The Fine Print

[Steve]

Please anyone who is intending to enter an agreement with a business which is dog related- vet, groomer, boarding kennel etc - read the fine print.

Dont agree for them to have a lean on your dog indefinitely as long as you owe them any money unless you are very very sure that there will be no surpises which will prevent you paying the account in full when you have agreed to.

It works the same way as a hire purchase agreement on a car. You cant sell them - if you do they are still legally the person who has the lean on them. They can be possessed and sold, kept or PTS. Its iron clad and even though common sense says no one would ever come and grab your dogs and do this if you owned them money it appears some do.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Steve

[poodlefan]

Please anyone who is intending to enter an agreement with a business which is dog related- vet, groomer, boarding kennel etc - read the fine print.

Dont agree for them to have a lean on your dog indefinitely as long as you owe them any money unless you are very very sure that there will be no surpises which will prevent you paying the account in full when you have agreed to.

It works the same way as a hire purchase agreement on a car. You cant sell them - if you do they are still legally the person who has the lean on them. They can be possessed and sold, kept or PTS. Its iron clad and even though common sense says no one would ever come and grab your dogs and do this if you owned them money it appears some do.

Steve, this isn't quite correct. A lien over property allows the person to whom the debt is owed to retain it until the debt is paid. The property can only be sold if the debt won't be repaid. Basically you don't get the dog back until you've paid. It doesn't give a right to seize a returned dog.

I have to say I've never heard of it with regard to dog related businesses.

[Maddy]

Please anyone who is intending to enter an agreement with a business which is dog related- vet, groomer, boarding kennel etc - read the fine print.

Dont agree for them to have a lean on your dog indefinitely as long as you owe them any money unless you are very very sure that there will be no surpises which will prevent you paying the account in full when you have agreed to.

It works the same way as a hire purchase agreement on a car. You cant sell them - if you do they are still legally the person who has the lean on them. They can be possessed and sold, kept or PTS. Its iron clad and even though common sense says no one would ever come and grab your dogs and do this if you owned them money it appears some do.

Steve, this isn't quite correct. A lien over property allows the person to whom the debt is owed to retain it until the debt is paid. The property can only be sold if the debt won't be repaid. Basically you don't get the dog back until you've paid. It doesn't give a right to seize a returned dog.

I have to say I've never heard of it with regard to dog related businesses.

I've never heard about it happening in regards to groomers or vets but I have heard of it happening with boarding kennels (animals being retained, that is. Not animals being seized back by creditors).

I had a quick look at the web site of one local boarding facility and this was one of their terms-

Payment is due at the completion of service prior to the collection of the pet.

Presumably, this means the pet could not be collected until payment is made.

Whether or not further fees would be charged up until payment or whether animals would sold to cover costs isn't mentioned. I'd assume that information would only be available in the actual forms signed to enter an animal (assuming, again, that they even have such a form).

[Danois]

Liens are pretty standard in boarding kennel terms and conditions - same for agistment contracts.

I don't have an issue with them per se. If you boarded your dog without paying in advance and then said you would not pay/ could not pay then the retention of your animal is the security for the debt until such time as it is discharged. If the kennel let you leave with dog and without paying, they're left with a bad debt - not really fair on a small business.

If you have every intention of paying for the services then a lien in a contract is not a big deal.

It would be hard for them to claim a lien if you did not get/ sign any terms or they weren't displayed/ brought to your attention.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with Danois. Steve- what should boarding kennels do when owners come to collect and can't pay the money owed?

[Maddy]

I agree with Danois. Steve- what should boarding kennels do when owners come to collect and can't pay the money owed?

Requiring payment in advance would probably solve that issue.

Although if the dog ended up staying longer or incurring additional charges somehow, you'd still be stuck in the same position (although you'd at least not be out by quite so much money if you'd already gotten the expected amount from them).

[Cosmolo]

True. But there are so often variances and adjustments with $$ that i understand why some kennels don't want to take payment first.

[stormie]

I don't understand. Why not? The AVA state that Vets have a legal right to do this, that is, retain an animal until the outstanding bill is payed, so long as the agreement to do this was made known prior.

[Steve]

Please anyone who is intending to enter an agreement with a business which is dog related- vet, groomer, boarding kennel etc - read the fine print.

Dont agree for them to have a lean on your dog indefinitely as long as you owe them any money unless you are very very sure that there will be no surpises which will prevent you paying the account in full when you have agreed to.

It works the same way as a hire purchase agreement on a car. You cant sell them - if you do they are still legally the person who has the lean on them. They can be possessed and sold, kept or PTS. Its iron clad and even though common sense says no one would ever come and grab your dogs and do this if you owned them money it appears some do.

Steve, this isn't quite correct. A lien over property allows the person to whom the debt is owed to retain it until the debt is paid. The property can only be sold if the debt won't be repaid. Basically you don't get the dog back until you've paid. It doesn't give a right to seize a returned dog.

I have to say I've never heard of it with regard to dog related businesses.

I have a contract in my hand which someone signed .

In one part there is the wording as you have indicated. A little further down it states that the owner agrees the lien stays whether the dog is in their custody or not until all money is paid.

