Kavik Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I'm pretty sure the Sporting Register is only available to herding breeds which are registered by an external registry that is recognised as such by the ANKC (WKC, Koolie club I think, one for BCs and one other one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Maremma Sheepdog are not recognised by the AKC. Being recognised by one registry over another or working towards being accepted and recognised by one registry over another doesnt mean they arent recognised as a breed as this clearly demonstrates. Maremmas have been a recognised breed in their own country for thousands of years. Whether or not one particular registry recognises them doesnt just rub out the fact that they are a breed and recognised as such by all but a particular registry. I guess it all depends on who is recognising them. People all over Australia can look at a mini foxie and recognise it as a mini foxie. At that point of recognition whether the ANKC do or not isnt going to mean much to anyone other than ANKC members who cant get their head around the fact that the ANKC isnt now nor has it ever been the only purebred stud registry. If you want to breed registered mini foxies you buy one with Mini Foxie breed registry papers and when you make your babies you register them on the mini foxie registry and give your puppy buyers registration papers. If you want to show your mini foxie you take it to a Mini Foxie sanctioned show. So its not recognised by the ANKC - so what? Fact is that the way the ANKC has their system for even getting to a spot where anyone could try for their breed to be recognised by them they have to work and be castigated at every turn by people who own already recognised breeds for a couple of decades. What difference does it make if somewhere when they are working toward a specific goal they add in a different breed or type as long as their end goal is consistency and predictibility? Who cares if they used a chi or a pap in there somewhere? I dont want to know the recipe they used and if I did how would I find this recipe for those breeds already recognised by the ANKC. How is this any different to how any breed developed over the last couple of thousand years? Before anyone starts jumping up and down and accusing me of being anti ANKC - Im not. Im just saying that there is more than one registry and if people are doing the right thing by the dogs and working toward predictibility and consistency so their puppy buyers can know what to expect from the breed when they take it into their homes - whether or not it is now or if the people involved ever want to be able to be recognised by one registry isnt all there is to it. Yes but then if I live in one of the smaller states that does not have alternate dog sports groups and I decide I would love to do obedience trials with my mini Foxie brood bitch, well they are only offered by ANKC, so that means to be eligable to compete in those trials I must desex my mini Foxie in order to register it as an associate. (Hence why we now have a sporting register for some breeds - entire working BC's and Kelpies can compete). There is no registery in Australia that is close to what the ANKC offers in terms of variety of sports, not just everyone does conformation shows and agility(which is also offered by multiple external registres). Yes thats right but that is a decision that you as an owner make if agility with that dog is more important to you than breeding - its a system issue its not that the breed doesnt exist.The ANKC dont run shows or obedience trials or agility trials the various clubs do most of which dont have a regsitry at all and they apply to be ANKC sanctioned. Any one anywhere can run an obedience trial and allow any dog they want to compete. This is all about the way we have come to see things and its blinded us to the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 The dog must be recognised by the Registry the ANKC considers to be the registry in the country of origin. But it's not recognised by the AKC so what is to stop her standardising the breed here? It's certainly happened before - BC and JRT come to mind. 2 breeds developed in Australia without the consent of the country of origin. Border collies were well developed in the country of origin before the ANKC decided they should be show dogs. They also have their own registry in the country of origin that was founded in 1906 and recognized by almost every KC around the world but not the ANKC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 The dog must be recognised by the Registry the ANKC considers to be the registry in the country of origin. But it's not recognised by the AKC so what is to stop her standardising the breed here? It's certainly happened before - BC and JRT come to mind. 2 breeds developed in Australia without the consent of the country of origin. Border collies were well developed in the country of origin before the ANKC decided they should be show dogs. They also have their own registry in the country of origin that was founded in 1906 and recognized by almost every KC around the world but not the ANKC ahh rightyo - thanks for that. A bit OT but why werent they shown over there before Aus breeders developed the standard and were the Brits anti having them registered as conformation dogs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 external registres).Yes thats right but that is a decision that you as an owner make if agility with that dog is more important to you than breeding - its a system issue its not that the breed doesnt exist.The ANKC dont run shows or obedience trials or agility trials the various clubs do most of which dont have a regsitry at all and they apply to be ANKC sanctioned. Any one anywhere can run an