Champion Class- Should We Have A Seperate Class?

[Aziah]

I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.

Earn it!

Beat the best to be the best.

I agree with Megz here. If a dog is good enough, it will beat the titled dogs anyway.

I agree with all the other 'agreers'

[Trisven13]

Lol thats me - there are 4 Fields on Saturday...4 How excitement!

it is exciting isn't it, even if you get beat

I LOVE shows where there are other Fauves. I LOVE having all the people on the side of the ring watching because there are so many of us for once. I LOVE being able to see the other Fauves in Australia, get my hands on them etc.

[Gayle.]

Well it definitely wasn't me. That rings no bells with me at all, as I said the first time I was there I was sitting with a particular group, none of whom are on DOL.

I didn't say you were sitting with someone from DOL, I said someone from DOL introduced me to you.

if someone from DOL introduced you to someone, it wasn't me. Definitely not. I wasn't set up where you say I was, I have no recollection of being introduced to anyone at that show, and the only people I can remember talking to where the people I was sitting with.

[RallyValley]

Lol thats me - there are 4 Fields on Saturday...4 :D How excitement!

it is exciting isn't it, even if you get beat

I LOVE shows where there are other Fauves. I LOVE having all the people on the side of the ring watching because there are so many of us for once. I LOVE being able to see the other Fauves in Australia, get my hands on them etc.

I have to agree with this! My next breed has more dogs in the field then in the show ring in my state so when I get my dog I am hoping to be able to show one of the field dogs that at the same time (It has all the right paperwork, approval from the breeder, sold as a show prospect ect.). I am trying to recruit the competition

Also like showdog has mentioned people from WA who can afford it do travel interstate to speacilties or Royals to get thier dog out against competition (which I hope to do and have done before).

[Aziah]

My thoughts on the entire matter are that if you haven't been showing long and don't totally enjoy it win or lose or have been showing for a while but whinge constantly or wish to change the system then it's probably not the place/hobby for you.

That's all generally speaking of course.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

ETA: we all have a whinge every now and then, but anyone whining constantly about the system in general should probably re-think participating.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Aziah

[becks]

In the U.K. dogs have to compete for their title against the champions and big winners in each breed and they have huge entries at every show that offers challenges, so having to beat the best to gain your title doesn't appear to deter exhibitors over there.

Actually, having a big winner does affect the entries. eg in Giant schnauzers when Philip Oliver was winning so much, we were lucky to get even 6 or 8 males turn up at a show, prior to that there would be 30 or so. Since he retired we are now slowly starting to see a few more males being shown.

There are many breeds where a dog is going for the CC record and it does affect the number of dogs entered, why pay £20 - £25 pounds to enter a show when you know there is a really good chance your dog won't be the famous one?

[LizT]

How about we have an optional "Champion Class" Once you are titled you can decide if you want to enter it. This would be a class for people aiming to obtain Grand Champion Status. Ch Dog V Ch bitch for Ch of Breed. This winner to compete for Ch in Group with points awarded accordingly. These points accrue towards Gr Ch Title Obviously the finer details would need to be hashed over, eg if there are Breed points ect./ age requirements.

Then if you have a dog that titles young, you can still opt to show in the normal classes as your dog matures. Maybe there is an automatic upgrade if you dog reaches a certain amount of points. So to obtain your Ch title you would/could still be competing against titled dogs.

This would also possibly keep titled dogs competing a bit longer. For instance I have/show a Black pug boy. He is titled with mostly 20-25 point BOB's (and mostly from Breed Specialists). I have no desire to try for Grand Ch but I don't want to take him out of the ring yet because there are not enough Black Pugs in the ring. How many people take their dogs out after they have titiled?

Here are some interesting figures. At our Ch show on the weekend we had 165 entries (30 Babies) We had a 20 dog Open Dog Class 15 Ch and 1 GrCh. Open bitch 8 bitches - 4 Ch and 4 Gr Ch 47 titled dogs overall 2 of them black from all over Australia. Not an easy breed to get a title in

Because unless you then excluded these dogs from competing from BOB, most judges would not bother walking past the head of the line for BOB...

"Hmmm....do I choose the titled champion...or should I go for this up-n-comer puppy??"

That's probably the same reason no one bothers to offer the "Novice Class" ie. never having been placed at Shows. No one wants a neon sign above their dog saying "Loser" LOL

[SnoPaws]

GayleK :I think its really ignorant of you to call titles meaningless. :D

Titles mean alot to people whether they are the breeder the owner / handler.

Titles also mean alot to first time show people too. When they title there first showdog.

