Holding A Dumbell/retrieving Dummy

[Mason_Gibbs]

I recently taught my cruisey dog to hold onto a tug toy by just shaping it from scratch. When he gets excited and bouncy he will happily grab anything I hold out to him, so I got him a little bouncy and then clicked when he took hold of it. He instantly dropped it and got his food reward and wanted nothing to do with it after that as he was in food mode, so I picked up the toy and walked away. Next time I tried it he held it twice for a second with a food reward after each one. Once he understood that holding the toy got him a click and treat it wasn't that hard to move onto other things like duration and tug.

Anyway, I think you should just persist around the food. If ever I have a reward that is incompatible with another one I take steps to make it compatible. I don't want to have to pick my rewards based on what mood my dog is in or what other rewards are present. Of course, I do to a large extent, but my goal is the dog will happily work for whatever reward I want to use. I reward accepting less desirable rewards with more desirable rewards. The way I see it, it's just building up secondary reinforcers and a dog's ability to switch smoothly between rewards. You really want to play with the tug? Well, getting the ball is your gateway to playing with the tug. You want the food? Tugging on the tug is your gateway to getting the food. You want to chase the flirt pole? Well, chase the ball first and you can. When I first started doing this I couldn't imagine it working. But, it does. Very quickly IME.

I do agree with you, and its also a consistency in training, do something that i want you to do = food which you want BADLY!! Yesteday he took the dummy once, I clicked and treated and after that he sat and stared at me. I said too bad which is his NRM and I put the food and the dummy away.... not sure if that ws the right thing to do or not.

[sas]

I taught the dumbell the same way you did and good trainers told me that's the wrong way, you need to teach hold first not for the dog to 'take' or retrieve.

Dumb question... how do you teach hold separately, without teaching a take? Asked by a newbie in ignorance.

Was wondering the same thing...

From memory it was just about sitting with your dog casually and placing in its mouth, prasie etc.

I haven't done it that way so not sure of the details.

[Nekhbet]

I'm surprised you say your dog is too soft - you dont know until you try and its not about wrenching the dogs ear off either. If your dog really was too soft for an ear pinch it would be a nervous wreck in general but anyway.

To teach the way Meh has learned, you have the dog sitting in front of you, you can sit on a chair. Place the dumbell in the dogs mouth, when you feel teeth on then you can give a release dumbell command and take it back- with your dog I would be holding treats in my cheek and spitting only when you have taken the dumbell from the dogs mouth. What you want is a hold pattern where the dog will hold until told to drop, only then will it get the reward. You gradually make this exercise longer and longer but the dog has to be solidly holding the dumbell with minimal assistance, then no assistance from you when you have put it in its mouth. This method also prevents mouthing of the item.

You can use food, but you have to be clever about it. If you have to use too many NRM's then you're moving too fast for the dog or not being clear in what you want.

[corvus]

Or alternatively, use food and no NRMs. It'll improve your timing. You only get one chance to reinforce instead of two. :p

[Nekhbet]

how is using more food going to stop a dog spitting the dumbell and prolong the grip if the dog sees it and immediately spits?

Edited April 5, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Mason_Gibbs]

Nekhbet i refuse to use any methods where pain is involved, if it came down to using a method that uses pain or having a dog that never holds anything i would choose the 2nd option.

My dog is not at all nervous but he would hate me to hurt him and i would never do that to him - end of story

[RallyValley]

Nekhbet i refuse to use any methods where pain is involved, if it came down to using a method that uses pain or having a dog that never holds anything i would choose the 2nd option.

My dog is not at all nervous but he would hate me to hurt him and i would never do that to him - end of story

Agree. Can't think of any trick I would want to ever teach a dog badly enough that I would want to delibrately cause the dog physical discomfort for.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Nekhbet i refuse to use any methods where pain is involved, if it came down to using a method that uses pain or having a dog that never holds anything i would choose the 2nd option.

My dog is not at all nervous but he would hate me to hurt him and i would never do that to him - end of story

Agree. Can't think of any trick I would want to ever teach a dog badly enough that I would want to delibrately cause the dog physical discomfort for.

And i must add that at our dog club anyone who uses pain etc is asked to leave... Its not allowed and i agree with that.

