Champion Class- Should We Have A Seperate Class?

[SparkyTansy]

I agree with others, that we should leave it as is.

I have had two different experiences - my first showdog took a while to mature, and couldn't beat much during that time. I was also learning to groom and handle and pretty much ruined his chances during that time, plus he didn't really enjoy being in the ring!! When he finally matured, he still hated the ring, and we were up against a big winner (who later went on to his Grand). We beat him maybe twice during this entire time... at the time, it sucked, as I would spend countless hours maintaining and getting him ready for shows... I ended up pulling him from the ring as he was getting older and getting worse in the ring, and he never titled. Looking back, yes he didn't really beat that dog much, but he did beat others for RCC and RUBOB, and this was the majority of the time... I still believe that he was good enough to title, but just not good enough to beat that dog!

My other experience is different. I handled my sisters dog to his title, but this is a breed who has multiple "uglies" and coat changes. He was shown rarely in the early years and didn't get a point until he hit Intermediate. Then, all of a sudden, he was beating Grand champions and being shortlisted for groups, being placed over big winners under specialty and international judges. He titled his just over 6 months after his first set of points and finished his title with a BISS. This is a breed that is hard work and many people would be discouraged if not winning straight away. Perseverence, sometimes, is the key. It didn't apply to my first dog, but certainly applied in this case.

[-Megz-]

No I've shown him about 8 times I think, but 4 of those shows were interstate, and before that I showed my bitch for a couple of years but she hated it.

As someone with a popular breed I'm curious of your opinion on the competition. If you showed regularly for a couple of years you would know a bit about the way it works and would know your own results to form an opinion. I just don't see what your opinion is in the thread it seems to jump all over the place a bit.

I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.

Earn it!

Beat the best to be the best.

exactly !!! let's not "cheapen" our Ch titles.

How much cheaper could it get? I have two six point champions! I'm not happy about that, but can't help having a breed that isn't common and never has competition. In the dogs defence, they are class in group winners (with competition) however since those awards don't go towards their ch. title, it's pretty scant arguement. but in the end, they both are titled and never beat another dog to get there....that's cheap! Putting a championship class in, won't affect me here in any form because of the numbers, however having a champion class is common place for me and I wouldn't have any issues with it, regardless of whether my breed is popular or not. The ONLY problem I've always had, is that the judges tend to put the dogs up for best of breed from that class simply becaus they know they are champions and not all those dogs are better than the non championed exhibits.

There are quite a few of your breed in NSW/ACT aren't there? I was sure I saw some results with your name in them recently up that way

[Dellcara]

How much cheaper could it get? I have two six point champions! I'm not happy about that, but can't help having a breed that isn't common and never has competition. In the dogs defence, they are class in group winners (with competition) however since those awards don't go towards their ch. title, it's pretty scant arguement. but in the end, they both are titled and never beat another dog to get there....that's cheap! Putting a championship class in, won't affect me here in any form because of the numbers, however having a champion class is common place for me and I wouldn't have any issues with it, regardless of whether my breed is popular or not. The ONLY problem I've always had, is that the judges tend to put the dogs up for best of breed from that class simply becaus they know they are champions and not all those dogs are better than the non championed exhibits.

There is never going to be a "perfect" system that all people will agree with totally.

You can't penalise "minority breeds" and say they must get something in Group to go towards a Ch title. There are breeds that don't have 6 pointers but the

quality might still not be there in the entry.

It all comes down to the judge awarding the CC.

Yes, removing Champions from winning CC's would "cheapen" the title - as it does in the US (in my opinion).

Edited March 29, 2011 by Dellcara

[Dogsfevr]

The fact is being a champion is part of the process in many breeds that can/could enjoy a 7/8 yr career.

It has been said that if your first dog isn't winning why should you get rid of it to get a better one.well the same applies to those with a winning dog,why should they retire or make life easier for others if its there only show dog ??

Many dog people aren't breeders & show 1 or 2 dogs through a full show career & then when retired look at a youngster to bring up.

For me a good dog can easily be shown till 7/8 yrs .

I don't breed my setters,i show them if good enough till 6/7 years old older if possible.

