Aggressive Play?

[Naomi]

Over the last couple of days Archie seems to be a bit aggressive in play? It's my first pup so I'm not sure if it is normal play biting or aggressive biting.

It's really unsettling because I feel like I'm failing as a dog owner, because I don't know what's causing it and it seems what ever I try seems to aggravate it.

If we are walking around he will jump at our legs and wrap his paws around our legs while teething our trousers. Usually he barks or growls as well.

Is this a herding instinct thing? If I say "no" it makes him more hyped up and nippy. If I ignore him he still nips at the back of my leg anyway.

He has been fine up until now. I'm really unsure what to do. I've been rewarding him when he does the good things. When he plays with his own toys I give him heaps of attention and praise. If he gets nippy at our hands I usually redirect to a toy as well.

[dandybrush]

do you use time outs? i would suggest that when he does this behaviour to plop him in his crate to settle in a short time out..when he does it again, straight bak in the crate. also keep doing what you are doing, rewarding the good behaviours he will learn eventually, you have to outpersist him, i learned persistance with my pup, working dogs are very persistant, if he does it 10 times, just crate him 10 times, dont give up

im sure there are going to be many diff options from pple, thats just what i would try myself, good luck

Edited March 24, 2011 by dandybrush

[Naomi]

I wasn't keen on using the crate. In case he saw the crate as a punishment instead of his safe place?

Maybe popping him in a different room for a bit until he settles?

[dandybrush]

before i had a crate raz had time outs in the bathroom...just be prepared for scratched doors...if i had the crate i would have used it, but i see your point, maybe tie his leash up to something and make that the naughty corner?

[aussielover]

I wasn't keen on using the crate. In case he saw the crate as a punishment instead of his safe place?

Maybe popping him in a different room for a bit until he settles?

What does he think of the crate? If he is happy and relaxed in it currently, there should be no problem with using it, in fact it should help settle him quicker as he knows that it is a quiet place.

The biting and nipping is completely normal, possibly a bit of herding instict, but then, my labrador puppy also did the same thing, so its not necessarily that. Puppies like to bite things

[luvsdogs]

Have a read of this, it may help.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/raising-puppy

[koalathebear]

Hi Naomi

I feel your pain. As aussielover has pointed out, it's pretty normal behaviour. One of the threads I'm contacted most about is this thread in which I described our frustration when an 11 week old Elbie was constantly attacking our ankles/jeans. He was such a cute little pup but we'd be in the yard, we'd move and you'd almost see a light bulb go off above his head as he decided to go into biting little monster mode It felt like it would never end (it actually only lasted a few weeks though it felt like forever).

Some people said we should seek a behaviourist but it actually was very normal behaviour given his breed mix and he grew out of it with guidance. Different things work for different people - Elbie was very stimulated by movement, bright red towels ... For a while we couldn't even shake out a garbage bag without him going bonkers. These days we can wave a towel or a bag around his head and he wouldn't bat an eyelash Just have patience, try to find out the method that works for you out of the very long list of possible options and stick to that one. Thankfully Hoover wasn't mouthy at all although when we got him we were psychologically prepared for another bitey pup.

As to time-outs, we've tried various things. We've put them out into the yard, tethered them somewhere for a few minutes - in the end what works for us is to put them in the bathroom for a few minutes. To be honest, we also put them in their crates sometimes - not so much for punishment, but just to give them time to settle and quieten down. For our two it doesn't seem to have impaired their love of their crates but I wouldn't recommend it for Archie given everything is still so new for him. Good luck

[RallyValley]

Toby was like this! I had holes in my pants/legs/shoes/hands his teeth were so sharp! He is of mixed origin like Elbie and now he is the sweetest dog with people and has very good bite inhibition! I remember at one stage crying the first few days as I was lying on the grass with Toby studying and he would come up - grab my hand- run off and bite a stick/sprinkler/bug/my older dog come flying back and bite me a few more times and then fly off again.

He is now overly laid back! He won't get out of bed before 8.30am without glaring at you!

[dancinbcs]

Herding breeds all like to grab moving human feet if you let them. I discourage it from about 4 weeks the same as their mother would. I grab them lightly by the scruff and growl. Immediately they let go I praise with a soothing tone of voice. It usually only takes a few times before they catch on that it is simply not allowed and none of my puppies are grabbing feet by the time they leave me. It is a very dangerous thing for them to do as they can easily trip someone and then have the person fall on them, so it is one thing I never let them get away with.

[koalathebear]

RallyVally: I wasn't quite crying over the biting but it was sooooooooooooooo frustrating.

It was hilarious because when we were getting Hoover, I asked his breeder:"So is Hoover mouthy?" She sounded extremely surprised and said: "No, he doesn't like mouthing." I assumed that maybe he might become mouthy for a period but he never did ... I really, really sympathise with people with mouthy puppies because when we had Elbie, I was all: "Oh gosh you're so little and cute, I want to cuddle you but you keep attacking me!!!"

