Klee Kai In Aus

[raz]

We'd recognise the breed because the Registry in its country of origin (Germany?) does.

Yeah so what about the Border Collie and the JRT? They werent recognised in the country of origin before the rest of the world took up the Australian Standard.

Border collie standard is different in different countries.

In FCI they us the UK. (though I did hear tell that Australian tried to get them to change the country of origin of the border collie to Australia (have no idea if that is true).

NZ had their own but close to the UK.

US AKC has their own but also much like UK.

Actaully the OZ standard stands out as very different to all the rest in many ways and the least used standard for border collie in the world.

Also remember that by far, and we are talking 100, 000's of thosands of dogs, by far and away most border collie are not registered in the show registries. They are in the working regisitries in their country or ISDS which is the founding registiry long before ANKC (1906 for ISDS mid 1950's for ANKC). Even some of the European kennel clubs and Canada have the main registry as working and a much smaller appendix withint the working registry for show dogs. So if we want to be true to the country of origin then we would be using the UK standard for show bred dogs and ISDS or it's offshoots for working bred dogs (and they have no physical standard).

When the truth is stranger then fantasy LOL

Absolutely no truth to this whatsover. Just thought I'd point that out

Yes I havent heard that either.

[Steve]

Ah don't mind me, I must have mis understood something I'd read/

I thought the Klee Kai had to be AKC recognised to be recognised here

(where's the hit over head emoticon when I need it )

It is recognized here already, in the UKC registry.

ANKC is not the only registry in the world.

Dogs are not only recognized in ANKC.

Now I suppose we have to talk about what does it mean to be "recognised".

You won't be showing or getting ANKC papers for a Klee Kai in this country until the ANKC recognises the breed. For a dog of US origin, that means that the Registry the ANKC recognises as the American purebred register (the AKC) does.

Same deal for Silken Windhounds. They are recognised by some FCI countries but until the AKC does, they won't be shown here.

They can be shown here - just not at ANKC shows. Lots of breeds which are not recognised by the ANKC hold their own shows without a problem - If they want to hold shows. Some breeds dont want a bar to do with the show scene.

[poodlefan]

Lots of breeds which are not recognised by the ANKC hold their own shows without a problem - If they want to hold shows. Some breeds dont want a bar to do with the show scene.

Really? How do you find out about them.

[Staranais]

For those people asking about health testing, she actually talks about it on her website.

Are there any health issues in the breed?

Overall the AKK breed appears to have excellent health. The main issues that the breed faces are autoimmune thyroiditis, factor VII deficiency, cryptorchids, heart murmurs, and luxating patellars. Southern Cross Klee Kai test their dogs for these conditions and will not breed a dog with any of these conditions.

and

Do you guarantee the health of your puppies?

Yes, all puppies go to their new homes with a guarantee from congenital and hereditary health issues for 6 months. Should any of these issues arise within 6 months of you purchasing your puppy and are confirmed by both our veterinarians, Southern Cross Klee Kai will take your puppy back and offer you a full refund or the option of another puppy.

I wouldn't call the tests complete, or the conditions on the guarantee ideal, and of course we have no idea if she'll even do the tests or honour the guarantee - but isn't that true of many ANKC breeders too?

[Staranais]

And also from her website:

Before filling out the application please note that all puppies will be placed in their homes with a spay/neuter contract, and you will be required to send us veterinary proof that the puppy has been de-sexed by 6 months of age. Puppies will cost approximately $4000. Please only complete an application form if you are happy with these conditions.

[Steve]

Lots of breeds which are not recognised by the ANKC hold their own shows without a problem - If they want to hold shows. Some breeds dont want a bar to do with the show scene.

Really? How do you find out about them.

I guess the same way you find out about any show - if you are a member you are informed when a show is on and if you are interested in a breed you research where the shows might be

Here's two

http://www.minifoxie.org/index.php?option=...6&Itemid=16

http://american-bulldog-champions-league.w.../showevents.htm

Edited March 30, 2011 by Steve

[Bilbo Baggins]

Absolutely no truth to this whatsover. Just thought I'd point that out

that is good to know as that rumor it was going around a few years ago.

If the Border Collie was an Australian breed, wouldn't it sit on the verandah, telling the farmer it couldn't be buggered to herd today because it was too hot and asking for a cold one while it watched the cricket?

