A Litter Before Sterilizing?

[Gayle.]

Dog that are desexed young tend to be taller rather than shorter. They can also be more lanky and gangly looking as they never fill out properly.

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning.

Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early.

This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further.

Can you please provide links to the qualified evidence. Each time I search for it, I find lots of opinions, some unqualified research (which is really nothing more than someones opinion) but nothing really substantial to back up any claims.

[Alyosha]

I think GayleK was making a simple example rather than a scientific, evidence based argument.

No two dogs are the same, some might benefit from or be less affected by desexing early.

To my way of thinking, with the sheer numbers of unwanted dogs out there - the risks of unplanned pregnancies stemming from "just let her have one season", or "just let him grow to sexual maturity" is too great, and I think non-breeding dogs should be desexed. Fullstop. There are huge risks with unplanned pregnancies or whelpings as well, but that doesn't seem to rate in this argument.

Example, some people I know with a pet entire whippet bitch, lovely secure surroundings, pet male has been castrated, etc etc. Bitch is in season, owner looks out the window and there she is tied with a local mutt who has gained access to their yard. All too easily done. And if they hadn't been able to scrounge up the money for a fast desex and get local help with vet transport? More unwanted pups in the world, and big risks to a little bitch whelping to a big dog.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Alyosha

[_PL_]

It's simple. An undesexed rescue/pound/shelter dog is still 'at risk'.

Some choose to desex young, outright removing that risk.

Some don't: but to manage 100% successfully you must be confident, rigid and organised to enforce an unenforceable desexing contract on a dog you no longer own.

OP: no you don't need puppies.

[Rebanne]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I was responding to post 22 where it was said it didn't really matter how a dog from the pound grew as most of them were mutt's and no one would know if they grew differently from early desexing.

so I mean exactly what I said.

[Rebanne]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I take it to mean that in the overall scheme of things, priority and precedence should be given towards purebred, registered animals over byb animals and pound dogs. I would not condone ANY dog or cat be released from a pound undesexed. End of story. The bone growth has to be a secondary consideration. Yes, large pound animals do deserve a chance to grow correctly, but not at the risk of them having the ability to reproduce upon release/adoption, that would be grossly irresponsible and not under the ethos of "rescue".

way off base here

why even try to answer a question asked of me?

personally I would never buy an early desexed animal from the pound or a breeder. Just because I understand the reasons some places/people/breeders do early desexing doesn't mean I agree with it.

[OSoSwift]

Was at the beach today and had someone telling me that they were going to mate their 4month old Stafford puppy at 10 months of age to "calm her down". After I got over my initial shock I hopefully managed to put them off and tell them the benefits of having her desexed.

The reason for a 10 month or so mating age - they didn't want to have to contain her for 3 or so seasons and wanted to get it out of the way and have her grow up more quickly.

Hopefully talks about mating babies and the huge risks and resulting dollars and potential loss of their bitch may have turned them off. They were also told age and training would quieten their bitch down, having puppies would have nothing to do with it.

Honestly ahd to pick myself up off the floor after they floored me with that one!

[Gayle.]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I was responding to post 22 where it was said it didn't really matter how a dog from the pound grew as most of them were mutt's and no one would know if they grew differently from early desexing.

so I mean exactly what I said.

If it's only a matter of the end size.......and I believe it would be mm's rather than cm's, why on earth would it matter to the owner of a mutt? Or the mutt itself?

For the record, growth is governed by the pituitary gland, not the reproductive organs.

Edited March 27, 2011 by GayleK

[Rebanne]

If it's only a matter of the end size.......and I believe it would be mm's rather than cm's, why on earth would it matter to the owner of a mutt? Or the mutt itself?

For the record, growth is governed by the pituitary gland, not the reproductive organs.

yes but that is the question isn't it? if

[Boxerheart]

Dog that are desexed young tend to be taller rather than shorter. They can also be more lanky and gangly looking as they never fill out properly.

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning.

Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early.

This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further.

Can you please provide links to the qualified evidence. Each time I search for it, I find lots of opinions, some unqualified research (which is really nothing more than someones opinion) but nothing really substantial to back up any claims.

Google is your friend.. And talk to the vets who are objective and not influenced by the RSPCA. You could also get yourself an anatomy and physiology book that is used in medical training and do a bit of research on how important the sex hormones are in the body. You do not need to be fed with a silver spoon.

[Boxerheart]

If it's only a matter of the end size.......and I believe it would be mm's rather than cm's, why on earth would it matter to the owner of a mutt? Or the mutt itself?

For the record, growth is governed by the pituitary gland, not the reproductive organs.

yes but that is the question isn't it? if

Yes and that gland is what instructs the sex organs to function and growth that is sex organ related follows on from that.

[poodlefan]

We are getting a labrador puppy soon, and I'm so excited....but everyone is saying we should have a litter out of her before we sterilize her, as it will 'settle her down'.

Who is "everyone"?

Whomever they are, they are wrong.

Maturity, not whelping brings some degree of calmness. Training for self control and good manners does more.

[poodlefan]

If it's only a matter of the end size.......and I believe it would be mm's rather than cm's, why on earth would it matter to the owner of a mutt? Or the mutt itself?

For the record, growth is governed by the pituitary gland, not the reproductive organs.

It isn't only a matter of size.

It's a matter of bone density, of the proportions of certain bones to others and the resultant impact on hips, on ligaments etc.

Even mutts do dog sports. Mutts also can get HD, rupture cruciates etc.

Both male and female hormones (and their absence) can impact on temperament.

[poochmad]

The number of people who believe this is astounding. Even my friend who grew up with dogs being bred (GSDs) believed it. Luckily she also believed that if she got desexed it would calm her down, LOL...oh I am so sneaky.

[aussielover]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I was responding to post 22 where it was said it didn't really matter how a dog from the pound grew as most of them were mutt's and no one would know if they grew differently from early desexing.

so I mean exactly what I said.

If it's only a matter of the end size.......and I believe it would be mm's rather than cm's, why on earth would it matter to the owner of a mutt? Or the mutt itself?

For the record, growth is governed by the pituitary gland, not the reproductive organs.

The sex hormones feedback to the pituitary gland

http://ezinearticles.com/?Growth-and-Sex-H...&id=5420655

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=152867

[Gayle.]

Neither of those links are at all relevant to early neutering of dogs though.

[poodlefan]

Neither of those links are at all relevant to early neutering of dogs though.

Early desexing removes the primary sources of testosterone and estrogen in puppies. Impact is the same on dogs as it is on people - development doesn't occur normally.

One example - removal of estrogen in bitches can HEIGHTEN aggression.

[aussielover]

No but dog and humans have very similar physiology.

Here is one that is relevant to dogs:

http://www.littleriverlabs.com/neuter.htm

quote from article:

A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 (Salmeri et al JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203) found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks were significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed). The sex hormones close the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. This growth frequently results in a dog that does not have the same body proportions as he/she was genetically meant to. For example, if the femur is normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. This is confirmed by a recent study showing that spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture (Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5).

this article cites some studies published in a well regarded peer reviewed journal.

Edited March 28, 2011 by aussielover

[Gayle.]

Sexual development doesn't occur which is the whole point of neutering. But the question still remains as to whether it is detrimental to the overall health of the dog in the long term, and even those links flat out say that scientists don't know a lot about hormones. And if the research is lacking in human hormones, then I doubt the canine researchers have more answers.

[poodlefan]

Sexual development doesn't occur which is the whole point of neutering. But the question still remains as to whether it is detrimental to the overall health of the dog in the long term, and even those links flat out say that scientists don't know a lot about hormones. And if the research is lacking in human hormones, then I doubt the canine researchers have more answers.

Have you read the papers on early desexing research?

[Gayle.]

Yes I think I read it a while ago. It's not something I'm overly interested in but it does make an interesting topic for debate, especially as I've got two dogs here who were neutered early and don't seem to fit the "pattern".

What is "significantly" taller? (referring to Aussielovers link)....it doesn't have measurements. It would be interesting to see a controlled study......ie, a whole bunch of dogs neutered at an early age, doing the same activities as a whole bunch of entire dogs of the same breed and age, and see just how they compare in the long run. But they'd have to all be the same breed, not crossbreds. And preferably a number of breeds.....small, active, tall, heavyset etc.