[Naomi]

Thankyou for all your replies! They are really helpful. I assumed he will grow out of it. But being my first puppy, I felt like I was doing something wrong. It's nice to know it has happened to others. Misery loves company right?

I think for now I am going to use time outs in a different room, and reinforce the crate as a positive experience. I don't think he feels crate the crate is his 'home' just yet so I will avoid that for time out areas for the mean time.

He was at it again this morning so I put him into a time out in the laundry and waited until he had stopped crying. Once I let him out I ignored him for a further few minutes to make sure he was still calm (which he was) and then gave him gentle words and gentle pats for being good.

Since then he looks as if he was going to start up again a couple of times but I said "uh-uh" which he understands well (but sometimes he chooses to ignore), but this time he didn't ignore the "uh-uh" and he left my legs alone.

KTB - I've read through the thread and it really echos my situation!! Here I was feeling like it was the first person it had ever happened to. Your thread has been really helpful! How long before Elbie stopped the behavior? Just to be clear when you say "wouldn't recommend it for Archie given everything is still so new for him" do you mean the crate time outs, or time outs in general? It's funny you should say that Hoover isn't mouthy. When we picked out Archie he wasn't mouthy at all compared to the other pups. Just a late bloomer I guess.

RallyValley - Last night the behavior got me upset to because I felt like I had tried everything. I was feeling like it was out of my control. Like KTB said, I just want cuddles but I felt like Archie hates me. I admit I was being overly emotional about the situation and I know that you can't train a dog with that attitude. But I had a very bad week and day, and I think Archie's behavior was just the tip of the iceberg (or is it the icing on the cake?) for me.

[koalathebear]

How long before Elbie stopped the behavior?

Hi Naomi. He started at just under 11 weeks which was I first posted. At 13 weeks he was still mouthing and some people were saying seek professional help. By 14 weeks he was much better and then by 17 weeks he had stopped the attacking/mouthing completely although for a while he was still stimulated by blankets/towels and plastic bags – this is now no longer a problem. For instance, these days when we run – Elbie doesn't nip at excitedly at our heels, he runs beside us in the heel position looking up. He also no longer attacks his leash.

I think if we had known what we know now, we could probably have stopped him doing it much sooner. For Elbie, he's very eager to please. Our problem was making him understand that it wasn't a game and that what he was doing was incorrect. Once he understood that, he stopped – it's just that a lot of the things that work for other people (stopping/time outs/yelping/holding snout etc) didn't work for us.

Just to be clear when you say "wouldn't recommend it for Archie given everything is still so new for him" do you mean the crate time outs, or time outs in general?

I wouldn't recommend using the crate as punishment. Archie's still very young and new and you're still really trying to entrench in his mind that the crate is a good place. We never used the crates as punishment for the dogs when we first got them and they have grown to LOVE their crates and chill out in them when they're relaxing. These days if we think they're being overly boisterous we will crate them to calm them down. You might be able to do that with Archie down the track. I think time-outs in general are fine for Archie.

It's funny you should say that Hoover isn't mouthy. When we picked out Archie he wasn't mouthy at all compared to the other pups. Just a late bloomer I guess.

We got Elbie at 8 weeks and he was a 'free to a good home' puppy with unknown parentage so he no one had any idea if he was going to be mouthy. Hoover on the other hand was from a WKC-registered breeder and he was already 3 months old whenwe got him so the personalities of the litter had very much emerged and the breeder was able to describe Hoover in a lot of detail to us. For instance, there were two other pups that were scrappier and always wrestling and play-fighting and Hoover would sit back and watch. I suspect Archie's personality wasn't entirely discernable when you got him because he was still so wee

Try not to stress too much about it and just focus on finding the technique that lets Archie know that mouthing is not acceptable. Aussies are smart so once he understands you, he'll stop. When Elbie was mouthy, we couldn't even hold him in our laps without him attacking our sleeves and so we always had to have a toy to distract him. This has become so ingrained in him that when he gets invited into OH's lap these days, Elbie looks around for a toy to bring up there with him even though he no longer mouths

[RallyValley]

I have to admit I got so upset because I was studying for a Uni test and the puppy was my responsibility... and I felt like he would never sleep!

I can't offer a solution though, the next week he broke his leg and I just had a sore sooky cuddly pup in a cast.

[koalathebear]

I have to admit I got so upset because I was studying for a Uni test and the puppy was my responsibility... and I felt like he would never sleep!

I can't offer a solution though, the next week he broke his leg and I just had a sore sooky cuddly pup in a cast.

