A Litter Before Sterilizing?

[Boxerheart]

I have found my bitches more settled after they have had their first season I guess its a maturity thing.

I wonder though...is it the season? Or is the fact that they are a more mature dog by the time they have the season?

Are they scatty heads prior to that first season because the hormone levels are changing and thus after a season

the hormones all start to settle back down and then so does the dog?

For myself, I get a bit frustrated with myself that I only seem 'normal' and 'well adjusted' about one week in every 4.

I love that one week post period.

The season as in puberty in a human triggers physical changes in a dog or girl. It fills us out, our hips get wider, our jaw bone widens, growth is regulated eg height and breadth. The hormones also trigger a readiness to breed. Having a first season is good prior to desexing so as the dog grows correctly.

This is because the sex hormones regulate that growth.

With the RSPCA and animal welfare pushing to desex baby puppies ie from 8 weeks, they are encouraging abnormal growth and potential developmental problems in the older dog.

Proof, any vet knows this.

[Gayle.]

With the RSPCA and animal welfare pushing to desex baby puppies ie from 8 weeks, they are encouraging abnormal growth and potential developmental problems in the older dog.

I can see their point very clearly. The vast majority of dogs sold are not, or should not be bred from. Most of them going through shelters and pounds are mutts, and an incorrect growth rate on them won't matter much (it's not like you know what they'll grow up to look like), and is in fact much less of a worry than the very high chance of them having a litter of more mutts.

And any breeds in danger of ending up as breeding fodder in puppy farms.......poodles, maltese, pugs, shih-tzu, bichons etc, are probably best desexed before being sold unless the breeder is 110% certain of the puppies future.

I can completely understand early desexing in these cases and it's a matter of weighing up the chances of the dog being bred from in the future (high), vs the chances of the dog having some spey-related growth or health issues later in life (low).

[kelpiekaye]

With the RSPCA and animal welfare pushing to desex baby puppies ie from 8 weeks, they are encouraging abnormal growth and potential developmental problems in the older dog.

I can see their point very clearly. The vast majority of dogs sold are not, or should not be bred from. Most of them going through shelters and pounds are mutts, and an incorrect growth rate on them won't matter much (it's not like you know what they'll grow up to look like), and is in fact much less of a worry than the very high chance of them having a litter of more mutts.

And any breeds in danger of ending up as breeding fodder in puppy farms.......poodles, maltese, pugs, shih-tzu, bichons etc, are probably best desexed before being sold unless the breeder is 110% certain of the puppies future.

I can completely understand early desexing in these cases and it's a matter of weighing up the chances of the dog being bred from in the future (high), vs the chances of the dog having some spey-related growth or health issues later in life (low).

It would be interesting to know the statistics of problems with dogs desexed at 8weeks or before. I have seen first hand the results with a dog my parents got of a breeder and without their knowledge the dog was neutered before they got him. He was small for his breed and had mental problems all his life, how much of that was due to being neutered so young I dont know.

Prehaps the RSPCA should charge people for desexing and give them a certificate to redeem.

I know I would never have a dog desex at 8 weekks or before.

[Gayle.]

I think mental problems would be more likely to be congenital rather than linked to early neutering, but yes it would be interesting to find out.

[aussielover]

Dog that are desexed young tend to be taller rather than shorter. They can also be more lanky and gangly looking as they never fill out properly.

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

[Swizzlestick]

The vets I work with continually push for dogs of any size to be neutered at around 3mths. Be it Great Dane or Chihuahua.

We do a fair few RSPCA desexings too, and yes the pups are usually cross breed working types of Staff X's. Anywhere from 8wks up.

[Rebanne]

With the RSPCA and animal welfare pushing to desex baby puppies ie from 8 weeks, they are encouraging abnormal growth and potential developmental problems in the older dog.

I can see their point very clearly. The vast majority of dogs sold are not, or should not be bred from. Most of them going through shelters and pounds are mutts, and an incorrect growth rate on them won't matter much (it's not like you know what they'll grow up to look like), and is in fact much less of a worry than the very high chance of them having a litter of more mutts.

And any breeds in danger of ending up as breeding fodder in puppy farms.......poodles, maltese, pugs, shih-tzu, bichons etc, are probably best desexed before being sold unless the breeder is 110% certain of the puppies future.

I can completely understand early desexing in these cases and it's a matter of weighing up the chances of the dog being bred from in the future (high), vs the chances of the dog having some spey-related growth or health issues later in life (low).

I worked in a RSPCA shelter for 10 years and it was only in the last year or so that I worked there that early desexing came in. Before that they were given a voucher, for dogs (and cats) over 6 months the dog had to be desexed within one month, for pups ( and kittens) the voucher had 6 months on it. Compliance was at nearly 100%, there was the very odd one that went over the time but they were rare and there was maybe one or two that didn't in the ten years I worked there. And when I say didn't at all, I mean the voucher was not presented.

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

[kelpiekaye]

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

May have something to do with been put under anaesthesia so young, Im only guessing though

[Alyosha]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

I agree wholeheartedly. But the other side of the coin is the lack of ability the average pet owner has to keep a bitch in season safely contained, or a really keen dog from escaping to get to a bitch in season. Which on the whole is going to be nil, or as close to it (on average) as is practical. DOgs and bitches that really want to breed can outwit the most experienced people on occasion, so having them around can be a big undertaking.