:happydance: :cheers:

[Bilbo Baggins]

White Shepherds.

http://www.whiteshepherdsaustralia.com/

[pixie_meg]

Who's to say she isn't saving up to bring more klee kai over or waiting for a good bitch in a litter and keeping her and importing sperm.

I'd personally love to own a couple of breeds that aren't recognised here. They're recognised by the FCI not the AKC.

[ozjen]

It was my understanding that they stopped trying to develop this as a breed because of temperment issues. I followed these dogs on the internet for a while but they suddenly dropped of the radar and this was the only info left that I could get on them. At the time looking at the pictures of those on the internet there was no consistancy of type and you could easily pick out the other breeds used to get the small size. The original dog was a very small Siber if I remember correctly and because the owners got so many comments and interest from others on the little dog with the lovely Sibe markings they decided to aim for the same. Probabaly knew nothing about genetics and that the original dog was probabaly the runt but would probabaly still throw larger pups so added things like Chihuahua's and Papillons to the mix amounst other breeds. Just another designer breed with a catchy name Alaskan Klee Kai to make a quick buck out of a mongrel.

[shortstep]

It was my understanding that they stopped trying to develop this as a breed because of temperment issues. I followed these dogs on the internet for a while but they suddenly dropped of the radar and this was the only info left that I could get on them. At the time looking at the pictures of those on the internet there was no consistancy of type and you could easily pick out the other breeds used to get the small size. The original dog was a very small Siber if I remember correctly and because the owners got so many comments and interest from others on the little dog with the lovely Sibe markings they decided to aim for the same. Probabaly knew nothing about genetics and that the original dog was probabaly the runt but would probabaly still throw larger pups so added things like Chihuahua's and Papillons to the mix amounst other breeds. Just another designer breed with a catchy name Alaskan Klee Kai to make a quick buck out of a mongrel.

Can you please give the documention of all these very serious accusation you have made in the above post.

Are you saying that UKC is no longer registering the breed?

Where is the documentation that breeds temperament is cause to stop breeding it, who gave this directive to abandone the breeding of this breed, was it the UKC or the parent club?

Can you show any proof of lack of understanding of genetics on the part of the folks who have worked on developing this breed?

Can you present proof that Paps of Chis were used, perhaps you have DNA testing that shows these breeds are in the lines?

Pretty easy to prove your very seriouse and damaging accusation, but then again it is also pretty easy to just run off at the mouth and have no proof of anything.

Edited March 30, 2011 by shortstep

[Sayreovi]

Just because you seem to really hate this breed, that is not a good reason to think she is wrong to attempt to get the breed going in Australia.

Sometimes I really wonder how people think breeds get introduced and developed on to an isolated island like OZ.

Actually I couldn't give a flying rats arse about this "breed" of dog.

Like alot of other posters there is a breed overseas that I would love to own one day, but it is a developing breed and as such isn't recognised. I wouldn't import at the moment based on that alone, it wouldn't sit right breeding unregistered dogs

If/When I happen to import this breed I will gurantee you I will not be charging $4000 a puppy just because I will be the only breeder in Australia.

I wonder, what are peoples opinions on people breeding Labradoodles? They appear to breed more true to type than these dogs and apparantly have a better temperament, have limited health testing done and are also sold for a hefty sum for an unregistered "breed".

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Just because you seem to really hate this breed, that is not a good reason to think she is wrong to attempt to get the breed going in Australia.

Sometimes I really wonder how people think breeds get introduced and developed on to an isolated island like OZ.

Actually I couldn't give a flying rats arse about this "breed" of dog.

Like alot of other posters there is a breed overseas that I would love to own one day, but it is a developing breed and as such isn't recognised. I wouldn't import at the moment based on that alone, it wouldn't sit right breeding unregistered dogs

If/When I happen to import this breed I will gurantee you I will not be charging $4000 a puppy just because I will be the only breeder in Australia.

I wonder, what are peoples opinions on people breeding Labradoodles? They appear to breed more true to type than these dogs and apparantly have a better temperament, have limited health testing done and are also sold for a hefty sum for an unregistered "breed".

I think some of the dogs you mentioned are registered with another registry. Not all registered dogs are registered with the ANKC.

I do not believe the ANKC is the last word on registered dogs as there are many registry's out there.

Also, I think developing breeds can be part of some registry's as that is used as they develop the breed, the breeders need to know the pedigree of the dogs and to prove their lineage before the breed will be recognised.

