Teaching 2on 2 Off With Clicker

[megan_]

I want to teach my boy "two on two off" and to hold it until I give him the release word. I also want to use the clicker to do this.

He is doing it very well but I'm running into trouble because I have also taught him that a click is also a release (he no longer needs to hold position and can relax and get his treat). This has worked well for us and I want to continue with this method.

The problem is that, at the new agility club that I train at, click doesn't mean release.

So, how do I mark the position, but get him to hold it until I tell him "free"? I can't be the only person who uses the clicker as a release too!

My current line of thinking is:

Step 1: Click the position, he releases and gets a treat. He is already doing this consistently.

Step 2: Get him to hold the position for a few seconds before I click.

Step 3: Add the queue when he's got it nailed

Step 4: Get him to hold the position, then say "play" (my release word) and don't use the clicker any more.

Thoughts?

[Vickie]

I wouldn't use the clicker for 2o2o other than in the VERY early stages to teach position (and even then I don't).

[megan_]

How would you teach it?

[Kavik]

Are you using a target?

[megan_]

yes - a ground target that he targets with his paw

[fuzzy82]

If you reward quickly enough, the dog won't move out of position. You can also teach the dog that despite being clicked, it should hold position. The clicker does normally end the behaviour and there is nothing wrong with that, but you can still have the dog remain in position, and just keep feeding treats while the dog is in position.

Another way to do it is to not use a clicker (especially if the dog now knows what to do) and just keep rewarding while the dog is in position, then use a verbal release.

[The Spotted Devil]

I'll leave it to the experts to say what you should do but I do a nose target on the floor - it's easier to get a weight shift forward and define the criteria i.e. 2 back paws on the plank, 2 front paws on the ground and nose to the ground. I only clicked to get strong/multiple nose touches (hand initially, then target in hand and then target on ground). Once he started offering the nose touch in position I reinforced in position - then also called off to a handling skill and rewarded. Some dogs get stuck on the contacts because they are so heavily rewarded.

[megan_]

I'll give that a go. I would like to keep "click means the end of the behaviour" so that I don't muddy the waters. The instructor looked at me like I was crazy when I said that the click is the end of the exercise.

[megan_]

I'll leave it to the experts to say what you should do but I do a nose target on the floor - it's easier to get a weight shift forward and define the criteria i.e. 2 back paws on the plank, 2 front paws on the ground and nose to the ground. I only clicked to get strong/multiple nose touches (hand initially, then target in hand and then target on ground). Once he started offering the nose touch in position I reinforced in position - then also called off to a handling skill and rewarded. Some dogs get stuck on the contacts because they are so heavily rewarded.

thanks. When/how did you introduce your release word?

Sorry for asking the dumb questions, I just like to know the entire exercise and break it down before I start.

[The Spotted Devil]

I'll leave it to the experts to say what you should do but I do a nose target on the floor - it's easier to get a weight shift forward and define the criteria i.e. 2 back paws on the plank, 2 front paws on the ground and nose to the ground. I only clicked to get strong/multiple nose touches (hand initially, then target in hand and then target on ground). Once he started offering the nose touch in position I reinforced in position - then also called off to a handling skill and rewarded. Some dogs get stuck on the contacts because they are so heavily rewarded.

thanks. When/how did you introduce your release word?

Sorry for asking the dumb questions, I just like to know the entire exercise and break it down before I start.

I don't think they are dumb questions at all! I use the release word a lot - it's always part of everything I teach at every stage as I don't like my dogs to choose when to switch off. And my Dally likes to switch off

[Kavik]

I also taught a paw target. I have retaught it as I didn't get what I wanted at first (I wanted a pounce with both front feet hitting the target at the same time). I use a piece of green matting. I initially used a voice marker 'yes' but now don't. I got the idea from Ali Roukas's running contacts DVD. If you give multiple rewards in position that should help with duration. I then use a release command to leave 2o2o position (I want him focussing forward for this, not looking at me, which has also been a problem with this exercise).

For me the big improvement has been when I went back to basics on my travel plank with him standing 4on on the board at the end. Using a restrained send at first (holding his collar then releasing from side) or restraining from front (this was easier at first) to get the enthusiasm, speed and position I wanted. Then adding a cue when this was reliable (only when he always gave me the pounce I wanted), then the more difficult having him stand on the end and give me the pounce on cue when I am not restraining him. Then I faded the target.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Kavik

[kelpiechick]

Not commenting on 'click ends behaviour' training as that's a whole other thread in itself but from an agility training point of view it's not how I use the clicker. So I can understand the look from the instructor. But I understand you've trained what you've trained and don't want to change it.

Biggest problem I can see is that you will now need to condition another release cue for your contacts which might become confusing for your dog. You need a verbal cue to release dog off contact as obviously you can't use clicker in ring. I would be trying to phase the clicker out now and using a verbal bridge instead so you can start using a verbal release as well - the last thing you want is a dog that won't come off the contact until he hears a click.

Are you on actual contact equipment? Personally I teach the 'stay in position and release' on a travel board before I ever put it on equipment. That way I can fade any targets I might be using before the dog runs over equipment so it is not becoming a lure.

[corvus]

Maybe you could use an intermediate bridge, or "keep going" signal.

[megan_]

kelpiechick - we aren't on equipment yet. We're on a little board.

He knows his release command and follows it really well - I don't use the clicker for anything but free shaping (up until now) so it hasn't been a problem.

The thing is he hears the click then bounces up for a treat. I could shovel food in this mouth to hold the position, but how will he know that that is the desired behaviour? I was trying to use the clicker because he really gets it and looooves working with it. It makes him think and he knows he has to think to earn a click.

Maybe I need to look at his targeting behavoiur - he only touches it for a second. It is a clear, strong touch but he doesn't hold it for long. He'll only get a click if he holds the position for a few seconds, and I can use "good boy" - he understands that as a bridging word. When this is working I can then throw in the release word before the behaviour ends, fading out the clicker then and there.

I hope I'm making sense!

[Kavik]

I put the food on the target (on the ground) as I want him focussing down and not looking at me. I would start with his duration of the targeting behaviour.

[Staff'n'Toller]

I would do as Kavik says, throw your food in between his feet, continuously at first then release. Then later you can slow down your rate of food throws.

You can start a release word with Sit, Click, Treat, Treat, Treat, Treat, OK!. He will pick it up very quickly.

When you think about it, your click is marking in the learning phase so if you are getting nose touches you can just throw food for each nose touch now and release when ready.

I was having soooo much trouble with 2o2o, I mean obviously it's the trainer! We were getting multiple nose touches but from training session to training session it just wasn't sticking in his brain. I got a copy of 2o2o it doesn't use a target as such but it does break the behaviour right down for you. I will teach all mine this way from now on.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller