Holding A Dumbell/retrieving Dummy

[Mason_Gibbs]

I have been really trying the last 5 weeks or so to get my lab to take things from me and hold them, but I am having no success. I tried clicking and treating when he looked at dummy, then he started touching with his nose, click treat again and progressed to him taking it from me, holding it in his mouth for a split second. BUT now the trouble comes in where he won't hold it in his mouth for longer if he thinks he may get a treat, because every dog knows treats cannot be eaten with something in the mouth!!

I really need some creative ideas here. If I dont treat him for holding the item then he just gives up and wont even show an interest in it at all.

PS the item I am using he only gets to see/have when we are training.

[The Spotted Devil]

Have you tried razzing him up with the dummy first? I find it also helps to go into the training session with a really relaxed and positive and fun attitude. Don't think about the end point but the tiny increments that will get you there. Any frustration on your part can put too much pressure on the dog (especially as you said he doesn't have a lot of retrieving drive). Make a huge deal of him for TRYING. You might be moving too quickly. Also, it's worth teaching a separate "front" which you can add in later. When you are outside and tossing dummies for fun remember not to expect him to deliver to you - run away and call him excitedly - get him loving the huge game of bringing back that dummy. Do you play rough games with your Lab? I love razzing Em up with our games in between retrieves - great for building positive associations.

How old is your dog again? I'm happy to film Em if what I've said doesn't make sense. It would help if you could get some video too.

[wuffles]

I am still working on this with Ava, she is not a big fan of the dumbbell, so I'm not sure how good my advice will be. But I spent AGES trying to get her to hold it and what finally worked was some advice from a wonderful DOLer - lightly placing my pinky under her chin when she took it off me to encourage a longer hold. It was an immediate 'a-ha' moment for her so now she will at least hold it (although looks tortured at having to do so ).

[Mason_Gibbs]

He likes to retrieve and we have no issue if its thrown he will go and get it, he will even come back to me but then just spits it at my feet. So what i have been working on is the hold as a seperate exercise.

He is a low drive dog, very laid back. But he is off like lightening if he needs to retrieve and if we doing obedience he is very enthusiastic

[The Spotted Devil]

Just thinking on what I do some more....when I'm shaping the retrieve and they start to pick it up I always move my hands so that they can't help but drop it in my hand and say 'give'. That seems to build an association. It took me 12 months to teach my Dally to retrieve properly lol

[Aidan3]

From the old version of "The Book of Training Levels" by Sue Ailsby:

"PROBLEM SOLVING:

SHE PUTS HER MOUTH ON IT AND THEN SPITS IT OUT SO FAST I CAN'T GET ANY KIND OF HOLD AT ALL! A normal step in the progression. She's been putting her mouth on the dumbell and you've been clicking. The click ends the behaviour, so she thinks the behaviour is to grab the dumbell and ungrab it as quickly as possible. Relax, we can fix this. Of COURSE you've been clicking as she hit the dumbell, rather than as she was moving away from it again, right?

Click X10 for the grab. Now let her grab and ungrab it, and you DO NOTHING. Sit there holding the dumbell out with an expectant look on your face and do NOTHING. She'll hit the dumbell once, spit it out, look at you, give you a "Hey, Stupid!" and hit it again. CLICK! You got two grabs for the price of one! Keep asking for two grabs before you click. If you start to lose the grab, by all means go back and pay X10 for a single grab, but then ask for the double again.

Ailsby's Principle Of Laziness says that it's easier to hold something than to grab it twice, so if you keep clicking the second grab, the behaviours (spitting it out and reaching for it again) between the two grabs will get slower and less enthusiastic. Sooner or later, she'll ask you if maybe she could just sit there holding it with you instead of actually spitting it out? And you'll agree that yeah, that would probably be OK… And bingo, you've got your longer hold."

( http://www.dragonflyllama.com/%20DOGS/Leve...17Retrieve.html )

[sas]

I taught the dumbell the same way you did and good trainers told me that's the wrong way, you need to teach hold first not for the dog to 'take' or retrieve.

[pipsqueak]

I taught the dumbell the same way you did and good trainers told me that's the wrong way, you need to teach hold first not for the dog to 'take' or retrieve.

Dumb question... how do you teach hold separately, without teaching a take? Asked by a newbie in ignorance.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I taught the dumbell the same way you did and good trainers told me that's the wrong way, you need to teach hold first not for the dog to 'take' or retrieve.

Dumb question... how do you teach hold separately, without teaching a take? Asked by a newbie in ignorance.

Was wondering the same thing...

[Staranais]

You can gently open the dog's mouth and pop it in.

But I don't believe there is only one right way to teach anything, let alone a retrieve.

