Barkly - Time For A Program

[corvus]

Haha, I just got out Control Unleashed and am planning revisions and remedial training as well. We didn't actually get as far as trialling, though. Erik sounds quite similar to Barkly. He is also easily aroused, tends to over-react, is impulsive, and sometimes difficult to switch off. Okay, often difficult to switch off. He switches off when he runs out of energy and falls asleep. Sometimes he doesn't even get as far as lying down. He falls asleep in a sit.

Anyway, I digress. I'm starting with mat work and the Protocol for Relaxation. I never exposed him much to training classes as a puppy, so he needs lots of work learning to calm down around other dogs having fun. I am taking McDevitt's lessons about Premack to heart and introducing "you can go greet the dog if you first do something for me" at the dog park. Not the same thing every time, though! We already kind of do "Gimme a break".

Edited 'cause I was getting a little absorbed.

Edited March 26, 2011 by corvus

[Luke W]

Thanks Em.

Sometimes I feel like a bad owner

Hopefully you'll notice some subtle changes next time you see him.

[Erny]

Sometimes I feel like a bad owner

Lol .... I don't think that's possible.

[OSoSwift]

Luke you would have to be the polar opposite to a bad owner!!!!

Goodluck with your new endeavours

[poodlefan]

He gets 30-40 minutes 'off lead running around free' most days in addition to agility training (2-3 club sessions a week, plus small daily amounts at home). Honestly, it's probably not enough off-lead relaxing stuff.

If the offlead isn't "relaxing" him, then they may be counter productive.

If those runs are really building his adrenalin, then they may be part of the issue. It can take up to 72 hours for adrenalin to leave the system. In Barkly's case, he may never be getting rid of it.

Try a couple of days of focussed on lead walks and see what happens. Gaiting him off a bike would be good.

Bear in mind though that you are dealing with a 'busy' breed. What you're describing matches the few cockers I know. "Calm" is not a natural state it seems unless they are absolutely buggered.

Edited March 28, 2011 by poodlefan

[Jigsaw]

Actually you could even try not walking him for a few days. If he gets overstimulated on a walk it could cause more problems. He may keep trying to find that same buzz at home as on the off leash walk. As Poodlefan said focussed walks may help. Have you tried some nose work exercises to engage his more natural behaviours? My girl is pretty similar but I have now pretty much got an off switch inside the house, still working on one when I'm in the backyard though!

[corvus]

Actually you could even try not walking him for a few days. If he gets overstimulated on a walk it could cause more problems.

If Erik gets overstimulated on a walk it generally means he hasn't been walked for long enough, or hasn't had a chance to have a run. Not saying it would be the same for Barkly, but I guess having rearranged our lives to fit in a lot more exercise for our dogs, OH and I are in agreement that both dogs seem better for it. Even Kivi, who was showing no indication of needing more exercise or stimulation, is more playful, more cuddly, and more settled at home. If that's possible. He was very settled to begin with. Given our experiences, I'd try more exercise before I tried less. But, that's me! Exercise. Discipline. Affection. See, Luke, all you need to do is project calm assertiveness and Barkly will become calm as well. You don't have the right energy. You are giving the affection first! If you have the right energy, it will bring your dog balance.

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

Agreed with corvus, I think he'd do well with more exercise.

Have you considered going the Dunbar route to gain more focus from him? I.e. letting him run off lead, then call him over, do some sit-stay-stand etc with him for 10 seconds, then let him run free again. Try tiring his brain (?) out a bit so he is a bit more tired and relaxed at home.

That being said, he's definitely started acting differently. I can already see it.

[Luke W]

Exercise - yes - we could both do with a bit more

[corvus]

Leslie McDevitt has just started up the official CU yahoo group again, in preparation for the release of the puppy CU book. I want a CU class to go to. *pouts* I was reading about the way McDevitt gradually introduces sudden environmental changes to classes and knew a moment of the purest envy. Oh, it would be so sweet to be able to prepare for SECs rather than trying to manage after the fact. Think I might be stalking dog training classes in the near future.

[Vickie]

If the offlead isn't "relaxing" him, then they may be counter productive.

If those runs are really building his adrenalin, then they may be part of the issue. It can take up to 72 hours for adrenalin to leave the system. In Barkly's case, he may never be getting rid of it.

Try a couple of days of focussed on lead walks and see what happens. Gaiting him off a bike would be good

totally agree with the above!

