Shaping A Dog To Walk Backwards

[leopuppy04]

Do your dogs ever walk backwards on their own accord? If they don't I am not sure how you can shape it as they aren't ever going to offer it. You are going to have to influence it in some way.

I would spend some time watching them to see if they do ever walk backwards and see what it was that caused that. Maybe set that up and then click away.

Not walking backwards is probably a safety thing and sensible

this is what I was going to say.

I could never truely free shape my dogs to walk backwards (just as I couldn't truely shape them to come to basic heel position) because they never do that of their own accord (unless there is a physical blocker, and then it isn't free shaping).

They obht know the clicker (I only use it for free shaping, no luring at all) and they both offer all sorts of behaviours as soon as the clicker appears but it has never entered their heads to try walk backwards when there is no inpediment.

I agree to a point... you can free shape a behaviour which is natural to a dog - so any 'normal' position to a dog. But obviously it would be easier to shape a dog that walks backwards a lot than a dog that doesn't often walk backwards. Mine do back up of their own accord, but it's cued by me (as in they are in my space) or they are blocked. I don't want to teach it this way (difficult I am aren't I ).

It's just like trying to shape a great dane to beg - can be done but that would be a REALLY complex exercise rather than shaping a little pap that always jumps up for food to beg .

May i ask why you are shaping this with no cue to walk backwards when they can do so on heel? sounds like a lot of effort haha, you must have patience i bet! lol

Good luck !

Because I'm a crazy dog trainer who wants to improve her shaping skills, but also because I want my dogs to back up off one cue rather than me saying "back, back, back etc" to get them to back away from me . Different context also. A dog that backs up in heel understands heel position, I don't think they really understand 'backing up'

[With my method...the ONLY treat which is used as a lure is the first one, the rest are rewards for behaviour with regard to placement of reward ie. back between your legs. After teaching this to Bindi, it is the first behavior she will offer me when playing clicker games.

Yup - I knew what you meant

Edited March 23, 2011 by leopuppy04

[ness]

No help leopuppy but give your dog to Gina and give her a clicker and food and the dog won't stop offering backup .

Eeeek Ness still does it when she thinks she has half a chance of food and its been years since Gina shaped that pesky behavior . That's what you get for loaning your dog for a training demo at pet expo one year

Edited March 23, 2011 by ness

[Cosmolo]

I have started shaping back up with my dogs and while the JRT is super, the big dog with not great hind end awareness has also done okay although he is taking longer. I agree with Vickie re: throwing the food back between front legs. I have noticed that the dogs i have started shaping with using their bodies only (no objects for first handful of exercises) are better 'shapers' than those i started on objects too.

I don't think the dog has to do it naturally for you to be able to shape it. My JRT never barked and i shaped a bark and Dexter never walks backwards himself but is making progress with shaping.

[Lablover]

My five labradors offered back, while being "trained" (is that a wrong clicker word?) to wave, but they are trained traditionally, lured by bumpers.

I do not know guys and gals, Clever Hans and all that, if we looked behind us with the dog in front, could it be considered cheating?

[leopuppy04]

I have started shaping back up with my dogs and while the JRT is super, the big dog with not great hind end awareness has also done okay although he is taking longer. I agree with Vickie re: throwing the food back between front legs. I have noticed that the dogs i have started shaping with using their bodies only (no objects for first handful of exercises) are better 'shapers' than those i started on objects too.

I don't think the dog has to do it naturally for you to be able to shape it. My JRT never barked and i shaped a bark and Dexter never walks backwards himself but is making progress with shaping.

Completely agree!!

Can I ask what are some behaviours you shaped with their bodies and also what was one of the first you started with??

[Cosmolo]

Okay- i have 3 different dogs i shape with so this is a combined list of what i have done with all of them without any other object being involved- its not that much really, i do do a fair bit of object stuff..

Wave

Look over shoulder

spin

bow

bark

walk backwards

The first one i started with was looking over their shoulder and then progressed to spin or other object stuff. I think its great to use shaping to improve handling skills- it has definitely helped mine and i just LOVE watching the dog think and working out ways to shape different behaviours that the dog does not naturally offer.

Megan, i shaped Gilbert's heel as a puppy even though he never offered it, i can show you how next time i see you if you wanted to.

[Kelpie-i]

I'm currently perfecting my dog's marching...it's been a slow process (mainly due to my lack of time ) but we are definitely getting there. This was shaped from a wave. Next on the list is the backward walk. I went to see Carolyn Scott when she came to Australia many years ago and she suggested a couple of things for teaching the backward walk to dogs with no REA:

1. A piece of wooden dow (sp?) which is placed gently against the dog's chest and used to coax the dog to take a step backward - click/treat

2. Barriers on either side which gave the dog no option but to walk backward.

My boy sometimes walks backwards on his own accord so it will be much easier for me to capture it in my case.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Kelpie-i

[leopuppy04]

Thanks cos.

I agree-'I am mainly being so strict on myself as I feel it really improves handling and training skills .

