Champion Class- Should We Have A Seperate Class?

[Sandra777]

I wasn't suggesting taking away the CC when there is one dog entered, hence it has a pretty good chance of getting that CC unless it is non-awarded. I was thinking more along the lines of having more CC's available for numerally larger numbers.

Why only numerically stronger breeds? SOME numerically stronger breeds are pretty ordinary in average quality while some minority breeds are absolutely stunning in quality all the way down the line.

There's no way of making the system fair to all, but so long as it's possible to gain a title without ever beating another dog it's all pretty meaningless really. (Could be a group win - it doesn't have to be a dog of the same breed)

Edited March 28, 2011 by Sandra777

[Leema]

I'd like to have a Champion class (after Aus Bred, and Open, there is Champion), but not to have the point system be anything special. The champion class would just be restricted to dogs with the champion title.

[Sandra777]

They have a Champion class in South Africa - it's not compulsory to enter your champion in it though. The champion class winner doesn't compete for the CC If I understand it correctly but a champion entered in the ordinary classes does. Could this work here?

They also have 1 & 2 point CCs over there based on the number of entries at the show so not a lot different in theory to the point system here - but I don't know if you HAVE to win a 2 point CC to become a champion or it just makes the job quicker if you do.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Sandra777

[Gayle.]

I'm in two minds about this, it's something that's come up on a Facebook group I'm in.

Just putting my thoughts down, not agreeing or disagreeing, or arguing with anyone.

To be a champion, your dog needs to be an excellent example of it's breed. Currently there are dogs winning in Victoria, and winning interstate when they are taken to Royals and specialities, who are Grand Champions many times over.

In the other states, there are dogs being titled who are not going up against Grand Champions week in week out. Are these dogs not good enough to hold their title as they are not beating the best dogs in the country? And are the dogs in Vic who are going up against Gr Ch's week after week and not getting points not good enough to hold the title of Ch?

Breeders are sending their dogs interstate temporarily to get their titles, so they don't have to come up against Gr Ch's each week.

I think you should have to beat something to get a title, but to have to beat Gr Ch's? There are dogs regularly winning class in group who can't get points. Why are they good enough to beat all the other breeds in their group but not be awarded points because they can't beat a Gr Ch?

It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly.

And then there's the rare breeds who title while never beating another dog. They then become champions of what? Champions of going to shows? That's not a title. Nor is Champion of Nothing. But they title anyway. There should be a method by which they need to beat other dogs to gain points.

I would love to see a change and make it fairer, so that dogs who DO meet the breed standard and are excellent examples of their breed are recognised as such, but not pit the "amateurs against the pro's". It's a tricky one though.

Edited March 28, 2011 by GayleK

[Dogsfevr]

But the reality is you would still have to beat the champion to win the breed.

If it is to be done the US way the CC winners still have to compete against the Champions to be breed winners or are people expecting the champion class to not be allowed to compete at group level??

Everyone goes on like beating a Grand champ is impossible Why,The dog doesn't have on its head

" im a grand Champ" but once placed in Champion class the judges will certainly now which dogs are titled & which aren't so then those CC winners will have to compete against the Champion class

Also keep in mind if you title at 12 month your dog will have to compete in champion class not say junior

You very immature animal & not coated animal will be competing against animals in its prime just to win the champion class & have no avenues to go any further .

Didn't Sydney Royal actually do the Champion class a few years back & people complained because there young dogs had to compete in an age class they weren't ready for??

Then people had issues if owning 3/4 champions having to find suitable handlers because you couldn't split the classes??

Edited March 28, 2011 by showdog

[Dellcara]

To be a champion, your dog needs to be an excellent example of it's breed.

Currently there are dogs winning in Victoria, and winning interstate when they are taken to Royals and specialities, who are Grand Champions many

times over.

