Buying A Labrador Puppy- Advice Please

[drifter]

Hi, I'm a newbie here so please be gentle! I originally posted this in the puppy section and it was suggested I repost in general- hopefully this is the right spot We are planning to purchase a labrador puppy (our first) and I'm hoping for some advice. Pups are 3 weeks old. Dams hips are 8:10, sire 1:1. Both elbows 0:0, PRA clear by parentage. Are these hip scores OK? I rang another breeder who said that they were slightly higher than normal but not really a concern, and I also rang a vet who said he wouldn't be worried by these scores. I guess I just wonder whether others agree with this. The breeder says that the dam has had a previous litter with no known problems. One of her pups from that litter was scored at 5:5. Anything else I should be looking out for? I'm trying to do the right thing by going with a reputable breeder but how do I know if they are?? Thanks for any help you can offer.

[Baby Dragon]

You will probably get some answers in here, but if you like, try the Labrador thread

Edited April 1, 2011 by Baby Dragon

[drifter]

You will probably get some answers in here, but if you like, try the Labrador thread

I tried that but it keeps telling me I don't have permission to start a new post. I think I'm a forum failure!

[cassie]

The breed average for Lab hip scores (according to the AVA) is 9.4 so a score of 18 is above average. However the hips are relatively even, from what I understand it is better to be 8:10 than say 2:16. Happy to be corrected if that isn't true.

I don't know too much about Lab hips though, hopefully others will give you a better idea. Good on you for doing your research first

[mr.mister]

You will probably get some answers in here, but if you like, try the Labrador thread

I tried that but it keeps telling me I don't have permission to start a new post. I think I'm a forum failure!

Are you trying to start a new post or post a comment? Because you can't start a new post in a post, so to speak.

[drifter]

Thanks for your help- have re-posted in the labrador thread

[shortstep]

The answer to your question in not straight forward.

For any litter, I would want to know the following information.

1. Parents score and how old were they when scored. If they have a high score, (like the dam of this litter) and they were scored at under 2 years of age, I would be very suspect that the hips have gotten worse as the dog matured. Any higher score should always be rechecked after 2 years of age. Lower scores do not need to be rechecked, as even if they do get a little worse they will still be well with in normal range.

2. I would want to know the scores of as many relatives as possible, also the number of relative dogs that have not been scored. For example all the siblings of dam and sire. All the siblings of grand parents. Why is this is important, because this is showing you the family genetic picture.

For example if the 1-1 sire has even a single sibling with HD that would be a big red light on this litter for me. If the dam has 6 siblings tested and all are under 10 total and there are no missing sibling that were not scored, that would be a big plus for her. If neither have more than a few dogs here or there tested, then that is not enough information to be considered a good record (for example there are likely at least 6 litter siblings maybe many half siblings and the same for the grandparents, could be 20-40 dogs or more that are close relatives). Absence of knowledge is not indicative that there were not relatives with HD.

3. You say the first litter has not had any problems. How old are they, if under 2 years then it is too soon to know for sure that there is not a problem. Also how many were actually x-rayed? Young dogs often do not show symptoms of HD, so again lack of knowledge does not mean everything is fine. With a dam with this high a score if I had been the breeder I would be getting every pups of her's looked at before I bred her again.

Also is it the same sire as the first litter? Different stud can be very different outcome.

4. I would be looking at how fast this line grows up (are the quick to reach mature size), how heavy/big they will get, how big boned they are. All of these can effect the prognosis of HD, slow growth, smaller bone and less bulk all help reduce the risk.

After I gathered all this information together, I would assess how much you do not know (how many missing dogs that have not been scored) and how much you do know, look at the lines growth and size and them see what it tells you. You may find that what you really know is only a very few dogs scores and a whole lot of dogs you no nothing about. If that is the case, personally I would look for another breeder that can give you a lot more of the above information. Hips have been a long standing problem in this breed, so breeders should have all sorts of monitors and information gathering in place. If not then I would be looking elsewhere.

BTW in OFA where the scores are put into words so helps you to understand what the score means,

10-8 would be considered Poor hips. The OFA scale is Excellent, Good, Fair, Poor, Borderline, Mild, Moderate, Severe.

Her score alone is not a reason to not breed her. However you would want a very good and complete history on her family and you would want to assure you put her to a line (sire) that has a long and complete record of good hips. At least that is what I would be doing. I might also add that I would be trying to do about the same for any breeding even if both parents have low scores. The more you know the better.

Edited April 1, 2011 by shortstep

[jakeyjangels]

Hi, I'm a newbie here so please be gentle! I originally posted this in the puppy section and it was suggested I repost in general- hopefully this is the right spot We are planning to purchase a labrador puppy (our first) and I'm hoping for some advice. Pups are 3 weeks old. Dams hips are 8:10, sire 1:1. Both elbows 0:0, PRA clear by parentage. Are these hip scores OK? I rang another breeder who said that they were slightly higher than normal but not really a concern, and I also rang a vet who said he wouldn't be worried by these scores. I guess I just wonder whether others agree with this. The breeder says that the dam has had a previous litter with no known problems. One of her pups from that litter was scored at 5:5. Anything else I should be looking out for? I'm trying to do the right thing by going with a reputable breeder but how do I know if they are?? Thanks for any help you can offer.

Hi Drifter.

We have a 15 month old Labrador boy (& previously a much loved nearly 15 year old boy) & we went through similar concerns when looking for a new puppy. (Also with posting probs on DOL as well!!) Our boys Dam score 6:4, Sire 5:7 Elbows 0:0 & both PRA clear & EIC clear. So far we have had no health problems with Jangels.

I can understand your concerns re your dams scores but as there is so many conflicting breed average scores, I found it very difficult to work out the cut off score. From my experiences, the scoring is no guarantee whatsoever of the future of your puppy developing hip dysplasia. But a good start. Not all hip dysplasia is heridatory & there are so many other factors to consider in reducing the risk- eg lifestyle. Not over exercising up until 18 months of age ( no long boring walks as back yard play is all they need for their exercise because they know/have the option to rest when they are tired or sore) which allows their bones to set correctly without unneeded pressure , No stairs or jumping in or out of cars, no walking on dry sand at the beach & diet is very important - ensuring they eat lots of raw meaty bones so that they gets lots of calcium from the bones (bones grow bones) are some of the instructions we recieved from our breeder which we have followed.

From my experience, other things are yes to definately choose a reputable breeder who will answer your many, many questions and be happy to be in contact with you in the future. A reputable breeder will want to stay in contact. I email Jangels breeder photos of him every few months and she is so happy to receive them. She helped me source a breeder for our new lab puppy also born 3 weeks ago. (She wasn't having another litter until the end of the year and I couldn't wait that long !!) I even made contact with Jangel's sire's breeder when reseaching for our new puppy. She was so helpful. Reputable breeders generally know who are puppy farmers v who have good quality puppy pets who are raised with love. The first 8 weeks of a puppy life is so important. Jangels has a tempermant/personality to die for !! I hear from our new puppies breeder (600 kms from us ) twice a week & with photos of our new baby!!

I am happy to help you via PM if you want. I could probably get my past & present breeder to offer their opinion on your prespective choice of breeder/puppy if that would help you. The Labrador breeding world isn't that big. I understand how hard it is for us, the average 'joe blow pet owner' , to select a puppy who is healthy & happy. Lab puppies are generally all around the same price so you might as well get the best puppy you can for your money. Hope I have helped.