I generally have 1 or 2 dogs going each time ,if they don;t make the grade then they are retired because as owner/handler it is up to us to present an example that meets the standard as close as possible

I say those who think it should be made easier are welcome to come live in Perth,NT & Tasmania & maybe you will have a new appreciation of how much easier you have it or can have it .

Or maybe someone would like to do 4 or 6 day drive with me to find comp east or pay my $360 excess bill for my 1 dog to fly??

The system works for the whole Australia & infact its us smaller states or isolated states that that drool over the opportunities those in SA (they can easily drive) Vic,NSW,ACT & Qld have for showing .

Even if people in those states chose not to drive a few hrs down the road to cluster shows is far more doable .

The reality is very few people would dream of attending a show in Perth because its too far or cost to much but this is our reality

The other thing is why would a breeder then sell a good show prospect to a state where there is no comp if it couldn't title .??

The whole make it easier is a slap in the face for judges & a slap in the face for those people dedicated to showing there chosen breed irrespective of numbers

[Finnesse]

It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly.

The same thing would happen if it was made that rare breeds receive no points for not beating anything. We just do not have the numbers in a whole heap of breeds for much competition here in Austalia. 6 or 7 point challenges are it the majority of the time, and not by choice for most of us!

Each and every judge has to sign their name that each and every challenge winner is worthy of their champion title.

im currently handling a rare breed... and i totally agree people give me crap cause she rarely has competition... but at the end of the day she fits the standard and is worthy of the title otherwise she would be non awarded!! and rightly so!!

I agree.

I am really getting sick and tired of hearing about how rare breeds titles are crap and unworthy etc etc. just because we are usually the only ones at the show.

We pay for a judges opinion, we get it and they believe that said dog is worthy of being an Australia Champion, after all theirs is the only opinion on the day that counts towards anything. If I wanted the opinion of a know it all bystander I would pay for their opinion instead.

My dogs have titled on 6/7/8 point challenges and I am sorry that I do not have the inclination, time or money to head interstate to go up against a few more of my breed.

Owning a rare breed isn't as fun in the ring as people make it out too be, it's just as demoralising going into the ring every time knowing you will get your BOB but never anything else.....or even getting a look in for any group wins even if the dog is good enough. Other states are currently having a bit of luck and Tollers are getting put up more and more.....one day Victoria may get it's go

Keeping on topic now, but no I don't believe Champions should get their own class.

So am I My rare breed will have her title very shortly hopefully, but continuously hearing this unworthy rubbish and had no competition is making me feel like it isn't going to be a big deal to anyone else and that she didn't deserve it and just got it handed to her. It is tough out there being the only one in your breed, it's not much fun at all actually. One reason I am going to be very proud when she gets her title is that as a rare breed luckily she has managed 3 Minor Puppy in Groups and 4 Puppy in Groups against some really tough competition which is no mean feat considering some judges don't like putting the rare breed up. Maybe that still doesn't make her worthy though.

Like people have said, judges don't have to award anything if they don't think they are worthy and if you think they are going to award a dog anyway then maybe a lot of popular breeds aren't deserving their challenge points either because there might be 6 really bad examples of the breed out there in the ring every week and one will still get the points if you believe they don't non-award. Sorry rant over!!

I also believe don't fix what ain't broke and don't think Champions need their own class.

Edited March 29, 2011 by Tobster

[Gayle.]

No I've shown him about 8 times I think, but 4 of those shows were interstate, and before that I showed my bitch for a couple of years but she hated it.

As someone with a popular breed I'm curious of your opinion on the competition. If you showed regularly for a couple of years you would know a bit about the way it works and would know your own results to form an opinion. I just don't see what your opinion is in the thread it seems to jump all over the place a bit.

Ahhhh, gotcha. I don't have the qualifying x-factor to be able to discuss the topic. I didn't realise that was required, sorry I'll exit the topic now.

[Shaar]

In regards to rare breeds and 6 point challenges: About half of my boys points were 6 point challenges, the other half ranged from 7-10 points. There just aren't many of them down here so he is often the only one of the breed.

The week after he titled he pulled 2 Best in Groups in a row, so I'm not worried about what others are saying, he has more than proven himself by being there in the BIS lineup more than once!