In the other states, there are dogs being titled who are not going up against Grand Champions week in week out

now that's a different story the topic started with the question about a "Champions Class" .... I responded in the negative

so as not to "cheapen" our titles...

if you were to ask about a "Gr Champion Class" then my answer might be different..... LOL .... and this is not because I can't beat

them .. I have 3 Grand Champions here with me now. I would not object to having them shown in a seperate class and still go on

to win Breed etc but maybe not collect anymore points.

[Dogsfevr]

'GayleK' post='5224888' date='28th Mar 2011 - 05:28 PM']To be a champion, your dog needs to be an excellent example of it's breed.

Currently there are dogs winning in Victoria, and winning interstate when they are taken to Royals and specialities, who are Grand Champions many

times over.

In the other states, there are dogs being titled who are not going up against Grand Champions week in week out

now that's a different story the topic started with the question about a "Champions Class" .... I responded in the negative

so as not to "cheapen" our titles...

if you were to ask about a "Gr Champion Class" then my answer might be different..... LOL .... and this is not because I can't beat

them .. I have 3 Grand Champions here with me now. I would not object to having them shown in a seperate class and still go on

to win Breed etc but maybe not collect anymore points.

Wouldn't that be fun

Challenge line up

Grand Ch winner

Champ winner

open

aust

inter

junior

puppy

minor

or Best of winners/champ winner /Grand Ch winner competing for Best of Breed :D

I too have had no issues beating Grand Ch & beating the best on my trips east & to be honest beating those wonderful examples is the icing on the cake.Nothing more exciting than winning a spectacular open class against a line up full of Grands & then to go on to win the breed.

I also have Grands Ch /BISS & BIS winners all owner/handled .I am not a judge/breeder just someone with a passion

[Shaar]

Wouldn't that be fun

Challenge line up

Grand Ch winner

Champ winner

open

aust

inter

junior

puppy

minor

or Best of winners/champ winner /Grand Ch winner competing for Best of Breed wink.gif

Gee I wonder who the judge would give best of breed to then. I don't think champions, grand champions or untitled dogs should have their status revealed to the judges at all.

[Gayle.]

It's kind of hard for newcomers to keep up the enthusiasm week after week when they line up against Grand Champions of their breed at show after show....and often not just one, but a few.....and never, ever win a challenge. And never look like winning a challenge.

It might be the icing on the cake but if you can't ever do it, it's not worth the effort of going to a show.

And it's not "different" because that is exactly what is happening in at least one breed in Victoria, and people who own that breed are staying away in droves. Some would very much like to show but know they won't ever be able to title their dogs here, so don't even bother aside from maybe a speciality once a year. But if it's known that the owners of those Gr Ch's aren't going to be at a particular show, the entry in that breed triples or quadruples.

For those of you who have been showing for a very long time.....if you went to shows and never, ever won a challenge, how long would it take for the novelty to wear off? Bear in mind, not everyone can just "go get another dog" as has often been suggested......quite often the dog being shown is also the family pet and you don;t just shuffle off the family pet to another home so you can get another dog to show.

[Faolmor]

I'm in two minds about this, it's something that's come up on a Facebook group I'm in.

Just putting my thoughts down, not agreeing or disagreeing, or arguing with anyone.

To be a champion, your dog needs to be an excellent example of it's breed. Currently there are dogs winning in Victoria, and winning interstate when they are taken to Royals and specialities, who are Grand Champions many times over.

In the other states, there are dogs being titled who are not going up against Grand Champions week in week out. Are these dogs not good enough to hold their title as they are not beating the best dogs in the country? And are the dogs in Vic who are going up against Gr Ch's week after week and not getting points not good enough to hold the title of Ch?

Breeders are sending their dogs interstate temporarily to get their titles, so they don't have to come up against Gr Ch's each week.

I think you should have to beat something to get a title, but to have to beat Gr Ch's? There are dogs regularly winning class in group who can't get points. Why are they good enough to beat all the other breeds in their group but not be awarded points because they can't beat a Gr Ch?