[Nekhbet]

your dog is too obsessed with the food. Make sure you are not rewarding at all for the dog spitting it out. Put the dumbell in the dogs mouth and hold it there with your hand then click. Shaping only gets you so far with a dog thats now learned this habit.

There is the old method of forced retrieve http://www.versatiledogs.com/ask/ret8.html

I dont use dumbells as prey items and razz them up with it otherwise you end up with a dog that mouths the item which is not what you want, it has to be held there.

[Mason_Gibbs]

your dog is too obsessed with the food. Make sure you are not rewarding at all for the dog spitting it out. Put the dumbell in the dogs mouth and hold it there with your hand then click. Shaping only gets you so far with a dog thats now learned this habit.

There is the old method of forced retrieve http://www.versatiledogs.com/ask/ret8.html

I dont use dumbells as prey items and razz them up with it otherwise you end up with a dog that mouths the item which is not what you want, it has to be held there.

I have been told about the ear pinch method but will never use it. My dog is really soft and will just shut down if something like that was done to him. I think its cruel.

[The Spotted Devil]

Has he got a naturally soft typical gundog mouth Mason2009?

[Red Fox]

Have you seen any of the Michael Ellis DVDs?

Training the retrieve with Michael Ellis http://leerburg.com/224.htm

or download here http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=708

Very detailed and easy to understand if you already use marker based training. It's taught through back chaining with some low level compulsion (no ear pinch), breaking everything down into tiny segments.

This is another good link. The retrieve here is taught entirely through shaping:

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

[Mason_Gibbs]

Has he got a naturally soft typical gundog mouth Mason2009?

Hmm I dont think i really know enough to answer lol, he is my first gundog. He loves carrying stuff around in his mouth and is always bringing me things. He just wont do it when treats are around!!

[Mason_Gibbs]

Have you seen any of the Michael Ellis DVDs?

Training the retrieve with Michael Ellis http://leerburg.com/224.htm

or download here http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=708

Very detailed and easy to understand if you already use marker based training. It's taught through back chaining with some low level compulsion (no ear pinch), breaking everything down into tiny segments.

This is another good link. The retrieve here is taught entirely through shaping:

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/retrieve.html

I have looked at Shirleys website and I think its great, but I am beginning to think that I am going to have to train him without food as a reward for teaching the hold exercise, he is too obsessed with food to even try and make an effort to hold the dummy.

[The Spotted Devil]

Has he got a naturally soft typical gundog mouth Mason2009?

Hmm I dont think i really know enough to answer lol, he is my first gundog. He loves carrying stuff around in his mouth and is always bringing me things. He just wont do it when treats are around!!

If he really loves retrieving - could you use that as a reward instead? What we call in retrieving, a "happy bumper".

[Mason_Gibbs]

Has he got a naturally soft typical gundog mouth Mason2009?

Hmm I dont think i really know enough to answer lol, he is my first gundog. He loves carrying stuff around in his mouth and is always bringing me things. He just wont do it when treats are around!!

If he really loves retrieving - could you use that as a reward instead? What we call in retrieving, a "happy bumper".

Yes myself and the lady I train with do do that and he loves it but just wont take things from my hand and hold them, or pick things up and hold them when we would like him to.

[Red Fox]

Where do you keep your treats during training? Do you have them in a pouch behind your back or in a container out of sight? Or are you holding it in your hand/pouch at the front/in plain sight?

You'll need to teach him to focus on you and not the food if he is so distracted by it. You'll want to do that outside of the retrieving work though.

[corvus]

I recently taught my cruisey dog to hold onto a tug toy by just shaping it from scratch. When he gets excited and bouncy he will happily grab anything I hold out to him, so I got him a little bouncy and then clicked when he took hold of it. He instantly dropped it and got his food reward and wanted nothing to do with it after that as he was in food mode, so I picked up the toy and walked away. Next time I tried it he held it twice for a second with a food reward after each one. Once he understood that holding the toy got him a click and treat it wasn't that hard to move onto other things like duration and tug.

Anyway, I think you should just persist around the food. If ever I have a reward that is incompatible with another one I take steps to make it compatible. I don't want to have to pick my rewards based on what mood my dog is in or what other rewards are present. Of course, I do to a large extent, but my goal is the dog will happily work for whatever reward I want to use. I reward accepting less desirable rewards with more desirable rewards. The way I see it, it's just building up secondary reinforcers and a dog's ability to switch smoothly between rewards. You really want to play with the tug? Well, getting the ball is your gateway to playing with the tug. You want the food? Tugging on the tug is your gateway to getting the food. You want to chase the flirt pole? Well, chase the ball first and you can. When I first started doing this I couldn't imagine it working. But, it does. Very quickly IME.