To a breeder when they bred their first Ch ect......

As for rare breeds unless you own one , show one or know want its like to have one. I think you should'nt comment. IMO.

I don't have a rare breed, quite the opposite, 35ish entries on the weekend which included three grand champs.

I have beaten all three, not often but I have. I have no problem showing against them and have worked my arse off to obtain my dogs titles.

I have no issue with rarer breeds obtaining titles with 6 point challenges. The judge has signed a certificate to say they are worthy of the the title. It is not their fault they do not have any competition and very different to dogs travelling to avoid competition.

Agree with needing to see more judges non award.

[aussiezrule]

My thoughts on the entire matter are that if you haven't been showing long and don't totally enjoy it win or lose or have been showing for a while but whinge constantly or wish to change the system then it's probably not the place/hobby for you.

That's all generally speaking of course.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

ETA: we all have a whinge every now and then, but anyone whining constantly about the system in general should probably re-think participating.

I agree :D Frankly I am sick of people winging that they can't beat their competition and blaming it on the system and whatever else they can blame it on. If your dog is good enough it WILL beat the competition, it might take a while, since puppies will grow up but in the end if your dog is that good, it will end up being the one to beat! I am currently showing a young bitch who has multiple classes in groups (with some very good competiton) from only a few shows, and has only ever been beaten once in her class, she has only got 8 points toward her title, but she is only 12 months old!! I don't expect her to be her best until she is at least 3, and yes she will probably be a champion before then, but I cannot understand what the rush is to title young dogs, I say enjoy the ride!!

AND we all have to remember this is supposed to be a hobby, and generally we like our hobbys, so if you are not enjoying dog shows find something else to do with your dog... there are a multitude of other sports available to try that might better suit.

Personally I would be dissapointed if they changed the system so you didnt have to compete against the best to get a title.

Cheers

Karen

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I agree Frankly I am sick of people winging that they can't beat their competition and blaming it on the system and whatever else they can blame it on. If your dog is good enough it WILL beat the competition

Sometimes. Cronyism is a problem in the sport.

If a dog is good enough it will win over time providing it's not handled really poorly, but it may not win on any specific day or very often in a specific region due to the prevailing norms there. And if the newbie doesn't understand that and have people supporting them with training and advice, they will get disillusioned quickly.

You get cronyism no matter what system is used tho', so I agree that blaming the system or dumbing it down is not the answer. And plenty of people blame their loss on just about everything but the real issues - their dog and their handling.

[poodlefan]

You get cronyism no matter what system is used tho', so I agree that blaming the system or dumbing it down is not the answer. And plenty of people blame their loss on just about everything but the real issues - their dog and their handling.

Ain't that the truth.

[emery]

My first show dog, i went along to show classes still very much clueless showed the dog and had fun, i came last in ever class lol. yeah it was disheartening but we had fun. With time and effort this dog is now part way to her title she just turned 3. i have her daughter here who's sister is a quarter of the way to her title at 8 months my girl still to receive points but ya know what when she gets looked at my heart swells. There has been times when she has gone up over one of the best handlers in this state in our breed and even if i get no further the feeling is amazing. She has beaten the male for class of breed pretty much every second week (we share it around lol) and also won a baby in gorup. SHe may not have any points but we are getting there and its taken 3 years lol.

I very much want to compete against the champs/grand champs as it will make the win so much more special.

yes we have high competiton in our breed pretty much 20 or more at every show but we enjoy getting out there and seeing where we place. I don't think we need to change the system.

We also sit with someone who has a rare breed she is only ever the same one there and she has been NA'd because the judge doesn't think her dog is mature enough etc so it does happen.

[puglvr]

I probably didn't make my thoughts clear. My suggestion for the Champion Class was that it was for Ch to compete against other Ch for their Gr Ch title. The class is "semi- optional", that is you don't have to enter if your dog is young (?? years), giving a young titled dog time to mature. Once they reach a certain age or ammount of points they have to move into the CH class. They don't compete for BOB so there is no" I'll put the CH up to be safe"

I am one of these people who actually put more consideration into how dogs perform at Breed Specialty Shows under Breed Specialists. Being "on the Pegs" at the Breed Specialty, consistently over a number of years, under a number of breed specialists is probably a better indication of a dogs quality than the number of CH points they have.