obedience trialand allow any dog they want to compete. This is all about the way we have come to see things and its blinded us to the options. Under what rules? - only the ANKC has published rules To achieve what qualification? - only the ANKC awards titles in obedience. If you are interested in achieving titles to national standard under a published set of rules, and under trained and accredited judges then right now only the ANKC offers that. Its all well and good to say there can be other options but it would be a huge effort to introduce a system that matched what the ANKC has to offer. Individual affiliates may run the trials but they are run and judged to an agreed and nationally consistent standard. The qualification I get in WA can count towards a dog's title in Qld. Most obedience trials here struggle to break even on a costs basis - there isn't even a financial incentive to create another scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 The dog must be recognised by the Registry the ANKC considers to be the registry in the country of origin. But it's not recognised by the AKC so what is to stop her standardising the breed here? It's certainly happened before - BC and JRT come to mind. 2 breeds developed in Australia without the consent of the country of origin. Border collies were well developed in the country of origin before the ANKC decided they should be show dogs. They also have their own registry in the country of origin that was founded in 1906 and recognized by almost every KC around the world but not the ANKC ahh rightyo - thanks for that. A bit OT but why werent they shown over there before Aus breeders developed the standard and were the Brits anti having them registered as conformation dogs? Because they are primarily a working dog and the cosmetic points of comformation have absolutely no effect on their ability to work. As a point of history NZ had the first BC standard not Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 As a point of history NZ had the first BC standard not Australia. Well there you go - you learn something new every day. Thanks janba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 external registres).Yes thats right but that is a decision that you as an owner make if agility with that dog is more important to you than breeding - its a system issue its not that the breed doesnt exist.The ANKC dont run shows or obedience trials or agility trials the various clubs do most of which dont have a regsitry at all and they apply to be ANKC sanctioned. Any one anywhere can run an obedience trialand allow any dog they want to compete. This is all about the way we have come to see things and its blinded us to the options. Under what rules? - only the ANKC has published rules To achieve what qualification? - only the ANKC awards titles in obedience. If you are interested in achieving titles to national standard under a published set of rules, and under trained and accredited judges then right now only the ANKC offers that. Its all well and good to say there can be other options but it would be a huge effort to introduce a system that matched what the ANKC has to offer. Individual affiliates may run the trials but they are run and judged to an agreed and nationally consistent standard. The qualification I get in WA can count towards a dog's title in Qld. Most obedience trials here struggle to break even on a costs basis - there isn't even a financial incentive to create another scheme. Thanks PF thats what I was getting at Steve I did not mention agility, if I want to compete in Agility I can go to ADAA, however what if I though my Mini Foxie was the best at Obedience in the whole country, how else could I possibly test that theory in Australia? Also ANKC has the trained judges and they can be threatened with loss of thier licence of they come and judge my mini foxie obedience trial, so none come. What now? I am sort of backed in a corner and like you said now have to make up my mind if breeding or obedience is more important. What a dilemma! Not one I would have with an ANKC recognised breed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Janba: As a point of history NZ had the first BC standard not Australia. Bloody Kiwis.. next thing you know they'll be claiming they invented the pavlova. Edited March 30, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Bloody Kiwis.. next thing you know they'll be claiming they invented the pavlova. and claiming Phar Lap as their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paptacular! Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Bloody Kiwis.. next thing you know they'll be claiming they invented the pavlova. and claiming Phar Lap as their own. And making us take the blame for Russell Crowe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Bloody Kiwis.. next thing you know they'll be claiming they invented the pavlova. ;) and claiming Phar Lap as their own. And making us take the blame for Russell Crowe! :p Now he should go in the vermin thread. Resume normal broadcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 external registres).Yes thats right but that is a decision that you as an owner make if agility with that dog is more important to you than breeding - its a system issue its not that the breed doesnt exist.The ANKC dont run shows or obedience trials or agility trials the various clubs do most of which dont have a regsitry at all and they apply to be ANKC sanctioned. Any one anywhere can run an obedience trialand allow any dog they want to compete. This is all about the way we have come to see things and its blinded us to the options. Under what rules? - only the ANKC has published rules To achieve what qualification? - only the ANKC awards titles in obedience. If you are interested in achieving