I also have solely shaped a heel on 2 of my 3'dogs

[Erny]

I shaped :

"Close the cupboard" (he likes to nose punch anyway, so I put it to good use )

"Bow"

In fact, I think I used shaping a lot - but not singularly to anything else. If I was trying for something, I might have begun with lure. Then if I saw him incidentally exhibit the behaviour, I'd grab the opportunity to use shaping methodology. Even vice versa.

My boy knows "back" but I did initially show him this by lure.

I use "back" when we approach our main exit/entry doors at home. I'm finding that he often offers the "back" before I even ask for it now, which is great for two reasons : it takes him away from being right there at the door and thus minimises potential to duck through an open door; and it means he's not in the way when I want to open the door. I also find "back" handy for if he happens to walk over the top of his lead or long-line. Saves tangling.

To the OP ..... just curious, why do you particularly want to only teach "back" by shaping and no other way?

[ozjen]

I know my dogs will often backup of their own accord if they are waiting for a ball to be thrown or trying to get my attention etc, if yours do this you could capture and click the behaviour. This was how my pup learnt to backup, so much easier than when I was teaching Jenna and was just learning the benefits of clicker training.

[leopuppy04]

Erny - I think it provides a stronger behaviour and I think it Develops your skills as a trainer

Well success. I used vickies method of the placement of reward- we now have

Tahli- backing 4 paces- front feet first then back

Leo- backing 2 paces- back feet

Kinta- backing 4 paces - varies between back feet or front feet first.

Each dog had 2x 5 min sessions tonight .

Knew they were useful for something!

Lo and behold I also got a shake and bow offered by tahli as well as a really cute 'sniffing armpit' type behavious- so I really hope I can capture that in another session!!!

Kinta offered a whole array of known and unknown behaviors the smarty pants

Edited March 23, 2011 by leopuppy04

[helen]

Just flicked through this really quidkly so don't know if this has been said:

Make sure you click for movement in the back legs, easiest way to teach this is to just watch the back legs, not the front of the dog.

To extend you can say good dog, and encourage them to keep going, they might take a few tries to get it but should then progress pretty quickly

[Vickie]

Tahli- backing 4 paces- front feet first then back

Leo- backing 2 paces- back feet

Kinta- backing 4 paces - varies between back feet or front feet first.

great news! Well done

[Cosmolo]

Thats great LP

Just touching on something Helen said- how many of you do use a 'good dog' as a keep going type encouragement during shaping and do you use a no reward mark?

[corvus]

I love reversing dogs. I just think it's really cool when a dog has precision with their back end. I've been teaching my dogs to back their rear end onto the top of a log. I think it is really hard for them, despite the fact that Erik picked it up very quickly. Erik is a freak. I've started to use the logs to teach Erik to swing his rear end to one side as he's going back. I used to use one of those rubber mats with nubs for extra grip as a target for back feet, but I'm finding something raised works better. I love watching Erik feeling with his back foot for the target. Kivi is a ways off that, yet. The love is not the most graceful of dogs. He is still mastering balancing on the logs in the first place, although this morning he managed to walk along the top of one log and then onto the top of a skinnier one without instantly falling off. I threw a party. I'm not sure when interacting with logs became my main training interest, but I'm considering the possibility that I'm not cut out for competition.

[Kavik]

Have you decided not to try competing in agility corvus? It is loads of fun! Even when it doesn't go quite to plan and there is so much you can do in terms of breaking exercises down for precision training if that is your thing (I love doing that especially as it means I can do a lot of it at home, and practice handling at training).

[corvus]

I wasn't ever really planning to compete in agility unless Erik was ready for any excuse to throw himself at a course. I just finished foundation agility with him and we're kinda warming to it (both of us, that is) but I decided I want to backtrack and do some more foundation stuff before going any further. I'm getting Control Unleashed back out and doing all the boring stuff I didn't feel like doing to begin with. I think Erik and I will both like it better if we don't have to keep stopping to patch something up. Whether I make it through the foundation training I want done or not is doubtful. I'm easily distracted. By things like logs and walking backwards. I'm trying to make a foundation training plan that incorporates logs and walking backwards and other such fun things so I'll actually stick to it and finish it. I'm good at starting things, but not so good at finishing them!

[PAX]

I think Erik and I will both like it better if we don't have to keep stopping to patch something up. Whether I make it through the foundation training I want done or not is doubtful. I'm easily distracted.

Sounds like a training journal might be helpful and keep your training goals on track.

You shouldn't need to keep stopping to patch something if you train it properly the first time

I tend to be slack with trick training so I kind of get what you mean but in reverse, for me, it's just for fun when I'm bored or it's raining and I want to do something different with the dogs. My dogs have heaps of half trained tricks. ;)

I enjoy the process and reward of training something properly.

[PAX]

There is a really cute freestyle Red BC at crufts this year that has great rear end awareness, walking around a giant basket with her hind legs up on it like a hand stand, it was 2nd place I believe, super cute.

[leopuppy04]

Pax- you got a linky??

Hehe I'm very much the same as you when it comes to trick training!!