Victoria

[Trisven13]

Dogs can't just be left in care for months on end without professional guidance and a professional approach on how to solve any problems.

Doesn't matter how much professional guidance or professional approach you use - it won't stop an ordinary brindle mutt from being an ordinary brindle mutt which has a higher chance of being in foster care for longer than average. Should they then not be rescued?

I always based my decisions on what to rescue from the pounds on a variety of factors but the major one was temperament. Dogs stayed in foster care for longer based on their temperaments too - I have pts a dog that was in long-term care but ONLY because he had temperament issues that were unresolvable. Sometimes great dogs spend a long time in care but I don't think that length of time in care should decide whether or not a dog lives or dies and I don't, honestly, think that a vet is any better able to make that decision than a rescuer.

From what I've read I don't think that these laws are going to do anything to stop the cowboys.

ETA I was never comfortable with euthanising a dog purely because it hadn't rehomed within a required period when it was healthy and of a good nature. If the dog was in foster care for more than 3 months and had major temperament issues that would be a different story but I have no issues with keeping a great dog in a great foster home for an extended period. Some of my absolute favourite dogs we rehomed were long-termers - one took over 12 months to find a home but it was the most fabulous home.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Trisven13

[Steve]

Dogs can't just be left in care for months on end without professional guidance and a professional approach on how to solve any problems.

Doesn't matter how much professional guidance or professional approach you use - it won't stop an ordinary brindle mutt from being an ordinary brindle mutt which has a higher chance of being in foster care for longer than average. Should they then not be rescued?

I always based my decisions on what to rescue from the pounds on a variety of factors but the major one was temperament. Dogs stayed in foster care for longer based on their temperaments too - I have pts a dog that was in long-term care but ONLY because he had temperament issues that were unresolvable. Sometimes great dogs spend a long time in care but I don't think that length of time in care should decide whether or not a dog lives or dies and I don't, honestly, think that a vet is any better able to make that decision than a rescuer.

From what I've read I don't think that these laws are going to do anything to stop the cowboys.

ETA I was never comfortable with euthanising a dog purely because it hadn't rehomed within a required period when it was healthy and of a good nature. If the dog was in foster care for more than 3 months and had major temperament issues that would be a different story but I have no issues with keeping a great dog in a great foster home for an extended period. Some of my absolute favourite dogs we rehomed were long-termers - one took over 12 months to find a home but it was the most fabulous home.

Yep thats about how I see it too. Just seems to me that there will be more cowboys rather than less.

[Maddy]

If a pup is too young, small and lightweight to be desexed, there are problems associated with taking it out in public.

A dog that is considered not suitable for desexing could still be provided the socialisation needed (outisde the home) without placing their health at any risk.

In my opinion, locking away a puppy during its critical socialisation period (for human socialisation) has greater long-term risks for the animal and will only decrease the chances it will pass temperament assessment and be suitable for rehoming.

The laws are designed so that dogs cannot just be out in foster homes doing nothing, getting older and less rehomable by the day.

In regards to puppies, I'm of the opinion they're far better off developing in a foster environment with proper socialisation and training in place than being rehomed as adorable 8 week old puppies to the average home where they (so often) end up with issues that become increasingly difficult to manage (before the issues finally become too much to handle and the dog is dumped as a young adult- ending right back in rescue's lap).

Personally, I wouldn't rehome a dog until it was 6 months of age. I understand that in larger rescue it's not always possible to keep dogs that long but the longer, the better. Rescue shouldn't be just about rehoming as many dogs as quickly as possible but ensuring dogs that are rehomed stay rehomed.

Edited for typo

Edited April 8, 2011 by Hardy's Angel

[Greytmate]

If a pup is too young, small and lightweight to be desexed, there are problems associated with taking it out in public.

A dog that is considered not suitable for desexing could still be provided the socialisation needed (outisde the home) without placing their health at any risk.