titles to national standard under a published set of rules, and under trained and accredited judges then right now only the ANKC offers that. Its all well and good to say there can be other options but it would be a huge effort to introduce a system that matched what the ANKC has to offer. Individual affiliates may run the trials but they are run and judged to an agreed and nationally consistent standard. The qualification I get in WA can count towards a dog's title in Qld. Most obedience trials here struggle to break even on a costs basis - there isn't even a financial incentive to create another scheme. Under any rules they want and anyone can award a title in obedience - to achieve any qualification they want to call it. Right now it may be only the ANKC doing it that way on a National level but that doesnt mean someone else cant if they want to whether it would be a huge effort or not. Mini foxie people may only want to be judged against other mini foxies to enable them to choose breeding dogs based on their obedience success - not everyone wants to have a national title competeing against other breeds and other types of dogs or maybe they would want a national Foxie title - who knows - but its not something that the ANKC have to have a monopoly on and any club at any time could walk away and become affiliated with any other as well as or instead of the ANKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 external registres).Yes thats right but that is a decision that you as an owner make if agility with that dog is more important to you than breeding - its a system issue its not that the breed doesnt exist.The ANKC dont run shows or obedience trials or agility trials the various clubs do most of which dont have a regsitry at all and they apply to be ANKC sanctioned. Any one anywhere can run an obedience trialand allow any dog they want to compete. This is all about the way we have come to see things and its blinded us to the options. Under what rules? - only the ANKC has published rules To achieve what qualification? - only the ANKC awards titles in obedience. If you are interested in achieving titles to national standard under a published set of rules, and under trained and accredited judges then right now only the ANKC offers that. Its all well and good to say there can be other options but it would be a huge effort to introduce a system that matched what the ANKC has to offer. Individual affiliates may run the trials but they are run and judged to an agreed and nationally consistent standard. The qualification I get in WA can count towards a dog's title in Qld. Most obedience trials here struggle to break even on a costs basis - there isn't even a financial incentive to create another scheme. Thanks PF thats what I was getting at Steve I did not mention agility, if I want to compete in Agility I can go to ADAA, however what if I though my Mini Foxie was the best at Obedience in the whole country, how else could I possibly test that theory in Australia? Also ANKC has the trained judges and they can be threatened with loss of thier licence of they come and judge my mini foxie obedience trial, so none come. What now? I am sort of backed in a corner and like you said now have to make up my mind if breeding or obedience is more important. What a dilemma! Not one I would have with an ANKC recognised breed. Yes for you it is a dilemma - I hear you and understand you - and I agree its not one you would have with an ANKC recognised breed but that still doesnt say the breed doesnt exist as a breed. if competeing at national level in ANKC events with entire dogs was a primary concern for Mini foxie people then they have the option of going after ANKC breed recognition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) external registres).Yes thats right but that is a decision that you as an owner make if agility with that dog is more important to you than breeding - its a system issue its not that the breed doesnt exist.The ANKC dont run shows or obedience trials or agility trials the various clubs do most of which dont have a regsitry at all and they apply to be ANKC sanctioned. Any one anywhere can run an obedience trialand allow any dog they want to compete. This is all about the way we have come to see things and its blinded us to the options. Under what rules? - only the ANKC has published rules To achieve what qualification? - only the ANKC awards titles in obedience. If you are interested in achieving titles to national standard under a published set of rules, and under trained and accredited judges then right now only the ANKC offers that. Its all well and good to say there can be other options but it would be a huge effort to introduce a system that matched what the ANKC has to offer. Individual affiliates may run the trials but they are run and judged to an agreed and nationally consistent standard. The qualification I get in WA can count towards a dog's title in Qld. Most obedience trials here struggle to break even on a costs basis - there isn't even a financial incentive to create another scheme. Thanks PF thats what I was getting at Steve I did not mention agility, if I want to compete in Agility I can go to ADAA, however what if I though my Mini Foxie was the best at Obedience in the whole country, how else could I possibly test that theory in Australia? Also ANKC has the trained judges and they can be threatened with loss of thier licence of they come and judge my mini foxie obedience trial, so none come. What now? I am sort of backed in a corner and like you said now have to make up my mind if breeding or obedience is more important. What a dilemma! Not one I would have with an ANKC recognised breed. Well that is when most dog people get really ticked off and start their own club. Problem