We have had a couple of different legal people look at it and we are being told its sticks and so is the person who owns the dogs and the people who are owed the money and are involved do not hold the animals. I does give the right in this case for them to have the dog returned to them for disposal. In other words repossessed.

It will be tested and its hard to believe it could stick as worded but it sure as hell is causing a lot of stress even if it doesnt.

[Steve]

I agree with Danois. Steve- what should boarding kennels do when owners come to collect and can't pay the money owed?

Im not commenting on whether a boarding kennel should or should not do one thing or another in order to get what is owing to them. Im saying read the contract and be bloody sure you know what you are signing. Im not talking about a situation where they hold your animal until you pay.

[poodlefan]

I agree with Danois. Steve- what should boarding kennels do when owners come to collect and can't pay the money owed?

Im not commenting on whether a boarding kennel should or should not do one thing or another in order to get what is owing to them. Im saying read the contract and be bloody sure you know what you are signing. Im not talking about a situation where they hold your animal until you pay.

That's what a traditional lien is.

I fail to see why any right minded business would want to send the sheriffs in to seize a dog as payment for debt if there's a car in the driveway and a plasma TV in the lounge. Your average mutt isn't worth much.

A lien that allows property to return to the owner and then be repossessed? It will be interesting to see what the courts make of it.

[john.davey.1960]

Sounds very much like an HP agreement. The lien is on the animal, not the other goods. If selling the pet doesn't repay the debt they'll then probably go after the car etc.

[Steve]

I agree with Danois. Steve- what should boarding kennels do when owners come to collect and can't pay the money owed?

Im not commenting on whether a boarding kennel should or should not do one thing or another in order to get what is owing to them. Im saying read the contract and be bloody sure you know what you are signing. Im not talking about a situation where they hold your animal until you pay.

That's what a traditional lien is.

I fail to see why any right minded business would want to send the sheriffs in to seize a dog as payment for debt if there's a car in the driveway and a plasma TV in the lounge. Your average mutt isn't worth much.

A lien that allows property to return to the owner and then be repossessed? It will be interesting to see what the courts make of it.

Its in court in the next month. And like you I was aware that some businesses had clauses which say if you dont pay you dont get your animal back. From my understanding - prior to this one I thought if you had your animal and it was no longer in their possession it was no longer possible to use your animals as surity.

However, it appears there are some contracts which have included an extra clause which actually does allow you to take them home but if you dont pay outstanding amounts or if they refuse your offer of instalment amounts they can - legally - literally take your dog.

Im not saying you shouldnt pay your bills or that kennels,vets etc shouldnt have some way of getting their money but once someone signs this and then cant pay and wants help - Pacers cant help much. If you come to us telling us if you dont pay a $10,000 bill your animals will be repossessed and it turns out thats true we dont have those kind of resources.

[wayrod]

This is actually written into the Domestic Animals Act in Victoria.

Domestic Animals Act 1994 - SECT 65

Liens over animals

65. Liens over animals

(1) The proprietor of a place where a dog or cat is being boarded has a lien

over that animal for any amount the proprietor is entitled to under subsection

(2).

(2) The holder of a lien under subsection (1) may retain that animal until-

(a) any sums owing to him or her have been paid in full; and

(b) any additional expenses incurred by him or her in caring for the

animal have been paid.

(3) Despite this section, the owner of an animal which has been left in the

possession of another person without the owner's consent may recover that

animal.

(4) A lien under this section continues to exist even though the lien holder

allows the animal to be taken temporarily out of his or her custody or

possession.

(5) A person must not-

(a) remove an animal from a person who holds a lien over that animal; or

(b) retain custody or possession of an animal over which a lien is held-

without the consent of the lien holder. Penalty: 3 penalty units.

Edited April 2, 2011 by wayrod

[zenchel]

Thanks Wayne, saved me looking up the wording

This is actually written into the Domestic Animals Act in Victoria.

Domestic Animals Act 1994 - SECT 65

Liens over animals

65. Liens over animals

(1) The proprietor of a place where a dog or cat is being boarded has a lien

over that animal for any amount the proprietor is entitled to under subsection

(2).

(2) The holder of a lien under subsection (1) may retain that animal until-

(a) any sums owing to him or her have been paid in full; and

(b) any additional expenses incurred by him or her in caring for the

animal have been paid.

(3) Despite this section, the owner of an animal which has been left in the

possession of another person without the owner's consent may recover that

animal.

(4) A lien under this section continues to exist even though the lien holder

allows the animal to be taken temporarily out of his or her custody or

possession.

(5) A person must not-

(a) remove an animal from a person who holds a lien over that animal; or

(b) retain custody or possession of an animal over which a lien is held-

without the consent of the lien holder. Penalty: 3 penalty units.

[Poo-Fong]

Yes people, read the fine print... but more importantly, don't screw people over in the first place so they may be forced to use this clause to have any hope of getting the money they are owed!!

[Danois]

Just to clarify too - if you repay all the amount owing (which may include interests and costs - dependent on the agreement) then they must return the dog otherwise the law of equity and principles such as unjust enrichment would come into play.