Miss B Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Was there ever a dog that you know of, that was a rare breed that did not title despite being shown many, many times, because no judge thought it was worthy of the title of champion? That is, non-awarded at every show it entered? Why would someone continue to show a dog like that? My "first" show dog is a desexed couch potato after a very short career in the ring. She does not meet standard. She placed last in every class she entered. Even if I took her to a show and she was the only exhibit of her breed I seriously doubt any judge would have awarded her the Challenge certificate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Was there ever a dog that you know of, that was a rare breed that did not title despite being shown many, many times, because no judge thought it was worthy of the title of champion? That is, non-awarded at every show it entered? Why would someone continue to show a dog like that? My "first" show dog is a desexed couch potato after a very short career in the ring. She does not meet standard. She placed last in every class she entered. Even if I took her to a show and she was the only exhibit of her breed I seriously doubt any judge would have awarded her the Challenge certificate. Because maybe the owners were optimistic that a judge WOULD award a challenge eventually? Has it happened? Has there ever been a rare breed, the only one of it's kind being shown where lots of judges didn't award? My first show dog is going to be desexed later this year, I finally came to the conclusion that she is not good enough and even if she was, she's not interested enough. I think she's lovely and so does her breeder, but she slinks around the ring like a supermodel with a hangover and a really rotten headache. Her whole persona screams "I wanna go home!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 All good points, all good food for though. But back to one of my original points..... If dogs in other states are titling easily against the local competition (ie, wins are shared around, no one or two dogs win week after week), but don't come up against Gr Ch's often, but don't win when they DO come up against Gr Ch's from interstate, does that make them lesser quality dogs with a meaningless title when compared to the ones who regularly compete against the same Gr Ch's and never win a challenge? Dogs title against the STANDARD, not against other dogs. If that were the case, there'd be more than 2 challenges per breed. Not at all, i don't place as much emphasis on Grand Ch as you do ,it is a title not a guarantee you will never beat them or that they aren't beatable,they are just a titled dog that gained the extra requirements for Grand In Perth we have the Xolos being shown( the only ones in the country),they have won RUIG & Cass in groups in a very competitive group. The same could be said in the Obedience word should obedience champions not compete with others??There is never complaints there & nor should there be a good dog is something to be appreciated & admired . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Obedience is different though......firstly, you'd not have an obedience champion competing in CCD or Novice classes. Secondly, obedience is all about skill, and thirdly, there isn't a limit to the amount of passes handed out at an obedience trial. And you don't need to beat a champion, or a dog with a higher title, to gain an obedience title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Obedience is different though......firstly, you'd not have an obedience champion competing in CCD or Novice classes. Secondly, obedience is all about skill, and thirdly, there isn't a limit to the amount of passes handed out at an obedience trial. And you don't need to beat a champion, or a dog with a higher title, to gain an obedience title. So if you where getting second place to an Obedience Champ all the time you wouldn't have an issue?? You say Obedience is about skill so is showing ,you can win or lose in both aspect through bad skills I now you don't have Obedience Ch in the lower classes but you have the same handlers with younger dogs We have the dominate Obedience People in my state & rightly so,they bring out good dogs over & over again just like good show people .they dominate the classes with wins & everyone else either makes the effort to be on the same level & beat them. Most of the regular obedience i now don't go for low grade passes they go for wins just like the show ring All in all very much the same . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The low grade passes though, are titles...and stepping stones to bigger titles. Do you need to beat an obedience champion for your dog to become an obedience champion? I have no idea of what's required there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I looked that up on the Dogs Vic website because I was curious..... An obedience champion has gained his/her UD title, after which it has achieved a further five passes of 185/200 points or more in the utility class. So, no, to answer my own question an obedience champion doesn't have to beat anything, just get the passing scores required. So you could have 10 obedience champions in the same class, and one still untitled and the untitled one could still get their title by gaining the points. And while I think there's a certain level of skill involved in showing dogs, I honestly think there's a lot more skill involved in getting an obedience champion title as compared to a conformation champion title. Which is probably why there's a lot less obedience champions than conformation champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Out of curiosity if they made it easier to title with Champions separate & you titled your dog the easy way would you then show it in Champion class or not go further ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havasneeze Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 A question for those who have been showing for decades....Was there ever a dog that you know of, that was a rare breed that did not title despite being shown many, many times, because no judge thought it was worthy of the title of champion? That is, non-awarded at every show it entered? When I was showing Bearded Collies there was an Australian Cattle Dog (not a rare breed though not always high in numbers being shown) that was continually non-awarded due to it being a long coated ACD that was trimmed. It did actually beat some dogs but I don't know if they finally titled it or gave up trying. Ashley might