[Sayreovi]

I think some of the dogs you mentioned are registered with another registry. Not all registered dogs are registered with the ANKC.

I do not believe the ANKC is the last word on registered dogs as there are many registry's out there.

Also, I think developing breeds can be part of some registry's as that is used as they develop the breed, the breeders need to know the pedigree of the dogs and to prove their lineage before the breed will be recognised.

Sorry, which dogs did I mention apart from Labradoodles?

I know there are other registers out there, similar to Koolies in Australia they are a breed and have their own register but I personally couldn't breed them if I wanted too......guess it's lucky I like ANKC recognised breeds huh!

The breeders if the breed I like, aren't interested in recognition as yet.......the reason was sent to me in an email but I can't remember why at the moment

[shortstep]

If/When I happen to import this breed I will gurantee you I will not be charging $4000 a puppy just because I will be the only breeder in Australia.

I wonder, what are peoples opinions on people breeding Labradoodles? They appear to breed more true to type than these dogs and apparantly have a better temperament, have limited health testing done and are also sold for a hefty sum for an unregistered "breed".

What is my opinion on the current market value of different types of dogs, including dogs not registered in ANKC?

I see is value placed on ideas and concepts about dogs that do not always conform to all of the ANKC ideals.

Value is being placed on 'other' registries.

Value is being placed on breeds or dogs not bred for the purpose of show ring.

Value is being placed on cross breeds.

I also do not see market value as just $$, though clearly people seem to be ready to spend their $ to get what they value. For example someone may value owning a rescue dog more than an ANKC dogs because of social values they place on their action and these days some of the RSPCA dog bidders may spend more for the rescue dog than they would for an ANKC dog.

I also see the rise in price of dogs as something that is bound to happen. With all the laws, liablity, diffculties, animal rights pressures, health issues, science/Uni economies based on dog research and so on, the price of dogs is only going to go up and up.

So it is possible that the price of Labradoodle is not really high, it is just the cost of many ANKC dogs is low? Not sure about that at all but an interesting subject.

I also see a dog world even more fragmented and divided, acting more confused, frightened and angry every day. I really worry far more about that than price of a labradoodle.

Edited March 30, 2011 by shortstep

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I think some of the dogs you mentioned are registered with another registry. Not all registered dogs are registered with the ANKC.

I do not believe the ANKC is the last word on registered dogs as there are many registry's out there.

Also, I think developing breeds can be part of some registry's as that is used as they develop the breed, the breeders need to know the pedigree of the dogs and to prove their lineage before the breed will be recognised.

Sorry, which dogs did I mention apart from Labradoodles?

I know there are other registers out there, similar to Koolies in Australia they are a breed and have their own register but I personally couldn't breed them if I wanted too......guess it's lucky I like ANKC recognised breeds huh!

The breeders if the breed I like, aren't interested in recognition as yet.......the reason was sent to me in an email but I can't remember why at the moment

Labradoodles have a registry as well

[Steve]

Maremma Sheepdog are not recognised by the AKC.

Being recognised by one registry over another or working towards being accepted and recognised by one registry over another doesnt mean they arent recognised as a breed as this clearly demonstrates. Maremmas have been a recognised breed in their own country for thousands of years. Whether or not one particular registry recognises them doesnt just rub out the fact that they are a breed and recognised as such by all but a particular registry.

I guess it all depends on who is recognising them. People all over Australia can look at a mini foxie and recognise it as a mini foxie. At that point of recognition whether the ANKC do or not isnt going to mean much to anyone other than ANKC members who cant get their head around the fact that the ANKC isnt now nor has it ever been the only purebred stud registry.

If you want to breed registered mini foxies you buy one with Mini Foxie breed registry papers and when you make your babies you register them on the mini foxie registry and give your puppy buyers registration papers. If you want to show your mini foxie you take it to a Mini Foxie sanctioned show. So its not recognised by the ANKC - so what?

Fact is that the way the ANKC has their system for even getting to a spot where anyone could try for their breed to be recognised by them they have to work and be castigated at every turn by people who own already recognised breeds for a couple of decades.

What difference does it make if somewhere when they are working toward a specific goal they add in a different breed or type as long as their end goal is consistency and predictibility? Who cares if they used a chi or a pap in there somewhere? I dont want to know the recipe they used and if I did how would I find this recipe for those breeds already recognised by the ANKC. How is this any different to how any breed developed over the last couple of thousand years?