[Leema]

Here's some 'teaching hold' ideas:

http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2011/03/ho...og-to-hold.html

[Kavik]

Have you tried stroking him under the chin while he holds the dumbell? I tried that and then progressed to stroking/patting his head and also touching the dumbell to help stop a mouthing problem with my GSD.

[corvus]

I love it when you ask these questions! :p

You only need a split second hold to mark it. If you truly can't squeeze in a marker, then change the game to more closely resemble a situation in which the dog would hold an item for longer. I snuck it into a play session. If you have a clicker-savvy dog you can capture it and shape from there.

[Nekhbet]

so no one has ever put a collar and leash on their dog and put any pressure on it at all? That is discomfort. Tethered your dog to the seat in the car by some manner? Never had to physically restrain your animal in any way, even holding its collar, to get a needle or another medical procedure? - that is discomfort too to get an end result.

I'm not pushing anyone to do anything. Just have an open mind about things and try and understand what they really are. If you are causing enough pain the dog is actually hurting you're doing it wrong. The point is to just pinch when the dog is not doing it right, then release when it is. It's an aid to help the dog understand what is correct, you still need to reward the animal.

Nekhbet i refuse to use any methods where pain is involved

So in fact it is not the dog, it is your preconceived ideals. Instead of writing up about the weak nature of your dog next time be honest, then people can give educated advice.

Agree. Can't think of any trick I would want to ever teach a dog badly enough that I would want to delibrately cause the dog physical discomfort for.

ahaa so nothing here is to ever be relied upon to be consistent? The op doesnt really care if the dog mouths the dumbell, retrieves straight or brings it back to her hand at all?

Remember these methods were born from necessity of both performance and reliability. Aversives can be useful when you've already stuffed up what you've been trying to train or you're just not getting the parameters to stick. Again not pushing anything on anyone, just a suggestion that may be useful to look at from an educated perspective.

[Mason_Gibbs]

Have you tried stroking him under the chin while he holds the dumbell? I tried that and then progressed to stroking/patting his head and also touching the dumbell to help stop a mouthing problem with my GSD.

I have tried to scratch under the chin, as soon as my hand is near his mouth he drops whatever he is holding

[Nekhbet]

You only need a split second hold to mark it. If you truly can't squeeze in a marker, then change the game to more closely resemble a situation in which the dog would hold an item for longer. I snuck it into a play session. If you have a clicker-savvy dog you can capture it and shape from there.

you need to the dog to hold until told to release or you put your hands out to take it. WHere is the counterconditioning to not spit when the food is near?

Holding food in your mouth builds both focus and allows you to have your hands free to hold the dumbell and dog. Dog learns that food is not in your hand.

Work on just spitting food first, then hold the dumbell with 2 hands in front of you and spit more food. The dog will learn food comes from mouth, and quickly learn to ignore your hands.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Kavik]

Have you tried stroking him under the chin while he holds the dumbell? I tried that and then progressed to stroking/patting his head and also touching the dumbell to help stop a mouthing problem with my GSD.

I have tried to scratch under the chin, as soon as my hand is near his mouth he drops whatever he is holding

What about getting progressively close to his mouth first? So bring your hand/s up then take them away, etc and then give release command? Then next time get closer and closer til you are able to stroke under chin/pat head/touch dumbell bars without him spitting it out until told? I pat then touch tumbell, then progress to trying to pull the dumbell and I want him to resist and keep holding it til I tell him to release.

[Mason_Gibbs]

My dog IS a soft natured dog AND i dont like to use methods which use pain. If my dog was not a soft natured dog i probably still would not use those methods. I had dogs before many years ago and was shown negative training type methods and its just not for me, i dont feel comfortable with it. It said in that link to pinch the ear until the dog yelps, which seems cruel.

Will try keeping the treat in my mouth though - good tip

Edited April 5, 2011 by Mason2009

[RallyValley]

Agree. Can't think of any trick I would want to ever teach a dog badly enough that I would want to delibrately cause the dog physical discomfort for.

ahaa so nothing here is to ever be relied upon to be consistent? The op doesnt really care if the dog mouths the dumbell, retrieves straight or brings it back to her hand at all?