So I can see the point of pushing for early desexing as well as the potential downsides for individual dogs.

[rose of tralee]

No to the litter. That does belong in unreasoning times.

I support allowing one season, and allowing adequate time for the oestrus hormones to lower before surgery. It's not necessary to dash in as soon as the signs of the season subside, assuming the girl has been kept safe. And that isn't difficult, with planning and 100% care and attention.

[jackie_a1]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

[Swizzlestick]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I think she meant even the cross breeds from the pound deserve the chance. (Becuase the majority are cross breeds).

That's the way I read it anyway.

[caffiend42]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I take it to mean that in the overall scheme of things, priority and precedence should be given towards purebred, registered animals over byb animals and pound dogs. I would not condone ANY dog or cat be released from a pound undesexed. End of story. The bone growth has to be a secondary consideration. Yes, large pound animals do deserve a chance to grow correctly, but not at the risk of them having the ability to reproduce upon release/adoption, that would be grossly irresponsible and not under the ethos of "rescue".

[aussielover]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I took it to mean even animals that don't have an owner to decide whats best for them.

Though I would rather see them desexed young, than end up in the hands of a BYB or puppy farmer, or as a fighting dog. It would be interesting to see a long term study on the effects of early desexing.

[Boxerheart]

With the RSPCA and animal welfare pushing to desex baby puppies ie from 8 weeks, they are encouraging abnormal growth and potential developmental problems in the older dog.

I can see their point very clearly. The vast majority of dogs sold are not, or should not be bred from. Most of them going through shelters and pounds are mutts, and an incorrect growth rate on them won't matter much (it's not like you know what they'll grow up to look like), and is in fact much less of a worry than the very high chance of them having a litter of more mutts.

And any breeds in danger of ending up as breeding fodder in puppy farms.......poodles, maltese, pugs, shih-tzu, bichons etc, are probably best desexed before being sold unless the breeder is 110% certain of the puppies future.

I can completely understand early desexing in these cases and it's a matter of weighing up the chances of the dog being bred from in the future (high), vs the chances of the dog having some spey-related growth or health issues later in life (low).

But my point as a breeder is that the RSPCA can then double dip in that when these early desexed dogs develop joint problems the finger of welfare is waving at us.."tho hast bred a dog with joint problems, time to ban the pure breeds" And then they are also on about cruelty..but they push for early desexing.

I will point out this is not the cause of all joint problems but it would certainly factor in.

Sorry GayleK..can't agree with you..can't be bothered arguing with you either.

[Boxerheart]

Even pound animals deserve a chance to grow correctly.

Hard to convey your tone but what do you mean EVEN pound animals?

I take it to mean that in the overall scheme of things, priority and precedence should be given towards purebred, registered animals over byb animals and pound dogs. I would not condone ANY dog or cat be released from a pound undesexed. End of story. The bone growth has to be a secondary consideration. Yes, large pound animals do deserve a chance to grow correctly, but not at the risk of them having the ability to reproduce upon release/adoption, that would be grossly irresponsible and not under the ethos of "rescue".

Yes I agree with this statement on cats. These breed prolifically and often are not contained in yards etc

[Gayle.]

Dog that are desexed young tend to be taller rather than shorter. They can also be more lanky and gangly looking as they never fill out properly.

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning.

Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early.

[Boxerheart]

Dog that are desexed young tend to be taller rather than shorter. They can also be more lanky and gangly looking as they never fill out properly.

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning.

Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early.

This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further.

[aussielover]

Dog that are desexed young tend to be taller rather than shorter. They can also be more lanky and gangly looking as they never fill out properly.

I don't think mental problems would have anything to do with early desexing.

I have got 2 neuters, both desexed early. Benson was done at around 4 1/2 months, he is now 4 years old and is not gangly at all. In fact he is very much in proportion and an excellent example of his breed. The only difference to an entire (besides the obvious) is that he did not grow the big ruff of hair around the neck/chest area that an entire dog does. But his head has developed as a distinctly male head (in a breed where male and female heads are very different), he has the broad shoulders and chest of a male and he also has the heavier boning.

Shae was desexed prior to being sold as a baby. She is 5 years old and the breeder does this without exception to any puppy being sold as a pet. She is very small, very much in proportion and definitely not lanky. She has an extremely pretty, feminine head and although she's not show quality, she does not look "wrong" for having been desexed early.

This does not amount to any sort of scientific evidence. You are being subjective (which means it is only your opinion). You cannot at a glance see through to bone and cartilage, and you will never know what they would have been if left to mature normally. There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further.

I think gayle was just responding to my comment where I said generally early desexing leads to taller animals with lanky body types. Of course this is not always the case, and can be more noticeable in stocky breeds such as labradors and staffordshires.

[Staranais]

There is enough qualified evidence to prove the risks of early desexing. I need point this out no further.

Can I please ask for references as to these risks? The only risk of early desexing I have seen conclusively proved is increased risk of spey incontinence in female dogs.

ETA, obviously male mammals neutered before puberty also do have some tendency to end up slightly lankier than males neutered afterwards, however by "risk" you seem to be implying something a little more sinister than that?

Edited March 27, 2011 by Staranais