I went through a stage with Noah when he was young where I was determined that increasing exercise would calm him down. It didn't, he got worse & worse. All I was doing was keeping him in a permanent state of adrenalin pumping chaos.

What worked was a couple of months of leash walking, in addition to our regular training at home & class.

now his greatest exercise is getting on & off the couch

Edited March 29, 2011 by Vickie

[Luke W]

OK - with lots of rewards for being relaxed at home - he's already starting to develop an off-switch.

Some of the things I'm doing (so far).

- Using the Premack principle to make being relaxed rewarding

- Transfering value from food to calm pats.

- Transfering value from food to "good boy"

- I've started on-lead walking.

- I'm giving him more stuff to relax at home on his mat with (chew toys, rawhide).

- Short bursts of tug followed by a quiet pat and a reward.

I think it's helping his home behavior.

AND...I actually tied him up outside a shop last night. And he was more chilled than he's ever been. Normally he would bark and cry for me to come back. He barked for about 1 second, then waited patiently!!! A small victory.

We did agility class on Monday night. I noticed an improvement there as well.

[poodlefan]

Susan Garratt makes an interesting point about self control - she says it needs to be learned and that dogs have to learn to tolerate and deal with boredom. Descriptions of Barkly here suggest to me that you've done a lot to enrich his life - no bad thing but I think you need to balance that sometimes with teaching him to chill out. I have a Cocker owning friend with a dog that sounds a lot like yours. He's her first dog since she retired and he simply isn't at all used to spending time without her and his self control in arousing situations is low.

I'm not a total advocate of all Ms Garratt says but I do think some of her crate games can be useful. I'm a great believer in requiring a dog to wait for reward (be that food or what it wants) and of building duration for such things.

In addition, I have noted that some of the dogs I see in agility classes that display high degrees of arousal to other dogs (and indeed generally) and low degrees of owner focus are primarily (and in some cases only) exercised by being taken to offlead parks. Regardless of how you view these places, my belief if that they need to be used in moderation and that other forms of exercise are important both physically and mentally to a dog. That is particularly the case where it comes to calm onlead behaviour and owner focus.

I'm also a believer that dogs tend to reflect their owner's emotional state. So (*prepare to faint folks and get the smelling salts for Corvus* ) I would pay some heed to Mr Milan's point about calm assertive behaviour making an impact on a dog - that sort of stuff really DOES flow down the lead.

But you know what Luke - you've recognised there's behaviour in your dog you're not happy with and you're doing something about it. That probably puts you in the top 10 percentile of "good dog owners".

Good on you.

Edited March 30, 2011 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

One more thing - chewing (I seem to have read somewhere) for a dog is a serotonin release trigger.

The more chewing he does, the calmer and happier he's likely to be.

If, over time, you became concerned about Barkly's arousal levels Luke, I'd be thinking about a thryoid test. However I don't think that's warranted atm.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I only realised a little while ago that I train all my dogs to "wait" and they are calm and wait until I come back to them no matter how long they are left. they never get bored and they usually lie down and sleep or watch the world go by.

Thing is I just realised that I was teaching them self control and how to manage boredom...who would've thunk.

All my dogs have been calm and go with the flow so IMO self control is really important as is delayed gratification ie TOT.

[corvus]

In addition, I have noted that some of the dogs I see in agility classes that display high degrees of arousal to other dogs (and indeed generally) and low degrees of owner focus are primarily (and in some cases only) exercised by being taken to offlead parks. Regardless of how you view these places, my belief if that they need to be used in moderation and that other forms of exercise are important both physically and mentally to a dog. That is particularly the case where it comes to calm onlead behaviour and owner focus.

Hmmmmm.... *darts looks this way and that and tries to look inconspicuous*

OH and I do the vast majority of our training in dog parks and dog beaches for various reasons. It is really frustrating sometimes. Honestly, I am not nearly hawk-eyed enough to do this successfully. I get caught up in training and don't see things that my dogs do. I've got some "look, sometimes we can work around other dogs and not need to greet them" training sessions planned away from the dog park. It's hard to find somewhere where dogs won't randomly come racing up to you, though. I gave up on that one long ago. The boys are not too bad. I can work them off leash around other dogs, but it's a wee bit unpredictable. One of the reasons I decided to do some CU foundation exercises was because I thought Erik and I would enjoy agility more if he wasn't getting distracted by what other dogs were doing.

