Shaping A Dog To Walk Backwards

[leopuppy04]

NB: I am after shaping thoughts and techniques only please. I know how to lure the behaviour, but do not wish to teach it this way.

NB2: All dogs are clicker savvy and 'shaping' savvy so they do understand to 'offer' behaviours etc etc.

Problem: I want to shape all three of my dogs to walk backwards, but they have very little rear end awareness. We have however done other REA exercises such as perch work, heeling backwards and walking back if I step into them, so they have some and do all these exercises well (with the exception of the pup who hasn't done anything other than the perch work).

Why: I believe shaping will provide a stronger behaviour AND that they will continue the behaviour (ie: walk backwards much further) than if it were lured.

Methods:

I’m trying to teach in two separate exercises, neither with much success.

Method 1:

Shaping exercises – sit down and wait first for your dog to show any shift of weight forward or backward and reward that. Start to select only for backwards shift of weight, then asking for the step backwards (front or back paws). Then begin to select for back paw movement only. Continue to select/ shape until you get a dog moving backwards nicely.

Problems: Tahli I’ve got up to two small steps back with her back feet, which I’m rapt about, but I’m not sure if she’s totally understanding the exercise yet. L and K are hopeless. They are GREAT at shaping when there is an object involved but not when it involves their bodies only. The best I can get out of them is a tiny step backwards usually only with the front feet and this is often coupled between the multiple sit/ downs that they have offered and they will repeatedly offer it regardless of a NRM!

Method 2:

Target/ shaping exercise – sit down and start with a mat at your feet. Shape a good *standing* mat behaviour, then gradually move your chair backwards. Keep the dog in front of you (off the mat) and then shape them to walk backwards (initially one step - remember that the mat has been highly reinforced so they want to head back to the reinforcement targe) to the target mat due to the strong reinforcement of the mat position.

Problems: My dogs have all been shaped for the ‘go to your mat and lie down’. I use a different type of mat, but I’m still getting the dog that will turn around, race to the mat and stand there, rather than walking backwards. Again, Tahli with the lower experience, if I throw the food forwards (under my chair) she will grab the food then back up and hit the mat with her back feet – so she is slowly getting there, the big kids however will grab the food, run forward out from under the chair and then turn around and re position (forward movement) back onto the mat. If I lure them forward (off the mat) then wait, they again will offer a sit/drop.

HELP!!!!!! I’m at a loss, because the dogs are offering only a few behaviours so it’s not giving me much to ‘go’ on.

Where I got the methods from:

Method 2: Kay Laurence “Learning Games” book (and normally I love Kay Laurence stuff and this book is very good/ method makes sense to me)

Method 1: Part common sense, also from “The Focussed Puppy” book (don’t know who that is by).

I am now determined that I will teach this as a shaping exercise as I think it will develop MY skills of shaping behaviours without objects in place!

Am open to suggestions – even ones where it’s shaping other behaviours first (eg: getting the dog to think with their bodies) to build up their history of learning!!

How long have I been trying? 2 sessions on each method, started on Monday.

[dandybrush]

how i taught my boy to walk backwards, was i would walk towards him, then click and reward when he backed up. eventually i would just lean towards him and click reward, then i moved to not moving and he would just offer the back up without me leaning, then i added the word and he does it fine now

[The Spotted Devil]

If they are good with objects (let's work to their strengths) could you give them something that they have to step backwards over????

ETA: Sorry, didn't read the bit properly where you said you didn't want to read objects! I like shortcuts

Edited March 22, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[pipsqueak]

some random ideas from a not-so-good trainer...

do you have, or can you set up a "hallway" where the dogs cannot turn around, eg row of chairs. I know you said you didn't want to use objects, but this way you can start with a narrow "tunnel" and widen it when they get the idea.

Is your heeling backwards on cue? If not, I'd put it on cue, and then ask for the behaviour whilst you stand still. Or, if you don't want to put it on cue, perhaps "fake" a step backwards, but remain still, and if the dog moves backwards, mark and reward. Same for when you walk into them.

My gut feeling is to reward (initially) only movement made by the back feet - if you're getting movement with the front feet, they might not be understanding that they need to shift their weight?

With Tahli and her two small steps, how are you rewarding? Are you rewarding in position, or does she come to you? I ask because I had a problem with distance with one of my dogs until I starting throwing the treat for her to catch - she seemed to understand that backing up wasn't reliant on me moving or being close to get a treat. Just a thought.