[emery]

I probably didn't make my thoughts clear. My suggestion for the Champion Class was that it was for Ch to compete against other Ch for their Gr Ch title. The class is "semi- optional", that is you don't have to enter if your dog is young (?? years), giving a young titled dog time to mature. Once they reach a certain age or ammount of points they have to move into the CH class. They don't compete for BOB so there is no" I'll put the CH up to be safe"

I am one of these people who actually put more consideration into how dogs perform at Breed Specialty Shows under Breed Specialists. Being "on the Pegs" at the Breed Specialty, consistently over a number of years, under a number of breed specialists is probably a better indication of a dogs quality than the number of CH points they have.

But isn't this still going to remove the best from the competition? I personally want to beat those already titled it will make the win much mroe special to me

[becks]

Why can't young titled dogs compete against the mature champs? surely they had to beat them to get the points? Or is that not how the aus system works?

I've been showing one of mine under the FCI system and like how it works, with the CAC/CACIB moving down the line to the best untitled dog who has already been graded high enough to be of champion quality.

[WreckitWhippet]

Why can't young titled dogs compete against the mature champs? surely they had to beat them to get the points? Or is that not how the aus system works?

I've been showing one of mine under the FCI system and like how it works, with the CAC/CACIB moving down the line to the best untitled dog who has already been graded high enough to be of champion quality.

Make that, why can't any dog compete against the mature champs ? If they are good enough they can.

That's how it currently happens.

The last boy and girl I titled, have shown ( like many others ) that it can be done, having titled and 13 and 14 months. Both of them had to beat CH's, GR Ch's, BIS and BISS winners to do it.

It's time for exhibitors to take a good look at what is in their back yards, rather than complaining about why they can't title a dog or how they have to compete against older, mature dogs or CH's that could in reality be 12 months old and barely out of puppy themselves.

Good on those who enjoy their achievements and the competition , rather than whinging about it.

[helen]

I have always been in favour of having a Champions class. I understand the thought that why should a dog not need to beat the champions to become a champion but there are many shows when dogs can become a champion without ever beating another dog anyway. I think if the Champions were in a seperate class the entry of non champions would increase which in the long run may make it harder for dogs to become champions without beating other dogs. In many breeds there may be a dog that wins consistantly and other exhibitors start to drop off in the breed. Look at any breed and as soon as a dog appears that wins all the time, no matter what breed it is others show a lot less.

Ian

I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.

Earn it!

Beat the best to be the best.

I agree with this completely. I started showing a while after I got my dog Bella who is now 11 and can still remember very well how daunting it was to look in the catalogue and realise that I was competing against champions. I probably would have stopped except for the encouragement of some other people in the breed who also showed her for me a bit until she got her title (she went on to RUBISS champion and BISS open show so is a great dog). Maybe it could be the trick to finally increase the numbers at shows.

Maybe if you conbined this with the suggestion below, and took it one step further, only champions are eligible to compete for best in group at all breeds shows

How about we have an optional "Champion Class" Once you are titled you can decide if you want to enter it. This would be a class for people aiming to obtain Grand Champion Status. Ch Dog V Ch bitch for Ch of Breed. This winner to compete for Ch in Group with points awarded accordingly. These points accrue towards Gr Ch Title Obviously the finer details would need to be hashed over, eg if there are Breed points ect./ age requirements.

Then if you have a dog that titles young, you can still opt to show in the normal classes as your dog matures. Maybe there is an automatic upgrade if you dog reaches a certain amount of points. So to obtain your Ch title you would/could still be competing against titled dogs.

This would also possibly keep titled dogs competing a bit longer. For instance I have/show a Black pug boy. He is titled with mostly 20-25 point BOB's (and mostly from Breed Specialists). I have no desire to try for Grand Ch but I don't want to take him out of the ring yet because there are not enough Black Pugs in the ring. How many people take their dogs out after they have titiled?

Here are some interesting figures. At our Ch show on the weekend we had 165 entries (30 Babies) We had a 20 dog Open Dog Class 15 Ch and 1 GrCh. Open bitch 8 bitches - 4 Ch and 4 Gr Ch 47 titled dogs overall 2 of them black from all over Australia. Not an easy breed to get a title in

Change is not a bad thing necessarily. Some people are saying if it aint broken don't fix it, but all we seem to hear about is declining numbers so surely if this is true the whole system needs to be looked at.

The only other thing I could even think of is to introduce an encouragement title of some sort that you can achieve before champion and that could be based on class in breed wins or similar for younger dogs

And for those who think anyone who wants a champion class is only because you can't beat other dogs - not necessarily so. My next girl was pulled from the ring before she was 12 months old as she was winning and had plenty enough points for her title, and all my dogs have gone on to BISS and/or RUBISS

And I also know of breeders who don't like to show once their dogs are titled so as they don't discourage others in the breed

Edited March 31, 2011 by helen

[Stolzseinrotts]

To those who have contributed to this thread and offered their opinions.