I'm also a believer that dogs tend to reflect their owner's emotional state. So (*prepare to faint folks and get the smelling salts for Corvus* ) I would pay some heed to Mr Milan's point about calm assertive behaviour making an impact on a dog - that sort of stuff really DOES flow down the lead.

*snort* I just wish it were as easy as being calm and assertive. I have a training video where I break off a training session abruptly with Kivi to have a screaming match with the neighbours over the fence. Afterwards in the video, I look extremely upset and shaken and Kivi looks completely oblivious to the fact, bless him. Erik is a bit more sensitive, but I'm pretty calm and assertive by nature and it somehow doesn't result in a submissive dog. I feel cheated!

[Jigsaw]

If the offlead isn't "relaxing" him, then they may be counter productive.

If those runs are really building his adrenalin, then they may be part of the issue. It can take up to 72 hours for adrenalin to leave the system. In Barkly's case, he may never be getting rid of it.

Try a couple of days of focussed on lead walks and see what happens. Gaiting him off a bike would be good

totally agree with the above!

I went through a stage with Noah when he was young where I was determined that increasing exercise would calm him down. It didn't, he got worse & worse. All I was doing was keeping him in a permanent state of adrenalin pumping chaos.

What worked was a couple of months of leash walking, in addition to our regular training at home & class.

now his greatest exercise is getting on & off the couch

This is what I was sort of alluding to but did not express it very well. Exercise away from arousing circumstances. Walk on leash where the dog can have some down time to use their nose and away from areas that stimulate your dog. Which for my dog includes anywhere with water!

[poodlefan]

*snort* I just wish it were as easy as being calm and assertive. I have a training video where I break off a training session abruptly with Kivi to have a screaming match with the neighbours over the fence. Afterwards in the video, I look extremely upset and shaken and Kivi looks completely oblivious to the fact, bless him. Erik is a bit more sensitive, but I'm pretty calm and assertive by nature and it somehow doesn't result in a submissive dog. I feel cheated!

I don't think that being calm and assertive is a cureall. However, in my observation, a sensitive dog can be affected by its owner's emotional state to quite some degree. Watch a nervous owner in an obedience trial for some classic dog reactions - lagging and other displacement behaviours abound.

I really do believe that emotion runs down the lead. Owner attitudes to approaching dogs are one classic example where on lead aggression can be heightened by owner tension.

One of the reasons I decided to do some CU foundation exercises was because I thought Erik and I would enjoy agility more if he wasn't getting distracted by what other dogs were doing.

The dogs I have noted that display high degrees of focus on other dogs, rather than their owners, have largely had that behaviour reinforced by being allowed to run with other dogs in the dog parks, sometimes on a daily basis. If a dog's standard interaction with other dogs is highly arousing and largely involves unrestricted play, I don't think its surprising that in any group of dogs, that's the behaviour they wish to indulge in. I'd not equate a dog trained in such an environment to a dog allowed to do what it likes on each occasion..

Edited March 31, 2011 by poodlefan

[corvus]

I really do believe that emotion runs down the lead. Owner attitudes to approaching dogs are one classic example where on lead aggression can be heightened by owner tension.

Oh, I agree.

[huski]

I don't think that being calm and assertive is a cureall. However, in my observation, a sensitive dog can be affected by its owner's emotional state to quite some degree. Watch a nervous owner in an obedience trial for some classic dog reactions - lagging and other displacement behaviours abound.

I really do believe that emotion runs down the lead. Owner attitudes to approaching dogs are one classic example where on lead aggression can be heightened by owner tension.

110% agree with you PF. I experience much the same things with my dogs, it is obvious when I am handling them how they are affected by my nerves/anxiety etc.

The dogs I have noted that display high degrees of focus on other dogs, rather than their owners, have largely had that behaviour reinforced by being allowed to run with other dogs in the dog parks, sometimes on a daily basis. If a dog's standard interaction with other dogs is highly arousing and largely involves unrestricted play, I don't think its surprising that in any group of dogs, that's the behaviour they wish to indulge in. I'd not equate a dog trained in such an environment to a dog allowed to do what it likes on each occasion..

I totally agree again. I see this ALL the time at agility and obedience - the dogs that are the worst around other dogs are the ones whose owners regularly reinforce to them that other dogs have a super high value and are super fun to play with. I can almost guarantee that the dogs that go to the dog park etc to play with other dogs regularly have a harder time focusing than the dogs that don't play with a range of other dogs on a regular basis.