If they're winning class-in-groups, then it's for a reason. Maybe it's only maturity which is preventing them from beating the Gr Ch? This happened to me - many, many CIG wins, but with a young dog up against a notable Gr Ch, we never saw any points for a long, long time. The CIG wins were enough to keep up motivated, and to keep showing fun and exciting.

I do think some judges need to be bolder when it comes to awarding younger dogs over the older ones, maturity aside. A good dog is a good dog, no matter what the age. We were told on several occasions that the only reason we didn't win was due to maturity...which on one hand I can understand...and on the other side, used to bug the crap out of me, because if the judge liked a certain dog more, then that dog should bloody well win, whether it's younger or not.

It's the only activity/sport/hobby I can think of where novices, beginners and newcomers are expected to compete against A-graders and have to win to get anywhere. When you have a dog of the breed that comes up against Gr Ch's each week, it's demoralising and it has actually turned a lot of people away from showing regularly.

And yet plenty of newcomers can and DO win with their novice dogs, badly handled and with much less finesse on the grooming side of things! It makes those wins extra special, and IMHO and in my own experience keeps showing MORE interesting There is nothing better than beating the big guns with an up-n-comer. I think newbies have the advantage here. When an old-hand has a win over a younger, less mature or less experience dog and handler...big whoop lol. It's almost a done-deal, most of the time, and the only satisfaction I can see in it for someone is maybe rubbing someone's nose in it and trying to push them out. Of course, everyone likes a win, so I guess that's the same for everyone! And even the experienced people are always bringing out young dogs and having to start from scratch again too.

And then there's the rare breeds who title while never beating another dog. They then become champions of what? Champions of going to shows? That's not a title. Nor is Champion of Nothing. But they title anyway. There should be a method by which they need to beat other dogs to gain points.

Dogs title against the STANDARD, not against other dogs. Other competition is a bonus. But each dog is (or *cough* should be) measured against the standard. If a dog is titling on 6 points - that happens a lot here in WA where some breeds are numerically very small - then that dog has seen a lot of judges, all of whom - arguably - know what they're looking at. If each of those judges has agreed that the dog should title against the standard they're being measured against, then that dog is a worthy champion and proudly so.

I would love to see a change and make it fairer, so that dogs who DO meet the breed standard and are excellent examples of their breed are recognised as such, but not pit the "amateurs against the pro's". It's a tricky one though.

I think amateurs should be pitted against the pros. Otherwise, there is nothing to strive for, other than a truly meaningless ribbon, and no one learns anything.

[Dogsfevr]

i did show for many years without winning a challenge .One dog i owned won 46 RCC in a row .

All of us where new exhibitors once,we all did the hard yards & lost ,no one expected to just walk in & be winners,we all took the good with the bad & we made sure we learnt .

As i said before people have no idea how easy it is to show dogs these days compared to the 70/80, & even the early 90's.

Back then we showed against dogs who where bigger winners than are seen now most in todays terms would be Grands multi time over but no one cared they where just a titled dog & your aim was to beat them or certainly improve each time.

Some dogs should never win plain & simple & many owners can't accept that they are being beaten by a better dog one that is closer to the breed standard.

If people don't compete then there not learning & not getting out there to win ,you can't blame the Grand Ch for ever & if the title never existed they would be just simple champions

[Paptacular!]

Wouldn't that be fun

Challenge line up

Grand Ch winner

Champ winner

open

aust

inter

junior

puppy

minor

or Best of winners/champ winner /Grand Ch winner competing for Best of Breed wink.gif

Gee I wonder who the judge would give best of breed to then. I don't think champions, grand champions or untitled dogs should have their status revealed to the judges at all.

I agree. This could prompt inexperienced judges and those unfamiliar with certain breeds (though they shouldn't fall into either of these categories) to give the CC's to their Champion class winner because hey, they're already titled so they must be good.

