. Presenting the target is a prompt or cue, in the absence of that prompt or cue, you often won't get the response (until the dog has learned that it is an extraneous cue).

[Jigsaw]

If your dog is super focused that you have food on you or coming from your hand remove the food away from immediately where you're training. Put it in a covered container. So when you mark you then run excitedly to the container with him, it might only be a metre or so away. Have you tried heeling him with the bumper in his mouth? Offer him objects other than the dumbbell such as toilet rolls, soft toys, rolled newspapers. You can even use your finger as you can really tell then when the dog is putting pressure on to hold.. Sometimes it's perservering through frustration as the dog takes, let's go, takes let's go. If the dog understands they have to take sometimes you have to let a little frustration build up. Don't reward for letting go. He wants that reward what does he have to do to get it, just hold it a fraction longer than the last one.

Due to my own food allergies I can't put a lot of treats in my mouth! don't think I would if I could though!

[Nekhbet]

sorry Leema you're right I was meant to write negative reinforcement instead of negative punishment have a new puppy in the house I'm sleep deprived

She tried to use me as a trampoline at 3am I just want to sleep

treats to use are bits of hotdog/kabana/cooked roast meat/jerky/cheese etc.

Corvus it was a suggestion, helps dogs just get the idea if they're consistently stuffing up or wont stop a behviour you dont want. For the 20th time, it was a suggestion I dont force anyone to do anything. I dont like confusing dogs further or trying to fix mistakes the hard way if another method can be done that helps the dog learn exactly what is required, whatever that method is for that particular dog. Some dogs learn faster with an aversive applied, but again horses for courses.

As for the tug/food game, your dumbell should not be used as a tug toy. It's not going to be a prey item in obedience routines it is an item to be retrieved. Spitting the treat can also help he handler get the hand and body movements right without trying to juggle 10 items at the same time. If you can take a shorter, straighter route to get to your end goal why complicate things.

[corvus]

Corvus it was a suggestion, helps dogs just get the idea if they're consistently stuffing up or wont stop a behviour you dont want.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it helps. So does breaking it down into smaller steps. There's a time and place for R-. I just can't imagine that this could be one of them.

As for the tug/food game, your dumbell should not be used as a tug toy.

I meant it as an example of a different way to get duration around food. You could adapt it to exclude tug easily enough. But if you want to spit food, go ahead. I'm sure that works as well. Knowing what I tend to put in my hands when I'm around my dogs, I don't think I could bring myself to do it! But each to their own. I remember someone telling me about show folks that keep liver treats between their teeth to get their dogs to keep looking up. Gross!

[Nekhbet]

dont worry there are plenty of us nutty enough to try, hell eat, the odd dog treat. Thats why I use human foods

[corvus]

dont worry there are plenty of us nutty enough to try, hell eat, the odd dog treat.

That would be my OH... I shrieked at him. He said they smelt really good. I asked him if they tasted as good as they smelt and he said yes.

[Uncle Zombie]

Nothing wrong in sampling the dog treats. How else do you know if the dog is going to like them.