:D To those of you who have offered some other ideas to try and keep more dogs in the ring. :D Thank you that is what I was looking for in the responses.

To make things clear.

This thread is not about having a whinge about not being able the beat the Champions in the ring. The WHOLE point of this thread was to hear what others thought and to see what other alternatives people could suggest to keep dogs in the ring which in turn keeps the numbers that allow our smaller shows to run and survive as well as keeping the numbers up to allow us a future with dog shows.

And those of you that have been around a long time will know that the numbers are dropping off and you will also know that we are loosing our All Breed Clubs because of lack of support in both the entries and people to run them.

This was once said to me many many years ago......................Criticism is always welcomed but with it you have to offer suitable alternatives.

Again thank you to everybody for your responses, it has been an interesting read so far. :D

Edited March 31, 2011 by Stolzseinrotts

[klink]

I probably didn't make my thoughts clear. My suggestion for the Champion Class was that it was for Ch to compete against other Ch for their Gr Ch title. The class is "semi- optional", that is you don't have to enter if your dog is young (?? years), giving a young titled dog time to mature. Once they reach a certain age or ammount of points they have to move into the CH class. They don't compete for BOB so there is no" I'll put the CH up to be safe"

I am one of these people who actually put more consideration into how dogs perform at Breed Specialty Shows under Breed Specialists. Being "on the Pegs" at the Breed Specialty, consistently over a number of years, under a number of breed specialists is probably a better indication of a dogs quality than the number of CH points they have.

I find all the discussion re this class or that class to me is a further indication just how much the show scene is hurting. from comments ranging from the pros and cons of all breed shows and of course the inenevitable comparisons to the specialty shows and their superior judge qualities is the greatest load of b/s I have heard. These comparisons have been around that long they have whiskers.Experience over some 27yrs. have shown me that the majority of " specialist " tragics readily use the old all breed shows to gain their titles which to me is another indication that many are only too happy to lower their standard if it means a title. I believe that all specialist clubs should be disbanded because of the damage they do to the overall dog scene. How many German Shepherd dogs' do you see at all breed shows ? How many Rottweilers do you see at all breed shows ? but check their numbers at specialist shows. Does anybody really believe that we dont' have judges here capable of judging these breeds. Look at both of these breeds and see what the so called experts have done to these once magnificent breeds. Just be greatfull for your beautiful dogs' and enjoy the days out with them,it aint' rocket science.

[emery]

I probably didn't make my thoughts clear. My suggestion for the Champion Class was that it was for Ch to compete against other Ch for their Gr Ch title. The class is "semi- optional", that is you don't have to enter if your dog is young (?? years), giving a young titled dog time to mature. Once they reach a certain age or ammount of points they have to move into the CH class. They don't compete for BOB so there is no" I'll put the CH up to be safe"

I am one of these people who actually put more consideration into how dogs perform at Breed Specialty Shows under Breed Specialists. Being "on the Pegs" at the Breed Specialty, consistently over a number of years, under a number of breed specialists is probably a better indication of a dogs quality than the number of CH points they have.

I find all the discussion re this class or that class to me is a further indication just how much the show scene is hurting. from comments ranging from the pros and cons of all breed shows and of course the inenevitable comparisons to the specialty shows and their superior judge qualities is the greatest load of b/s I have heard. These comparisons have been around that long they have whiskers.Experience over some 27yrs. have shown me that the majority of " specialist " tragics readily use the old all breed shows to gain their titles which to me is another indication that many are only too happy to lower their standard if it means a title. I believe that all specialist clubs should be disbanded because of the damage they do to the overall dog scene. How many German Shepherd dogs' do you see at all breed shows ? How many Rottweilers do you see at all breed shows ? but check their numbers at specialist shows. Does anybody really believe that we dont' have judges here capable of judging these breeds. Look at both of these breeds and see what the so called experts have done to these once magnificent breeds. Just be greatfull for your beautiful dogs' and enjoy the days out with them,it aint' rocket science.

can't answer the german shepherd one but here in perth we often have 20 rottis at any one show and sometimes not much more at our specialty unless we get interstaters across. we normally always have a full line up and competion in classes.

eta a lot of our rottis that are graded multi v rated or are multi BISS winners or place getters etc also tend to be mutli BIS or BIG winners so think they are holding there own in both rings and haven't been altered per se to get a title

Edited April 1, 2011 by emery