[poodlefan]

NO.

Our system isn't perfect but it ain't broke either. I say don't try to "fix' it.

I wouldn't mind a few more different kinds of sweepstakes but those shouldn't influence who gets the CCs.

[Paptacular!]

A champions class could be a bit of a 'parade' at the end of awarding CC's perhaps, and not judged as a class.

A bit overkill for every Ch show, but maybe for specialities.

[Trisven13]

Dogs title against the STANDARD, not against other dogs. Other competition is a bonus. But each dog is (or *cough* should be) measured against the standard. If a dog is titling on 6 points - that happens a lot here in WA where some breeds are numerically very small - then that dog has seen a lot of judges, all of whom - arguably - know what they're looking at. If each of those judges has agreed that the dog should title against the standard they're being measured against, then that dog is a worthy champion and proudly so.

As someone whose dogs were both titled on almost exclusively 6 point challenges that is a way of looking at it that I haven't heard before. I like it .

For me I pretty much only consider a show to be a great show when I've won a Class in Group because then I HAVE beaten other dogs. It really isn't as much fun being the only one of your breed day in and day out - some of my favourite showing days have been days when I've been beaten but there have been multiple Fauves in the ring.

[Gayle.]

All good points, all good food for though. But back to one of my original points.....

If dogs in other states are titling easily against the local competition (ie, wins are shared around, no one or two dogs win week after week), but don't come up against Gr Ch's often, but don't win when they DO come up against Gr Ch's from interstate, does that make them lesser quality dogs with a meaningless title when compared to the ones who regularly compete against the same Gr Ch's and never win a challenge?

Dogs title against the STANDARD, not against other dogs.

If that were the case, there'd be more than 2 challenges per breed.

[Hazz]

I disagree with the OP, we do not have the numbers to warrant this system, it will only make the title of "Australian Champion" to have even less value it has now.

In my opinion your up and coming young dogs and untitled stock should be able to beat the Champions/Grand Champions if they can't then maybe they are not worthy of the title, we are meant to be striving to better the breed.

I think to do as proposed in the original post in Australia would be a backward step in breeding programs here today, yes it would make it easy to title a dog (far too easy !) but then what would be the point if you did not have to compete against the dog's that currently dominate the breed.

Many breeds in Australia barely have the numbers now yet to remove the titled dogs from competing for points would only make this worse.

[Gayle.]

A question for those who have been showing for decades....

Was there ever a dog that you know of, that was a rare breed that did not title despite being shown many, many times, because no judge thought it was worthy of the title of champion? That is, non-awarded at every show it entered?

[pixie_meg]

Before i started showing i couldn't understand why only the winning dog and bitch got points. poor old runner up, especially for breeds with high entries gets no points. personally i like the idea of where there is dog(and bitch) 1st place and say there are 6 dogs, they get 10points (hope i've got that right). the second place dog gets 8pts(not 9 as the best dog should get a bit more of an advantage IMO). In the case where there are only 2 or 3 dogs i don't think there should be runner up points.

I'd be interested to know if this would work.

[Faolmor]

All good points, all good food for though. But back to one of my original points.....

If dogs in other states are titling easily against the local competition (ie, wins are shared around, no one or two dogs win week after week), but don't come up against Gr Ch's often, but don't win when they DO come up against Gr Ch's from interstate, does that make them lesser quality dogs with a meaningless title when compared to the ones who regularly compete against the same Gr Ch's and never win a challenge?

Dogs title against the STANDARD, not against other dogs.

If that were the case, there'd be more than 2 challenges per breed.

Nope, because having other dogs in the ring means that the judge is then required to find the two which fit the standard best as they see it It is, after all, meant to be a competition. But I guess my point was that just because there isn't any other competition on the day, shouldn't mean that the dog awarded a CC isn't competitive against the standard, and therefore worthy of the title of Champion.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Faolmor