Dog Trainer And Job Availability

[Cosmolo]

Why do you need to know about different tools? Because one day you might just come across a dog that required a technique different to your preferences.

It is worth careful consideration with regards to the job opportunities though- its not an industry where you're likely to walk into a job immediately afterwards AND the first few jobs you have in the industry are not likely to be extremely profitable. If its your passion that you absolutely 100% want as a career though, or if you just want to improve your skills to train part time or as a hobby- its worth it.

[corvus]

That's right, I am doing it distance learning even though I am in Brisbane. You need to attend two block training things, one week each.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I think you are right that I shouldn't bring my own dogs to training, for the sake of getting more experience.

As for using a check chain, why do I need to learn how to use one? Once I become a trainer, I would do clicker training or reward based training without a clicker. It's what I do with my dogs. I know how a check chain works, I know how punishment works, I have read enough books about the learning theory behind it that I know how it works, I don't see why I need to do it to someone's dog in training when I never intend to use it. There are dog trainer courses in Usa that don't teach punishment at all, so obviously it's not something you NEED to know.

I am now a bit apprehensive about doing the course. Not because of the punishment thing, but because it seems there isn't a lot of job opportunity once I have finished it. Even if I start my own business there is a lot of competition. I'm not gonna spend $3400 on something that will never be more than hobby. I'd still really love to do it because I am interested in it, but I want to ultimately end up making money. I don't have thousands to spend on a hobby....

At the risk of starting a Karen Pryor dissatisfaction pow-wow, have you thought about learning through Karen Pryor Academy? I think KPA are teaching in Australia this year. It's definitely a heftier outlay, but maybe it would suit you better than NDTF and give you something by which to differentiate yourself in the market place? You would probably have to travel, though.

[fuzzy82]

I was looking at KP's course online, and would love to do it, but I can't find any info on one in Australia (a link would be appreciated if you have one). There is a distance learning option, but I would need to travel to the workshops and I'm assuming they are all in Usa, which rules that out, plus the course is $5500, as opposed to $3400 for the NDTF.

I don't mind travelling within Australia, but can't afford to travel to Usa for it.

But yeah, would love to do that one.

I have decided to do the NDTF after all (unless someone can provide a link to the KP one in Australia, that would be my preference) because I was telling hubby about my issues with it last night and he basically talked me into it, he pointed out that it's something I would enjoy so it doesn't matter if it doesn't make me rich.

[Staranais]

You may find that after learning how to use a check chain from a teacher, you find some use for the knowledge. It seems to me to be a little premature to decide you'll never use one before attending the course, and after only training two dogs.

However, if you really don't want to participate in all the components of the course, I'd say find a different course that caters to your own preferences. I have heard that Delta run a positive only type course?

[petmezz]

enjoy it and have fun training your dogs

[corvus]

I was looking at KP's course online, and would love to do it, but I can't find any info on one in Australia (a link would be appreciated if you have one). There is a distance learning option, but I would need to travel to the workshops and I'm assuming they are all in Usa, which rules that out, plus the course is $5500, as opposed to $3400 for the NDTF.

In December last year there was information on the KPA website under the Australia section about a course in the first half of this year, if I remember correctly. The info has now been taken down, so I'm not sure if it's currently underway and there are no plans for another one or if it got cancelled. Anyway, going off my shady memory of it, Terry Ryan was doing the workshops in Perth, I think. You could always contact them and ask.

[petmezz]

Hi Erny

i just don't particularly like the method, i have used it with cretin dogs and they have responded well to it, very fast learning on behalf of the dog, i just can't seem to get my own emotions around what i'm doing to the dog, it gets the results, usually the client has no problem with it i would just prefer to use a more positive reinforcement my personal preference. however my clients want quick see able training and it is extremely useful when you can't build drive in a dog because the owners are at their wits end and are about to dump the dog in a pound.

i use all of the quodrients when needed.

i'm not training assistance dogs, that have to do something regardless as someone’s life depends on the dog doing the activity, most people i deal with want a dog that 90% of the time dose what it is told.

Yep my emotions get in the way

at NDTF you will need to use a check chain at some point, this course is so good because they teach all quadrants of reinforcement and punishment +R -R (i really really hate -R)

How come, Petmezz? . Are you basing your opinion on the video footage example they gave (back in my day ..... many many years ago, they used video footage of the ear pinch method of training to hold a dumbbell) - I distinctly remember gasping when I watched it back then, and remember talking with the other of my class members and saying I didn't like that method either. It was further down the track that I got to realise how well Negative Reinforcement can work, but that it doesn't have to be the same as that of an ear pinch. (To be fair, we were told that by NDTF at the time also, but initially I couldn't imagine anything else.)

Thing is now I see excellent work with excellent results in the use of the e-collar utilising low stimulation. No impact on muscular/skeletal as you would with any other training tool; low stress when done properly; ..... and I could go on.

This isn't about the e-collar - I only bring that up because that's where I would use the negative reinforcement training methodology the most and so I use it as an example.

I also don't mean to challenge : it is the prerogative of anyone to make choices about what training method they like, don't like, will or won't use. But I am genuinely interested to know why you "hate" negative reinforcement style learning.

[Kavik]

Hi petmezz,

Don't worry, I don't like -R either

[Miranda]

fuzzy82 I think that the Delta course would suit you better.

[Rottifan]

I am starting a Cert III in Dog training in a few months, which is something I have always been interested in and wanted to do.

