Westie Excessive Barking

[julzie]

Hi all;

I am new here and have two Westies, so please bear with me if i overload you with info.

My westies are female (Cassie) and male (Brock) and 15 and 14 months respectively. Neither is desexed as we hope to breed.

OK, as a result of a few replies i do feel i need to clarify a few things here. We have not entered into the possibility of breeding lightly. My husbands mother had two westies which she successfully breed so we had some prior knowledge of the breed. We did a lot of research before we bought our dogs and they are both from very reputable breeders with strong ancestry. They are both registered and i intend to become a registered breeder if and once i feel the dogs are both ready (It's still another year almost until my girl is old enough to have a litter). They are both fully vaccinated and regularly health checked by my vet.

I have had Cassie since she was 2 months of age and got Brock a month later. They are both thoroughly spoilt which i am starting to regret.

They are the best of friends and hate to be separated (in fact it's impossible to separate them without a bark and howl fest) and get along incredibly well.

Brock has clearly become the dominant of the pair and is very defensive of his girlfriend. Cassie has definitely become a shy girl. She gives up on playing with you the minute Brock starts to join in, she just sits and watches. I'm not very happy that Cassie has become so passive and shy.

What bothers me most though is that Brock is a real barker.

They both bark whenever they hear or see something outside (they are indoor/outdoor dogs) and the fact that i have neighbours across the road with very yappy dogs that sit at the side fence and often escape and visit my front garden doesn't help, as my dogs go barking mad every time they hear/see them.

The main problem is Brock though. He has a particular problem with other dogs (or animals). When we are walking him on the lead, he pulls on the lead (more than usual), barks like mad and becomes very agressive and will attack Cassie if she gets close enough to him, and will attempt to bite us if we try to pick him up and intervene. If we take him to a dog park though where he is off the lead, he is quite happy to sniff out the other dogs and rarely barks.

The barking behaviour also occurs with the television! He loves to watch TV with you but if an animal comes on then he will bark like mad and jump at the tv, if's it's a dog then OMG it's like he goes psycho! He also behaves this way with certain tv ads and seems to have identified the tune to certain ads he doesn't like b'coz he will run from another room to the tv when he hears certain tunes and gets very confused when he hears the tune on the radio with no images on the tv to go with it. The vacuum cleaner with no hose on causes the same response.

I'm getting very concerned with this because if we try to intervene he gets so aggressive and has attempted to bite us a couple of times. Cassie also likes to try to intervene and often lands up getting the sore end of his aggression. He recently appears to have scared her to the point that she has spent the day running away from him and wanting to cuddle up to us all the time.

Don't get me wrong, Brock is predominantly a darling beautiful boy and they absolutly adore each other most of the time. This behaviour is not common, but seems to be increasing which is why i want to nip it now, before it gets out of hand. Brock can, and sometimes does, behave very well in front of other dogs when he is on the lead and other animals he see's on tv.

Any advice on how to deal with this would be great. We are considering specialised training, but i really do think it might be hard to train them together.

I wish i had trained them earlier. I feel like i have done the wrong thing by spoiling them so much. :D

HELP!!!!

Julzie

Edited March 31, 2011 by julzie

[persephone]

You have spoilt them- yes.

You need to ask on here for recommendations for a professional who will come to your house and work with you and your dogs.

Re: the breeding... as this forum does not advocate breeding without first having done all the research and becoming registered , you may be in for some educating .

best of luck with the training side of things- it cannot be pleasant

[Nekhbet]

Contact either K9Pro.com.au or petresortsaustralia.com.au for a good trainer/behaviourist

Your dogs have bonded with each other and Brock is acting like a typical entire male spoiled terrier. I'm surprised you have not been bitten by him already, although he's not fully matured so I give it a little more time. Cassie is HIS bitch and you're taking a sexually entire dog pack into situations that make him feel like he has to aggress. He will probably also be supressing her personality with his dominant macho behaviour.

unless your dogs are registered and properly health tested you shouldnt be breeding them, particularly if you're already having trouble controlling them as it is. Also westies carry a lot of problems have your dogs parents been thoroughly tested and passed all health tests?

Edited March 29, 2011 by Nekhbet

[ChristineX]

Hi Julzie, firstly welcome to Dogzonline, you can learn an amazing amount here, and get an amazing amount of support at any time of the day or night.

I'm not going to talk about your breeding ambitions, I'll just point out that a lot ofpeople here will have very passionate ideas, and I recommend a look at the health and rescue forums as these will show why.

My recommendations - contact the people Nekhbet has recommended sooner rather than later. Unfortunately, the way you have brought your two little ones up has resulted in Brock becoming an aggresive dog. You are just lucky that you have westies, and not one of the larger breeds. Please understand that this is already dangerous for Brock - he is already unrehomable. He is lucky, you have recognised that there is a problem, he is young and you are looking to fix things.