In my opinion, locking away a puppy during its critical socialisation period (for human socialisation) has greater long-term risks for the animal and will only decrease the chances it will pass temperament assessment and be suitable for rehoming.

The laws are designed so that dogs cannot just be out in foster homes doing nothing, getting older and less rehomable by the day.

In regards to puppies, I'm of the opinion they're far better off developing in a foster environment with proper socialisation and training in place than being rehomed as adorable 8 week old puppies to the average home where they (so often) end up with issues that become increasingly difficult to manage (before the issues finally become too much to handle and the dog is dumped as a young adult- ending right back in rescue's lap).

Personally, I wouldn't rehome a dog until it was 6 months of age. I understand that in larger rescue it's not always possible to keep dogs that long but the longer, the better. Rescue shouldn't be just about rehoming as many dogs as quickly as possible but ensuring dogs that are rehomed stay rehomed.

Edited for typo

So present the evidence you have for this, because obviously the advice given to write this law (possibly from the AVA) conflicts with what you say.

I see good and bad points with bringing baby puppies out in public.

I am against foster carers purposefully withholding pups from sale until they are six months old. Dogs are ideally rehomed between 8 and 12 weeks of age. Rehoming them at older ages is mentally tougher on the dogs, and unnecessary, given that baby pups are much easier to sell than older pups.

There are plenty of 'serial dog owners' masquerading as foster carers of pups. In what other situation could you repeatedly get free baby puppies, and then be able to pass them on, without looking like an irresponsible dog owner? Get them while they are cute and little, allow them to bond with you over a few months, then when they lose their baby looks and start to get harder to handle, sell them?

The vast majority of dog owners want to buy baby pups, not older pups. Regardless of whether you think they can be trusted to raise them or not.

[Cosmolo]

In some cases, pups are going to be provided with better opportunities for socialisation and training in an adoptive home. Rehoming dogs at 6 months of age would not be my preference from a developmental point of view.

[Maddy]

I am against foster carers purposefully withholding pups from sale until they are six months old. Dogs are ideally rehomed between 8 and 12 weeks of age. Rehoming them at older ages is mentally tougher on the dogs, and unnecessary, given that baby pups are much easier to sell than older pups.

One very sound reason (again, in my opinion) for not rehoming until the dog is out of the "cute puppy phase" is the issue of impulse buying based on looks. It's how pet shops sell dogs and from what I've seen, happens in rescue, too.

An adult dog (or at least an older dog) is not an adorable bundle of fluff that someone "just can't say no to". An older dog is going to be closer to the adult size, closer to adult appearance and the reality is, it's the dog you're going to have in a few months time anyway, once the puppy grows out of cuteness.

Puppies may well be easily to sell than adults but I don't think it's always for the best reasons.

Also, the argument that (presumably) this is an recommendation from the AVA is ignoring the fact that (again, presumably) the AVA is also recommending dogs undergo weekly vet checks. Just because the AVA recommends it, doesn't mean it's necessarily in the best interests of the dog or the right thing for rescue. Up until 2009, the AVA were still recommending annual vaccinations for dogs and cats.

There are plenty of 'serial dog owners' masquerading as foster carers of pups.

By this argument, anyone who fosters could be considered just a "serial dog owner". Take on a new dog (a novel, exciting new thing in your home), enjoy the experience of having a new dog around for 6 to 8 weeks before passing it on to someone else and getting your next shiny, new toy.

Personally, I could think of nothing worse than a home constantly managing puppies and puppy behaviour, I imagine it's something that'd take a lot of patience. Puppies aren't all cuddles and fun and even the most committed "serial dog owner" is eventually going to get sick of cleaning up puddles in their house (likely before they've even finished fostering their first dog- if someone isn't capable of the commitment involved in raising a dog and keeping it as an adult, how long are they going to put up with the more annoying puppy behaviours for? Not for long, would be my guess.