Saying that dogs shouldn't get the Ch. title if they don't beat any other dogs is unfair really.

[-Megz-]

No I've shown him about 8 times I think, but 4 of those shows were interstate, and before that I showed my bitch for a couple of years but she hated it.

As someone with a popular breed I'm curious of your opinion on the competition. If you showed regularly for a couple of years you would know a bit about the way it works and would know your own results to form an opinion. I just don't see what your opinion is in the thread it seems to jump all over the place a bit.

Ahhhh, gotcha. I don't have the qualifying x-factor to be able to discuss the topic. I didn't realise that was required, sorry I'll exit the topic now.

You are discussing this topic, I just didn't understand what your opinion was. Was asking for clarification.

If exiting is the way you want to go then so be it - didn't know I was asking a hard question.

[benshiva]

I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.

Earn it!

Beat the best to be the best.

I agree with Megz here. If a dog is good enough, it will beat the titled dogs anyway.

[Gayle.]

No I've shown him about 8 times I think, but 4 of those shows were interstate, and before that I showed my bitch for a couple of years but she hated it.

As someone with a popular breed I'm curious of your opinion on the competition. If you showed regularly for a couple of years you would know a bit about the way it works and would know your own results to form an opinion. I just don't see what your opinion is in the thread it seems to jump all over the place a bit.

Ahhhh, gotcha. I don't have the qualifying x-factor to be able to discuss the topic. I didn't realise that was required, sorry I'll exit the topic now.

You are discussing this topic, I just didn't understand what your opinion was. Was asking for clarification.

If exiting is the way you want to go then so be it - didn't know I was asking a hard question.

You asked how I found the competition in my breed. Seeing as I haven't shown a dog here since last October (aside from a members comp last weekend), I don't have an opinion on the competition as there hasn't been any.

I have shown my bitch previously, solidly from baby puppy to junior, then sporadically after that....to learn about the breed, my dog and showing etc, but I didn't learn much and found I learn more by not going to shows but doing other things with the dogs.

So I do know how dogs shows work, how the points are allocated etc. But knowing it doesn't make it easier to understand.

Case in point. My bitch got a couple of 6 point challenges when she was the only entry at a couple of local shows. The only shows she's entered where she's been the sole bitch of the breed. She has never been non-awarded. So those judges signed the certificate agreeing she is of a good enough standard to carry the title "Champion". With competition, she'd win her class but didn't ever get any points. Fair enough.

But I could keep seeking out those 6 point challenges, and eventually title her (she might be a bit grey around the muzzle by the time I manage it) and she'd be a champion. It wouldn't be a cheap title, I'd have to travel a long way to get those points......but it would be as good of a title as any other dog who never beat a dog to get their title. And on a pedigree in generations to come, it would be as good a title as any dog who beat hundreds of others to get theirs.

Personally, I don't think she's good enough to title with competition and a title without would be meaningless. Plus she hates shows and gets around the ring like she'd rather be anywhere but there. So the kindest thing for her is to have her speyed and love her beyond reason for being the absolutely most fantastic dog in the world, for the rest of her life. I will absolutely not shuffle off my dogs to another home just so I can get a "better" dog to show.

Now I have a lovely young dog who I am told is really quite special......we shall see, I suppose. Maybe when I can be bothered going to a few shows in Vic with him, I'll have an answer for you about the competition in the breed, but right now I don't have a opinion because I'm a bit out of touch.

I do enjoy reading and discussing others opinions though. It's an interesting topic.

[Rebanne]

But I could keep seeking out those 6 point challenges, and eventually title her (she might be a bit grey around the muzzle by the time I manage it) and she'd be a champion. It wouldn't be a cheap title, I'd have to travel a long way to get those points......but it would be as good of a title as any other dog who never beat a dog to get their title.

no it wouldn't cause you would be going out of your way to not have competition, whereas most of us who do have the only one of the breed represented on the day can't bloody well find any cause there is none!

How very insulting your post is to owners of rare breeds

[Gayle.]