In the meantime, walk them separately, start practising Nothing in Life is Free, listen to whichever of Nekhbet's people you decide to contact, and implement their recommendations.

And let us know how it goes.

ChristineX

[poodlefan]

1. Seek professional help as advised.

2. Consider that breeding your boy is only going to exacerbate many of the behaviours you are finding problematic.

I think you'd find life a lot easier as an owner if you desexed both dogs, enjoyed them as pets and bought a show dog to start off your breeding program with.

You don't have to own a male to breed. I'd say there's plenty of advantages to not owning a stud dog!

[ChristineX]

Hi again Julzie,

have you had any luck getting in touch with either K9pro or the petresort people? Do they think they can help?

ChristineX

[julzie]

Hi ChristineX

I'm actually feeling awful about my original post now. I made my poor boy out to be a monster, which he definitely isn't. He had just had a moment in front of the tele and i think i was still reeling from the combination of his barking fit combined with my migraine!

Anyway, it seems Cassie may be coming into heat, so time to bring out the nappies soon. I think her little clingy episode the other day was probably related to that, as she gets a bit sooky when she's coming into heat, and goes through this phase where she doesn't like brock. Not long after that she kind of does a flip and gets really dominant and playful, then after that is when you need to watch them like a hawk, even with nappies on! It was also raining which also makes her sulk a bit, as there is not many spots outside, out of the rain. Working on that with a new reno Anyway she played tug of war with both me and brock yesterday and wore me out! She's also been very playful with me this morning so things are good there.

I read a book i was given, author Gwen Bailey, called "Dogs behaving badly" and it gave me a lot of insight into Brocks behaviour. I didn't like calling him aggressive because it's so rare that he gets upset with us, and i now realise that he was probably afraid of being told off. He loves to play with his fellow doggie pals, and has never really had a period of time when he hasn't had the company of another dog that he can play with. But obviously he can't play with the ones on TV! I have spoken with a behaviourist that has encouraged me to put brock on the lead in front of the tv and play games with him, give him treats for being well behaved etc... whilst slowly introducing dogs/animals on the tv. The idea being he needs to learn to ignore them, because mummy is more interesting/fun. Apparently this kind of behaviour is becoming common with dogs of all breeds and ages now, as they find it very difficult with the new tvs to tell that they are not real! Anyway similar principle needs to be applied at the park, so he can learn to ignore the other dogs and focus on his leaders.

I have also read the post here by K9pro about the drive program and thought i would use this to really reinforce with Brock who is the leader (Me!). Can't hurt right?

We are going away with the dogs to visit family and friends over easter and if i haven't noticed a considerable improvement in Brockie by the time we return then i will book a session with a behaviourist for more advice.

So far though he has been very good. No aggression, no barking at other dogs when we have walked him with Cassie (just tugging on the lead) and he is calming down in front of the tele. He's currently lying at my feet, with his head on my foot. his favourite spot!

Thanks for the support

Julzie

[poodlefan]

Julzie - one thing I missed in your first post...

Under no circumstances should you be taking a bitch in season to a public dog park. In addition to the risk to her, its the fastest method I can think of to start a major dog fight.

Indeed, bitches in season are specifically prohibited from dog parks here.

You have a dog that has bitten you several times. Whilst you may not think the problem is serious, I tend to disagree. The sooner these issues are dealt with, the easier they tend to be to resolve.

Edited March 31, 2011 by poodlefan

[persephone]

Nappies will not stop mating. Separation is the only sure way ... or perhaps you may consider getting some chemical desexing, which can then be reversed when/if you want.

[julzie]

Julzie - one thing I missed in your first post...

Under no circumstances should you be taking a bitch in season to a public dog park. In addition to the risk to her, its the fastest method I can think of to start a major dog fight.

Indeed, bitches in season are specifically prohibited from dog parks here.

You have a dog that has bitten you several times. Whilst you may not think the problem is serious, I tend to disagree. The sooner these issues are dealt with, the easier they tend to be to resolve.

Only done this once when she had her first heat and i hadn't noticed she was coming on. Never do it again!

[julzie]

Nappies will not stop mating. Separation is the only sure way ... or perhaps you may consider getting some chemical desexing, which can then be reversed when/if you want.

Hi;

Vet only just told me recently about the chemical option and it's something we are considering as they are difficult to separate for long periods.

[poodlefan]

Nappies will not stop mating. Separation is the only sure way ... or perhaps you may consider getting some chemical desexing, which can then be reversed when/if you want.

Hi;

Vet only just told me recently about the chemical option and it's something we are considering as they are difficult to separate for long periods.

You might like to consider how you will deal with separting them if she has pups. You won't be able to keep them together then.