[Greytmate]

You really are in the minority if you believe that pups should be kept for six months before being rehomed. Not only is it better that a pup should go to its home at 8-12 weeks of age, but the chances are if they don't get a home by that age, they maybe never will. If somebody wants to buy a pup, they will go to whoever is selling puppies. If you withhold them from the market, the older they get the harder they are to find homes for.

I don't know any breeders that think that it is in the dog's best interest to keep it and rehome it at six months. Whether a dog comes back or not has more to do with whether the owner can manage the dog, not what age they bought the pup at.

It is a pretty big call to suggest that only rescuers (or breeders?) can be trusted to raise pups, and not the pup's owners.

Fostering baby puppies is nothing at all like fostering adult dogs. Adult dogs get easier to manage as time goes on, baby puppies get a lot harder before they become easier again. There are people that only want to foster pups, but refuse to take on adult dogs. The priority should be to get a pup homed at 8-12 weeks, and not just to put it into foster care.

You need to read the document and be clear about where they are talking about juvenile foster, and where they are talking behavioural foster care. If you don't know the difference between the objectives for each type of care, you are not going to be able to make sense of the document.

[sandgrubber]

Agreed.

Note the requirement for foster carers with juveniles (defined as puppies or kittens, no age specified) assess and record the weight and condition of the animal in their care on a daily basis

Come on. In the first week or two, many of us weigh pups daily or a few times a week, but I don't know anyone who does so at four months. I only skimmed the text, but there were a few things that seem over the top.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It will be the dimise of foster carers.....domino affect, small rescues and shelters will be forced to close....so ditto what shortstep said.

Edited April 16, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Aphra]

There are lots of good reasons why people might want a young puppy rather than an adult dog anyway. just as there are good reasons why some people prefer an adult dog to a puppy. People with cats often like to adopt puppies because they can socialise their dog with their cat without so much risk to the cat. Some people like the idea of raising a puppy their way or just like having a dog from a young age. If you're taking a puppy from rescue it's hard to do it on impulse, at least via a rescue group. The last litter of puppies I rehomed took the adopters about a month from whoa to go.

I prefer our puppies to go out as soon as possible after they are well recovered from their desexing; I think going into their own homes as an only puppy gives them much more opportunity for socialisation than staying with me as one of several pups.

In some cases, pups are going to be provided with better opportunities for socialisation and training in an adoptive home. Rehoming dogs at 6 months of age would not be my preference from a developmental point of view.

[The Spotted Devil]

Agreed.

Note the requirement for foster carers with juveniles (defined as puppies or kittens, no age specified) assess and record the weight and condition of the animal in their care on a daily basis

Come on. In the first week or two, many of us weigh pups daily or a few times a week, but I don't know anyone who does so at four months. I only skimmed the text, but there were a few things that seem over the top.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It will be the dimise of foster carers.....domino affect, small rescues and shelters will be forced to close....so ditto what shortstep said.

Kittens are defined as being less than 12 weeks. Puppies less than 16 weeks. See definitions at beginning of document. The hardest thing about that is having an accurate scale that picks up 7-10g/day weight gains for kittens.

[Greytmate]

Agreed.

Note the requirement for foster carers with juveniles (defined as puppies or kittens, no age specified) assess and record the weight and condition of the animal in their care on a daily basis

Come on. In the first week or two, many of us weigh pups daily or a few times a week, but I don't know anyone who does so at four months. I only skimmed the text, but there were a few things that seem over the top.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

It will be the dimise of foster carers.....domino affect, small rescues and shelters will be forced to close....so ditto what shortstep said.

Kittens are defined as being less than 12 weeks. Puppies less than 16 weeks. See definitions at beginning of document. The hardest thing about that is having an accurate scale that picks up 7-10g/day weight gains for kittens.

Yes. Besides that, at any age, a pup or kitten too lightweight to be desexed would need their weight monitored closely.

I think that weighing foster animals (of any age) regularly is a good way to monitor their progress while in care.