with OB is that is not a growing sport, numbers are falling all over the world. Other activites however are growing, like Flyball, Agility, Dock Diveing, Herding and the list goes on. Almost all of these (internationally) have many other orgnaization holding trials other then the ANKC associated kennel club. Often this other organzaions have large following than in the kennel club. BTW UKC is one of the largest providers of OB trials in the US, and they are very well thought of. Here is the current list for Sporting, please note that UKC registered dogs are accepted on to ANKC sporting and do not need to be desexed. The bolded listing are all breed kennel clubs. ANKC SPORTING REGISTER (Listing of ANKC Recognised Working Dog Associations/Kindred Bodies) The Working Kelpie Council of Australia Inc. Breed Society for The Australian Working Kelpie Australian Working Border Collie SEQ Paddock Workers Association Queensland Working Sheep Dog Association Qld Cattle Dog Trial Association Australian Sheepdog Workers' Association New South Wales Yard Dog Association Inc. The West Australian Working Sheep Dog Association South Australian Working Sheepdog Association Incorporated Koolie Club of Australia The North American Sheep Dog Society (NASDS) Raad van Beheer op Kynologisch Gebield in Nederland The Kennel Club The International Sheep Dog Society (ISDS) The United Kennel Club (UKC) World Wide Kennel Club United States Border Collie Handlers Association This is not a dog registry at all, they have never registered any dog. This is a group that holds sheepdog trails. Opps maybe they need to take this one off. Australian Shepherd Club of America, Inc American Herding Breeds Association American Kennel Club New Zealand Sheep Dog Trial Association (Inc) Canadian Kennel Club NSW Sheepdog Workers Inc Tasmanian Working Sheepdog Association Inc Working Koolie Association Australia Edited March 30, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes for you it is a dilemma - I hear you and understand you - and I agree its not one you would have with an ANKC recognised breed but that still doesnt say the breed doesnt exist as a breed. if competeing at national level in ANKC events with entire dogs was a primary concern for Mini foxie people then they have the option of going after ANKC breed recognition. Steve or anyone who knows. Is this the same breed as the Mini Fox in Au? http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/ToyFoxTerrier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Yes for you it is a dilemma - I hear you and understand you - and I agree its not one you would have with an ANKC recognised breed but that still doesnt say the breed doesnt exist as a breed. if competeing at national level in ANKC events with entire dogs was a primary concern for Mini foxie people then they have the option of going after ANKC breed recognition. Steve or anyone who knows. Is this the same breed as the Mini Fox in Au? http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/ToyFoxTerrier Looks like it to me. One of the office bearers of the mini foxie club will be able to answer better than me and Im sure she will see this any minute . There is also a story about their name - something to do with the name they wanted being blocked by someone within the ANKC so it explians why they are called mini foxie in Australia but Im not sure of the details. there is also some big deal between the Tenterfield terriers and these guys too. Something about Don Burke and the shape of the foot but again Im not posh on th details and Im sure to get it wrong. No doubt MFCA will educate us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Here is the current list for Sporting, please note that UKC registered dogs are accepted on to ANKC sporting and do not need to be desexed...New Zealand Sheep Dog Trial Association (Inc) That's very interesting, I didn't know that. Particularly interesting as the NZSDTA has no interest whatsoever in conformation and runs a completely open studbook, to be entered dogs are merely required to have won a working trials event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Here is the current list for Sporting, please note that UKC registered dogs are accepted on to ANKC sporting and do not need to be desexed...New Zealand Sheep Dog Trial Association (Inc) That's very interesting, I didn't know that. Particularly interesting as the NZSDTA has no interest whatsoever in conformation and runs a completely open studbook, to be entered dogs are merely required to have won a working trials event. Dogs registered on the ANKC Sporting Register aren't shown. The SR allows them compete in performance events entire, rather than as desexed Associates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Here is the current list for Sporting, please note that UKC registered dogs are accepted on to ANKC sporting and do not need to be desexed...New Zealand Sheep Dog Trial Association (Inc) That's very interesting, I didn't know that. Particularly interesting as the NZSDTA has no interest whatsoever in conformation and runs a completely open studbook, to be entered dogs are merely required to have won a working trials event. Dogs registered on the ANKC Sporting Register aren't shown. The SR allows them compete in performance events entire, rather than as desexed Associates. Yup, I know. I just think it's interesting that I'd be allowed to compete with my dog entire on the basis that they'd won a NZSDTA event, when most owners of unregistered dogs apparently need to desex before competing in ANKC performance events. It's a bit different here, you don't ever need to desex a non-pedigree dog to be on the associate register. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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