Poor you! Also, I am in fear of the General Forum but I have to disagree with you about Puppy Toby. He was very, VERY cute

[wuffles]

No advice here but Naomi... nearly everyone I know has had at least one "OMG WHAT HAVE I DONE" moment when they've got a dog In fact, I did with both my dogs. When we got Satch he dug heaps of holes which upset me (now I don't care) and when we got Ava she was a little livewire who never slept

This must be one of the reasons puppies are cute. So we don't kill them

[RallyValley]

I have to admit I got so upset because I was studying for a Uni test and the puppy was my responsibility... and I felt like he would never sleep!

I can't offer a solution though, the next week he broke his leg and I just had a sore sooky cuddly pup in a cast.

Poor you! Also, I am in fear of the General Forum but I have to disagree with you about Puppy Toby. He was very, VERY cute

Sorry to go offtopic naomi but...

This is how Toby stopped.... (not recomended method ) (KTB I do think he looks cute here)

[Naomi]

Hi Naomi. He started at just under 11 weeks which was I first posted. At 13 weeks he was still mouthing and some people were saying seek professional help. By 14 weeks he was much better and then by 17 weeks he had stopped the attacking/mouthing completely...

So you ended up using a water spray bottle? Where you using this just for when he was nipping at your legs or for when he was being naughty in general. I prefer the redirection idea but then it doesn't seem that the pup learns that the previous behavior was wrong, even though you have redirected to a better behavior. Was it between the 14 - 17 week mark you used the spray bottle?

I wouldn't recommend using the crate as punishment. Archie's still very young and new and you're still really trying to entrench in his mind that the crate is a good place.

No I'm steering clear of using the crate for time outs. The crate is currently used to feed dinner in treat dispensers and for sleeping. Although I'm going to purchase 'Crate Games' over the weekend so I can start some full on crate training with Archie over the next few weeks. He tolerates the crate at the moment which is practical enough. But I want him to really love it.

When Elbie was mouthy, we couldn't even hold him in our laps without him attacking our sleeves and so we always had to have a toy to distract him.

Haha. Archie is like this too at the moment. I always have a toy. I also have this puppy bitter stuff I spray on my hands but it doesn't seem to worry Archie.

I can't offer a solution though, the next week he broke his leg and I just had a sore sooky cuddly pup in a cast.

Oh dear. Don't think I'll be using that method in a hurry. ;) But he really was a cute puppy!!

No advice here but Naomi... nearly everyone I know has had at least one "OMG WHAT HAVE I DONE" moment when they've got a dog :D In fact, I did with both my dogs. When we got Satch he dug heaps of holes which upset me (now I don't care) and when we got Ava she was a little livewire who never slept

This must be one of the reasons puppies are cute. So we don't kill them

Archie is a livewire too. But I expected this in an Aussie. Funnily enough, the only thing Archie won't do is dig. I feel a lot better about handling him now. I remembered my brothers Labrador was the same as Archie when he was a puppy. Now he is the friendliest adult Labrador I have met. Just gotta be consistent with what I'm doing I guess. I love my pup, but now after having my first pup I can see why people would opt to adopt an adult dog. You really have to have a lot of time and dedication for them.

[betsy]

Hi Naomi!

Sounds like your Aussie pup is normal. I'm sure you would be able to ask things in the Aussie thread too - I have found it is quite friendly. Maybe even ask the breeder or if you have a good trainer at puppy school? (I emailed my breeder alot and phoned a few times in the first few months, it really was good to have the support)

I remember having to make an "eek" sound when Ziggy bit my hands, and re-directing onto toys. Ziggy also had the chasing trouser thing happening too (but not as much as Elbie - I remember reading the thread at the time!) . I think if you are consistent in your displeasure/timeout/etc, then with a short period of time it will be better. Remember - you DO have more persistence than a puppy! Unfortunately this method does not work for cats.

BTW, I thought Ziggy was also a bit of a live wire puppy. But I enjoy his boisterous nature and sheer enthusiasm. I have noticed that in the recent weeks he is becoming much more focused and he is a pleasure at training now.

[Naomi]

Thanks Betsy! The 'eek' noise with Archie seems to hype him up more. I've found that he has improved lately. Most of his chewing is directed at toys because I give him lots of attention/praise whenever he chooses to play with them.

Haha. Cats are a whole different matter. And likewise, I really enjoy Archie's go-go-go personality. I'm keen to do some sort of obedience training and I know that this boisterous nature will come in handy with that. I introduced him to a frisbee today. I threw it small distances and he was even bringing it back for me. Could be a possible future activity for when he is older. I always loved watching the athletic breeds catch the frisbees on youtube.

[W Sibs]

I use to have a toy around and distract her with it, but if she got too much.. I scruffed her. Hold her up (support her back and lower back) but the scruff and hold her up there till she calms down (which usually takes more than 10 seconds) put her down and just walk away. Had to do this 3 time (different occassion) and she never done it again.