[julzie]

Julzie - one thing I missed in your first post...

Under no circumstances should you be taking a bitch in season to a public dog park. In addition to the risk to her, its the fastest method I can think of to start a major dog fight.

Indeed, bitches in season are specifically prohibited from dog parks here.

You have a dog that has bitten you several times. Whilst you may not think the problem is serious, I tend to disagree. The sooner these issues are dealt with, the easier they tend to be to resolve.

Only done this once when she had her first heat and i hadn't noticed she was coming on. Never do it again!

I'm not saying it's not serious, thats why i'm looking for help. He has only bitten me once when he was going for the vacuum head and my hand got in between them. He appears to have been attempting to bite us a few times, but never actually suceeded, which it was i was told indicates it's fear more than aggression. Apparently if he really wanted to bite me he would have.

[Staranais]

I'm not saying it's not serious, thats why i'm looking for help. He has only bitten me once when he was going for the vacuum head and my hand got in between them. He appears to have been attempting to bite us a few times, but never actually suceeded, which it was i was told indicates it's fear more than aggression. Apparently if he really wanted to bite me he would have.

A warning snap isn't necessarily fear - it can also be that the dog is trying to control you, or trying to train you to stay away from his stuff or not do certain things. It's exactly what he'd do with another dog that was being pesky - first give it a fair warning by a snarl or snap, then bite it properly if it persisted in the annoying behaviour.

I'm glad you're getting the situation sorted out. If you can't do it by yourself though, I would second the advice to seek professional help. You might forgive being bitten, but not everyone is so forgiving - to be frank, if he manages to bite someone else he could end up seized & declared dangerous or PTS.

But, glad you seem to be working it out so far by yourselves.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Staranais

[ChristineX]

Hi Julzie,

Brock isn't a monster, but he is aggressive. Here's my take on why. When you seriously spoiled him, he got everything he wanted, where when and how (pretty much, right?). This told him he must the the top dog - otherwise why would you be doing what he said. Top dog status comes with responsibility - he's responsible for telling his pack what to do, when and how. He is also responsible for keeping you all safe, and keeping intruders off the property.

This means, if he feels you have not done what he has decreed, he bites. Its the normal dog response to an underling (you) not doing as instructed. To turn this around, you have to depose him. Easiest way - take him to obedience classes and practice the lessons at home, every day. This also gives him practice in dealing with other dogs while listening to you, and also gives him time with you that he does not have to compete with Cassie for. All positive.

At home, NLIF means - if he wants to go for a walk, leashes only go on calm dogs. If he's jumping around, put the leash away, walk away, and come back in a minute and repeat until he is calm. Same again at the front door/gate - here only dogs that sit get to go thru the door. Also, if you have been picking him up - that never happens again. Also, never on couches, seats or your bed - this guy has a leadership problem and in dog land, the higher up you are, the higher in the pack you are.

Obedience is actually fun - as a dog, you get lots of praise (who doesn't like this) and treats (even better). It can also lead to doing agility (some of the most fun a dog can have) or flyball. And its wonderful for the human ego when your dog sits/stands/drops/heels and others go 'how did you do that! My dog just runs off!!" (personal experience there).

Barking - well, he's responsible for keeping intruders out. Barking is the number one bluff. What ever you do, don't start screaming at him to stop - as far as he is concerned, your barking too and he must be right that it is a dangerous situation and bark louder.

What we do here - my guys bark, I walk outside saying "show me", I take a good long look in the direction of barking and praise them and expect them to come inside. Dogs say, okay, danger over and everyone settles down. I do this at night too, although I switch on house lights first so potential intruders actually have time to leave. These days, I'll get two or three barks, and that's it. Any more than that - I go check things out.

The other thing is, I know if Duke sees people walking down the street, he will bark at them. So the blinds stay closed so he can't see them. If this is one of the reasons for barking - blocking the line of sight should reduce the barking too.

Also, pictures of cute dogs are pretty mandetory - could we see your guys, please??

Okay, I think this must be my longest post yet

Keep us updated with how things are going, please!

ChristineX

[Nekhbet]

ahh yeah no, just because the dog doesnt make contact doesnt mean it's fear. Everyone jumps on the fear bandwagon when a dog gets snappy because it seems to make them feel better about it all.

First step is to understand 'anthropomorphising' and stop doing it with Brock. You still have this idea he's a baby, or maybe just the way you type about him. Excuses for dogs behaviour dont fix them, setting a plan and sticking him to it will. Dogs can be incredibly resilient but without guidence they decide what they want to do on their own terms.

Dont wait for problems to get worst call a professional now. If he does have fear issues he should be out of the gene pool anyway and castrated, weak nerve is not a trait you want to be passing down to your pups. Frankly, unless you're a registered breeder desex them both and just concentrate on learning about dog training and behaviour.