Before anyone starts jumping up and down and accusing me of being anti ANKC - Im not. Im just saying that there is more than one registry and if people are doing the right thing by the dogs and working toward predictibility and consistency so their puppy buyers can know what to expect from the breed when they take it into their homes - whether or not it is now or if the people involved ever want to be able to be recognised by one registry isnt all there is to it.

[RallyValley]

Maremma Sheepdog are not recognised by the AKC.

Being recognised by one registry over another or working towards being accepted and recognised by one registry over another doesnt mean they arent recognised as a breed as this clearly demonstrates. Maremmas have been a recognised breed in their own country for thousands of years. Whether or not one particular registry recognises them doesnt just rub out the fact that they are a breed and recognised as such by all but a particular registry.

I guess it all depends on who is recognising them. People all over Australia can look at a mini foxie and recognise it as a mini foxie. At that point of recognition whether the ANKC do or not isnt going to mean much to anyone other than ANKC members who cant get their head around the fact that the ANKC isnt now nor has it ever been the only purebred stud registry.

If you want to breed registered mini foxies you buy one with Mini Foxie breed registry papers and when you make your babies you register them on the mini foxie registry and give your puppy buyers registration papers. If you want to show your mini foxie you take it to a Mini Foxie sanctioned show. So its not recognised by the ANKC - so what?

Fact is that the way the ANKC has their system for even getting to a spot where anyone could try for their breed to be recognised by them they have to work and be castigated at every turn by people who own already recognised breeds for a couple of decades.

What difference does it make if somewhere when they are working toward a specific goal they add in a different breed or type as long as their end goal is consistency and predictibility? Who cares if they used a chi or a pap in there somewhere? I dont want to know the recipe they used and if I did how would I find this recipe for those breeds already recognised by the ANKC. How is this any different to how any breed developed over the last couple of thousand years?

Before anyone starts jumping up and down and accusing me of being anti ANKC - Im not. Im just saying that there is more than one registry and if people are doing the right thing by the dogs and working toward predictibility and consistency so their puppy buyers can know what to expect from the breed when they take it into their homes - whether or not it is now or if the people involved ever want to be able to be recognised by one registry isnt all there is to it.

Yes but then if I live in one of the smaller states that does not have alternate dog sports groups and I decide I would love to do obedience trials with my mini Foxie brood bitch, well they are only offered by ANKC, so that means to be eligable to compete in those trials I must desex my mini Foxie in order to register it as an associate. (Hence why we now have a sporting register for some breeds - entire working BC's and Kelpies can compete). There is no registery in Australia that is close to what the ANKC offers in terms of variety of sports, not just everyone does conformation shows and agility(which is also offered by multiple external registres).

[~*Shell*~]

Having spoken to a couple of people overseas who own klee kais I'm totally not interested - both of them said that they had to go through a lot of different kennels to find a breeder who didn't have dogs with temprement issues in their lines. Just hearing that would turn me off them. In truth, I mostly just don't like the look of them. The sibe markings without the structure to go along with it is just strange to me.

[shortstep]

Yes but then if I live in one of the smaller states that does not have alternate dog sports groups and I decide I would love to do obedience trials with my mini Foxie brood bitch, well they are only offered by ANKC, so that means to be eligable to compete in those trials I must desex my mini Foxie in order to register it as an associate. (Hence why we now have a sporting register for some breeds - entire working BC's and Kelpies can compete). There is no registery in Australia that is close to what the ANKC offers in terms of variety of sports, not just everyone does conformation shows and agility(which is also offered by multiple external registres).

Mini foxies as a breed could apply for sporting if they desired to do so, provided they are working dogs, are they a hunting breed?

QLD I believe has more people doing agility in ADAA than in ANKC. I have been told this was driven by ANKC refusal to allow mixed breed dogs at agility trials in QLD. Eventually they changed the rule, but now limit people to only the mix breed they own now and never having another mixed breed dog. LOL So give it a dog generation of time and everyone will swing right back to ADAA. People often have a very deep need to not be told what to do, or in this case what kind of dog to own.

Clubs are what we make them, eh? Exclusivity is not always the best way to build a club, membership or to sell purebred dogs. In the past it may have been a selling point to be exclusive, back when belonging to the country club was also important. These days that concept of superiority and segregation does not go over as well as it used to, be it applied to dogs or people. Just my opinion.

Edited March 30, 2011 by shortstep