Remember these methods were born from necessity of both performance and reliability. Aversives can be useful when you've already stuffed up what you've been trying to train or you're just not getting the parameters to stick. Again not pushing anything on anyone, just a suggestion that may be useful to look at from an educated perspective.

Yes they were born from nessecity back in the days when if your dog didn't get the bird you wasted a good bullet and a good duck and threw your earnings and dinner away and possibly went hungry. Now.. we train for pleasure, it would not give me any pleasure to teach with this method. I have witnessed with e-Collar training, even worn one and felt the jolt, I have decided this method is not one I could use, but I can see why other people do.

I am educated enough to know I could not use these methods, I am much too soft and would rather retire my dog from the sport then resort to a method that I was not comfortable with and confronted by.

The top two obedience dogs in WA have been trained through 2Q methods and never had a positive punishment, they reliably score high at trials and are competitve all around Australia, who says you need positive punishment to produce consistency?

[Kavik]

Agree. Can't think of any trick I would want to ever teach a dog badly enough that I would want to delibrately cause the dog physical discomfort for.

ahaa so nothing here is to ever be relied upon to be consistent? The op doesnt really care if the dog mouths the dumbell, retrieves straight or brings it back to her hand at all?

Remember these methods were born from necessity of both performance and reliability. Aversives can be useful when you've already stuffed up what you've been trying to train or you're just not getting the parameters to stick. Again not pushing anything on anyone, just a suggestion that may be useful to look at from an educated perspective.

Yes they were born from nessecity back in the days when if your dog didn't get the bird you wasted a good bullet and a good duck and threw your earnings and dinner away and possibly went hungry. Now.. we train for pleasure, it would not give me any pleasure to teach with this method. I have witnessed with e-Collar training, even worn one and felt the jolt, I have decided this method is not one I could use, but I can see why other people do.

I am educated enough to know I could not use these methods, I am much too soft and would rather retire my dog from the sport then resort to a method that I was not comfortable with and confronted by.

The top two obedience dogs in WA have been trained through 2Q methods and never had a positive punishment, they reliably score high at trials and are competitve all around Australia, who says you need positive punishment to produce consistency?

Actually the ear pinch and ecollar are using negative reinforcement :p I don't feel comfortable with it either.

[RallyValley]

Agree. Can't think of any trick I would want to ever teach a dog badly enough that I would want to delibrately cause the dog physical discomfort for.

ahaa so nothing here is to ever be relied upon to be consistent? The op doesnt really care if the dog mouths the dumbell, retrieves straight or brings it back to her hand at all?

Remember these methods were born from necessity of both performance and reliability. Aversives can be useful when you've already stuffed up what you've been trying to train or you're just not getting the parameters to stick. Again not pushing anything on anyone, just a suggestion that may be useful to look at from an educated perspective.

Yes they were born from nessecity back in the days when if your dog didn't get the bird you wasted a good bullet and a good duck and threw your earnings and dinner away and possibly went hungry. Now.. we train for pleasure, it would not give me any pleasure to teach with this method. I have witnessed with e-Collar training, even worn one and felt the jolt, I have decided this method is not one I could use, but I can see why other people do.

I am educated enough to know I could not use these methods, I am much too soft and would rather retire my dog from the sport then resort to a method that I was not comfortable with and confronted by.

The top two obedience dogs in WA have been trained through 2Q methods and never had a positive punishment, they reliably score high at trials and are competitve all around Australia, who says you need positive punishment to produce consistency?

Actually the ear pinch and ecollar are using negative reinforcement I don't feel comfortable with it either.

I have been reading this guy too much http://lumi-laddie-test-series.blogspot.com/ his terminology has got me a little confused . (Side note his Goldie won a JAM at his first field trial on Sunday and has never had a collar, or ear pinch, or toe pinch and plays tug, he trains his holds with a clicker :p )

[Cosmolo]

Only use what you are comfortable with- particularly for an exercise like this where its not the end of the world if it takes a long time or if the dog is never reliable. :p I use some aversives in training- for things like a recall (if needed) but can't imagine a situation where i would use an ear pinch. A gentle touch or hold on the dogs muzzle i would consider in some situations in addition to shaping.

Have you introduced a release word/ cue to give up the dumbell? Does he play tug at all (with another toy)?