But I could keep seeking out those 6 point challenges, and eventually title her (she might be a bit grey around the muzzle by the time I manage it) and she'd be a champion. It wouldn't be a cheap title, I'd have to travel a long way to get those points......but it would be as good of a title as any other dog who never beat a dog to get their title.

no it wouldn't cause you would be going out of your way to not have competition, whereas most of us who do have the only one of the breed represented on the day can't bloody well find any cause there is none!

How very insulting your post is to owners of rare breeds

Actually, I probably wouldn't have to go out of my way as both of those shows were closer to me than KCC Park. It might take a few years though. If I wanted to do it quicker, I'd have to travel further though. How is it insulting to rare breeds?

Edited March 29, 2011 by GayleK

[RallyValley]

In my (limited) expirence I have to say that I have handled a rare breed,the only one of the breed on that day, to win a Puppy in Group over competition. And he has also won another Puppy in Group.

I think this puppy is a stunning example of the breed and if he is campaigned enough he will one day win a BIG under a judge who truly knows the standard of the breed. However, being the only one in the ring week in and week out and then having a beautiful (not my dog so not being biased!) specimen get overlooked time and time again is disheartning and only stops rare breeds showing, especially when people crap on about 'cheap titles' these dogs have.Making the cycle of 6pts Ch's happen again.

Having a champions class would only make this worse as 'rare breeds' tend to title quite young and would be stuck in Champions class and not have the options of Intermediate/OzBred/State Bred and Open.

[aussiezrule]

I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.

Earn it!

Beat the best to be the best.

I agree!!!!

[Gayle.]

By the way, I had no idea there'd be no competition at those shows, I turned up there fully expecting at least a few other dogs. But instead of go in, go out, go home, I went in, went out, went to the secretary's tent and then went home.

[SwaY]

I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.

Earn it!

Beat the best to be the best.

I agree!

[Rebanne]

But I could keep seeking out those 6 point challenges, and eventually title her (she might be a bit grey around the muzzle by the time I manage it) and she'd be a champion. It wouldn't be a cheap title, I'd have to travel a long way to get those points......but it would be as good of a title as any other dog who never beat a dog to get their title.

no it wouldn't cause you would be going out of your way to not have competition, whereas most of us who do have the only one of the breed represented on the day can't bloody well find any cause there is none!

How very insulting your post is to owners of rare breeds

Actually, I probably wouldn't have to go out of my way as both of those shows were closer to me than KCC Park. It might take a few years though. If I wanted to do it quicker, I'd have to travel further though. How is it insulting to rare breeds?

If you can't manage to understand what you said I'm can't be bothered trying to explain. BTW didn't you also show your 1st Aussie a few times?

[Gayle.]

But I could keep seeking out those 6 point challenges, and eventually title her (she might be a bit grey around the muzzle by the time I manage it) and she'd be a champion. It wouldn't be a cheap title, I'd have to travel a long way to get those points......but it would be as good of a title as any other dog who never beat a dog to get their title.

no it wouldn't cause you would be going out of your way to not have competition, whereas most of us who do have the only one of the breed represented on the day can't bloody well find any cause there is none!

How very insulting your post is to owners of rare breeds

Actually, I probably wouldn't have to go out of my way as both of those shows were closer to me than KCC Park. It might take a few years though. If I wanted to do it quicker, I'd have to travel further though. How is it insulting to rare breeds?

If you can't manage to understand what you said I'm can't be bothered trying to explain. BTW didn't you also show your 1st Aussie a few times?

I do understand what you said, but the challenge certificates are signed by the same judges that sign the challenge certificates for rare breeds too, and if the dog is awarded then doesn't the dog deserve the points as much as a rare breed?

I have never shown Benson.

[SwaY]

There is a difference between a -

a) 6 point champion through no fault of there own (other dogs don't turn up, rare breed etc).

b) 6 point champion with several classes in group/show having beaten other dogs.

c) 6 point champion going out of there way to avoid competition and not winning any classes in group/show.

[Rebanne]

I do understand what you said, but the challenge certificates are signed by the same judges that sign the challenge certificates for rare breeds too, and if the dog is awarded then doesn't the dog deserve the points as much as a rare breed?

not when you go out of your way to avoid competition just so you can get those points, totally different scenarios