know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RallyValley Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I looked that up on the Dogs Vic website because I was curious..... An obedience champion has gained his/her UD title, after which it has achieved a further five passes of 185/200 points or more in the utility class. So, no, to answer my own question an obedience champion doesn't have to beat anything, just get the passing scores required. So you could have 10 obedience champions in the same class, and one still untitled and the untitled one could still get their title by gaining the points. And while I think there's a certain level of skill involved in showing dogs, I honestly think there's a lot more skill involved in getting an obedience champion title as compared to a conformation champion title. Which is probably why there's a lot less obedience champions than conformation champions. Have a look at agility Ch. you need a certain amount of 1st places in the competitive Masters (and maybe Open ?) classes. This title is almost akin to a Gr. Ch. in conformation in that you must win to get the title. In retrieveing you must win out of even the entry level class, all dogs must go through entry level so you are competing against very seasoned competitors dogs. However if you take on these sports and aim for these titles YOU are choosing to compete, you can't expect to win all the time, no matter what sport. Titles aren't supposed to be easy or what exactly do they prove other then that the owner has money to burn on entry fees? (I have heard of a dog in WA before my time in the show ring that was non awarded a few times and the owner gave up an neutered the dog after getting some advice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandra777 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 A question for those who have been showing for decades....Was there ever a dog that you know of, that was a rare breed that did not title despite being shown many, many times, because no judge thought it was worthy of the title of champion? That is, non-awarded at every show it entered? Not quite - it did title in the end but I know of a dog of a rare-ish breed which was refused the CC on at least ten occasions that I saw myself. Have gone back and checked the records of my own dog I was showing at the time, different breed, because I note these things so know it was 10 times when I was at the same show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.Earn it! Beat the best to be the best. exactly !!! let's not "cheapen" our Ch titles. yep... (and no, I don't have a yard full of champions - yet to get one.) Would suspect though, that the Gr CH didn't stay out in the ring forever before the Dogzonline point score competition. I know of many Gr Ch that are only out there every single week because of this comp. Stop this comp, and the up and comers would have more opportunities that you are looking for with a separate ch class. Flame suit donned now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tambaqui Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I agree with others along the line of "Don't fix what ain't broken"! I haven't shown for very long, and I think personally after reading what other says of overseas method of awarding points and title, I'd like to think we are very lucky with what we have! It could easily be worse where gaining "Championship" Title would be difficult say by for example... winning Best in Group only! I can speak for one of my dogs, that got his title with little or small competition of less than 10 points! However looking back, he has beaten dogs that was awarded Best in Show at Specialty Level and even Best of Breed at Royal levels, and it doesn't happen often, but there have been judges that liked my dog and put him up! He has on numerous occasions where he was "put up" over champions. I have even been in a position where the bitch challenge was unfortunately refused and my dog was ended up awarded Best of Breed! But ultimately that is the judges choice and I am sure every judges know they have their rights to refuse challenges where applicable. Granted my dog is yet to beat a Grand Champion! Probably the only one in the breed to yet do it! Having a "Champion" and "Grand Champion" Class defeats the point, and isn't that the point of open shows? To allow untitled dogs to compete for Best Dog/Bitch and Best of Breed, but that is probably why there is a lack of open shows as there is no points on offer so people decided to stop going instead! It is possible to beat titled dogs, whether it's in the breed or for Class in Group/Show, you just need a dog as other says that conforms to the standard and a for a judge that likes your dogs! If my dogs has no competition on the day and gets 6 Points Challenge/BOB, then great! If they have competition, you can only do what you can, after all you are taking your dog home, win or lose knowingly that you and your dog have given all their best to perform in that very ring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayly Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly. The same thing would happen if it was made that rare breeds receive no points for not beating anything. We just do not have the numbers in a whole heap of breeds for much competition here in Austalia. 6 or 7 point challenges are it the majority of the time, and not by choice for most of us! Each and every judge has to sign their name that each and every challenge winner is worthy of their champion title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I have the same opinion on Champions and Grand Champions or those showing towards those titles.Earn it! Beat the best to be the best. exactly !!! let's not "cheapen" our Ch titles. yep... (and no, I don't have a yard full of champions - yet to get one.) Would suspect though, that the Gr CH didn't stay out in the ring forever before the Dogzonline point score competition. I know of many Gr Ch that are only out there every single week because of this comp. Stop this comp, and the up and comers would have more opportunities that you are looking for with a separate ch class. Flame suit donned now.... I agree that many of the huge winners are staying in the ring to win this comp and their breeders/owners will openly admit to it...u can tell if they drop of the top position for the next few months they are at EVERY SHOW!! But i dont think we should discourage it at all... I am getting my first show pup in 3 weeks i expect it to be a hard slog to get her titled... adn not because she sint worthy but becasue it shouldnt be easy!! We should