Just wondering what the job availability is for training drug detection dogs, assistance dogs and that sort of thing? I could always do one-on-one in-home training and do obedience classes etc, but ideally I would like to train drug or assistance dogs, or something along those lines. Guide dogs are also an option, but not really a fan of using check chains so that wouldn't be the ideal job.

Does anyone know?

Apply for the general entry positions for AFP, Queensland Police Service, Australian Customs Service, Australian Quarantine Service and the like. After being in the organisation for a couple of years (and you can help out the dog unit during that time while you perform general duties) then you will be in a better position to apply for a dog handler/trainer job. Mostly these jobs are advertised internally so this is the only way. Whether advertised internally or externally the dog training and animal handling courses mean NOTHING in the organisation. Its about using the dog as a tool to detect whatever the organisation is training them to find.

Pretty hard to source the target odours to train a drug dog etc in the private industry unless you can get large quantities of cocaine, heroine, ice, speed, cannabis, ecstacy etc to actually train the dog to associate the food/play reward with and then train them to find same in the environment that the dog will be deployed in.

Good luck, it is great fun when you get the job!

[corvus]

i just don't particularly like the method, i have used it with cretin dogs and they have responded well to it, very fast learning on behalf of the dog, i just can't seem to get my own emotions around what i'm doing to the dog, it gets the results, usually the client has no problem with it i would just prefer to use a more positive reinforcement my personal preference.

R- doesn't have to be a bludgeoning for it to be effective. I think there are benefits in applying it very lightly and if you're careful the net feeling for the dog is more positive than negative IMO. R- can be as subtle as a vague feeling of pressure that when relieved leaves, well, a sense of relief. That sense of relief can be surprisingly powerful. If a dog is kept under threshold while they are worked in that fashion it mimics the way they learn from the environment and is not IMO particularly stressful. Of course, if you screw it up it can be horribly stressful, but if you make a judgment call and then add a nice big buffer for things like trigger stacking and in case your judgment call was a bit ambitious, then the dog is more protected. Personally, I think there are elements of R- in R+ training, but sometimes I'm not very conventional in how I interpret behaviour.

[Erny]

Much -R is used in the fine riding of horses and the results of it is especially noticeable to even the uninitiated in the dressage arena. We 'talk' to our horse through even the most faint shift of our weight, the lightest tension from our legs.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Erny

[sandgrubber]

I've hosted two wanna-be dog trainers in a boarding kennel that wanted to offer training.

It's been a sad experience.

Both trainers were great with dogs . . . with limitations.

Neither was good at communicating with owners, unfortunately, at least as important as dog handling skills.

I am willing to believe there are some good and some great trainers/behaviourists. But survival requires a combination of dog skills, dealing with dog owner skills, and marketing/business skills that is pretty unusual.

As a 'consumer', I don't think I'm impressed with NDTF certs . . . or German qualifications of trainer to Schutz.

The sad fact about dog training is that it's mostly owner training, and requires considerable business skill. A few people manage to build up a following and keep busy classes, with private consults on the side. The majority of wanna-be's go nowhere cause their skills in dealing with dog owners and business aren't up to their skill in dealing with dogs.

And then there's the secondary problem that dog needs are highly diverse, and human attitudes/temperament/judgement is important. The NDTF IV trainer I worked with, as a kennel helper, twice allowed contact between dogs that resulted in significant injury (a SWF was nearly killed and required thousands of dollars of rehab, and a pedigree Labrador was attacked by a mastiff-X and lost an ear).

This got ugly, and I feel lucky to have had insurance and to have avoided lawsuits.

Bottom line . . . dog trainer requires a skill set that is unusual, and only a few succeed in the area. Those who succeed may not be the best with dogs . . . but they do know how to relate to clients and the social/legal/financial system. Not an easy business.

Unfortunately dog jobs are extremely competitive and a lot are not even that well paying even if you get one. And being self employed as a trainer comes with the usual risks of having your own business.

[fuzzy82]

We actually run a business from home, and it's rather successful, so I have business skills and experience in dealing with clients, so I'm not really worried about that bit.

As for -R, I agree that I would rather be using +R, but I have heaps more problems with +P than -R. -R could be a leash settle, which can hardly be considered harsh or stressful. It's just an extra incentive for the dog to get on the ground, and if done correctly it only takes a few seconds.

[newfsie]

Well I have just finished my second block in Melbourne, with my soft dog.....no-one made me put any equipment on her, she found it very tiring, but got over it in a day. And I found all the information I was given incredibly informative. I come from R+ and P- training, but I saw some methods used with the check chain, which were definitely something I will keep in my "tool-box".

I watched NDTF trainers working different dogs around the kennels, dogs that were there for training and I would have been happy had they been my dogs, if my dogs had needed training. Our golden rule there was for dogs never to have contact, everyone reiterated that every time. It would not matter which facility trained who, where. You will always be able to tell stories of good or bad examples.

I just wanted to learn more, because I had a problem dog in the past and because I now volunteer at out kennel Club. I think NDTF is a good starting point, a spring board to make you look even further and learn more.

I just have to get all those assessments out of the way

And you will get heaps of those Fuzzy, I have done 12 and still have a few to go LOL.......Plus I have to be a movie maker with a few takes

Good luck with your course, if you are open minded and willing to learn, you will get a lot out of it. I have never read so many books in 6 months as I have the last 6 months. they tell you you can get all the info out of the info given, but you also get a lot of suggestions on books that will blow your mind. I am loving it

[haven]

That's interesting, I've been a bit out of the dog training loop awhile now and hadn't heard that Karen Pryor was offering courses in Australia. Is it a nationally recognised qualification in this country?