have to work hard for such a title on our dogs not EXPECT it just because we are showing it... it will be titled... i think having the GR CH in the ring keeps us trying and striving to better hte breed to beat these fantastic dogs As for the younger dogs not being able to crack the win over the older dogs... a minor puppy won BIG on the weekend as she was a stunner it was an incredible win for her breeder and owner and shows that not all judges are scared to put up older dogs... some dogs just need to mature before they can crack the win... some stay in the ugly puppy stage for a LONG time hahaha All in all i say leave it as is its easy enough to title a dog in Australia ATM according to visiting judges and show people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirst_goldens Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly. The same thing would happen if it was made that rare breeds receive no points for not beating anything. We just do not have the numbers in a whole heap of breeds for much competition here in Austalia. 6 or 7 point challenges are it the majority of the time, and not by choice for most of us! Each and every judge has to sign their name that each and every challenge winner is worthy of their champion title. im currently handling a rare breed... and i totally agree people give me crap cause she rarely has competition... but at the end of the day she fits the standard and is worthy of the title otherwise she would be non awarded!! and rightly so!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly. The same thing would happen if it was made that rare breeds receive no points for not beating anything. We just do not have the numbers in a whole heap of breeds for much competition here in Austalia. 6 or 7 point challenges are it the majority of the time, and not by choice for most of us! Each and every judge has to sign their name that each and every challenge winner is worthy of their champion title. im currently handling a rare breed... and i totally agree people give me crap cause she rarely has competition... but at the end of the day she fits the standard and is worthy of the title otherwise she would be non awarded!! and rightly so!! I agree. I am really getting sick and tired of hearing about how rare breeds titles are crap and unworthy etc etc. just because we are usually the only ones at the show. We pay for a judges opinion, we get it and they believe that said dog is worthy of being an Australia Champion, after all theirs is the only opinion on the day that counts towards anything. If I wanted the opinion of a know it all bystander I would pay for their opinion instead. My dogs have titled on 6/7/8 point challenges and I am sorry that I do not have the inclination, time or money to head interstate to go up against a few more of my breed. Owning a rare breed isn't as fun in the ring as people make it out too be, it's just as demoralising going into the ring every time knowing you will get your BOB but never anything else.....or even getting a look in for any group wins even if the dog is good enough. Other states are currently having a bit of luck and Tollers are getting put up more and more.....one day Victoria may get it's go Keeping on topic now, but no I don't believe Champions should get their own class. Edited March 28, 2011 by tollersowned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Why wouldn't a rare breed get a look in for group? If they are of a good enough standard, they should have the same opportunity as every other dog in the lineup....unless some dogs there are clearly better examples of their breed than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poocow Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Why wouldn't a rare breed get a look in for group? If they are of a good enough standard, they should have the same opportunity as every other dog in the lineup....unless some dogs there are clearly better examples of their breed than others. As I've explained to you before some judges are not confident to put a rare breed for what the ringside gossip mongers might say. Its easy for them to give BIG to a common breed with large numbers and not create a fuss. And I agree with what else has been said about rare breeds, it can get quite demoralising to constantly have people cheapen our champions. Yes my bitch earnt her title on 6/7/8 point BOBs but does that mean shes not a great example of her breed? Its not her fault there aren't many Fields out in the ring. She has many classes in group wins and has been short-listed for BIG on numerous occasions. And I keep taking her to shows because one day I'll find that judge that will give her a BIG and I hope that one day she will be eligible for her Grand. Its not "easy" showing a rare breed, you can and will get non-awarded if they aren't up to scratch! And also young dogs can get awarded over older ones if they are of high enough quality. My Aussie won back to back Best in Groups from the puppy class, not an easy feat! And to weigh in on the Champion Class - no I don't think we need it. I don't see our point system changing anytime soon and why fix it if its not broke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showpony Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly. The same thing would happen if it was made that rare breeds receive no points for not beating anything. We just do not have the numbers in a whole heap of breeds for much competition here in Austalia. 6 or 7 point challenges are it the majority of the time, and not by choice for most of us! Each and every judge has to sign their name that each and every challenge winner is worthy of their champion title. Hi, Another way of looking at this question is.............if the sons and daughters of Champions and Gr Champions can't beat their parents...........then maybe this is a question of what is being produced. I like the system as it is and agree with others that have said that it's not perfect but not broken either. With Arabian Horses, there are only 4 main breed shows a year in NSW ending with the Australian Championships. At this show, in the pure bred Halter section, once you win a Champion Pure bred Mare or Stallion class you cannot compete at this show again.........they do not have a Champion class.........I think it's a shame that these horses cannot compete again and be seen at this event. Also with Dressage, you often get young riders competing in classes with Olympians............and I have regularly seen the young riders win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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