I will say it took me a lot longer than two sessions (try a couple of weeks) to start getting a backing behaviour. And, with one dog, yes I initially lured the behaviour, but then moved to shaping/clicker as we started for distance. She really needed the luring behaviour to discover that she had back feet!

Not sure if any of this helps!

[leopuppy04]

I was thinking that TSD maybe something to step over or ON to... Any suggestions on surfaces!??

My thoughts are though give that they are very front steering motivated again it will take a while to get them to offer the back up rather than just offering a multitude of behaviours with front feet/ mouth / nose etc.

My other thought is that I first shape them to jump into and out of a box as this can (if taught correctly) brig more awareness to the back end... But again not sure if that will solve the problem :D

DB - thanks for the suggestion . They do know how to back up if you walk into them but because you are cue-ing with your body it is not true to shaping .

Yes I know- hard crowd pleaser

Edited March 22, 2011 by leopuppy04

[Staranais]

Can you do heeling backwards, put a cue word on that, then fade the physical cue of being in heel position?

Or, stand in front of her & use body pressure to get to do one step backwards, repeat with super rewards until really fluent with no body pressure, then use frustration/extinction burst to wait for a second step, etc?

My dog used to have a beautiful backwards walk on cue taught the second way, then I used that to teach her a handstand (walk backwards & kick her hind feet up onto the sofa), now I give my walk backwards cue and she does a flying leap into handstand position on the nearest piece of furniture.

[The Spotted Devil]

If you want to go with something to step over, what about bump jumps??? Or those round foam thing-ies that G suggested I use as bump jumps for Em?

While you're there, can you please work out how to shape my two terrors NOT to wrestle inside please? "OI!" is not working and I can't kick them out as Lilly is on my lap

Edited March 22, 2011 by The Spotted Devil

[leopuppy04]

Some good ideas FDT

do you have, or can you set up a "hallway" where the dogs cannot turn around, eg row of chairs. I know you said you didn't want to use objects, but this way you can start with a narrow "tunnel" and widen it when they get the idea.

Something I *could* do although again, it does rely on you having a dog to shape the behaviour. The issue would still be the same unfortunately as they are offering behaviours, just not the *right* one :D

Is your heeling backwards on cue? If not, I'd put it on cue, and then ask for the behaviour whilst you stand still. Or, if you don't want to put it on cue, perhaps "fake" a step backwards, but remain still, and if the dog moves backwards, mark and reward. Same for when you walk into them.

Yes, they know the back cue, but I want to shape the behaviour and get them to think . I also don't want to have to say 'back' for every step backwards if that makes sense?

My gut feeling is to reward (initially) only movement made by the back feet - if you're getting movement with the front feet, they might not be understanding that they need to shift their weight?

Esentially yes, you are correct, the idea of rewarding any feet movement is to isolate to the dog that the rewarding behaviour is foot movement, before selecting only for rear foot movement .

With Tahli and her two small steps, how are you rewarding? Are you rewarding in position, or does she come to you? I ask because I had a problem with distance with one of my dogs until I starting throwing the treat for her to catch - she seemed to understand that backing up wasn't reliant on me moving or being close to get a treat. Just a thought.

Both - rewarding in position (remember her steps are not far, so it is not pulling her forward again) but also throwing food behind to encourage backward movement.

I will say it took me a lot longer than two sessions (try a couple of weeks) to start getting a backing behaviour. And, with one dog, yes I initially lured the behaviour, but then moved to shaping/clicker as we started for distance. She really needed the luring behaviour to discover that she had back feet!

Maybe I'm just an impatient old sod! they are making progress... just reallllyyyyyy slooooowwwwwllllyyyyyy....

[leopuppy04]

Can you do heeling backwards, put a cue word on that, then fade the physical cue of being in heel position?

Or, stand in front of her & use body pressure to get to do one step backwards, repeat with super rewards until really fluent with no body pressure, then use frustration/extinction burst to wait for a second step, etc?

I could, but as I said, I want to shape (so no cues) and I'm a stubborn old sod :D. I could easily train Leo to back onto the mat by using his 'back cue' but I want him to think about it and begin to offer behaviours with his body.

If you want to go with something to step over, what about bump jumps??? Or those round foam thing-ies that G suggested I use as bump jumps for Em?

While you're there, can you please work out how to shape my two terrors NOT to wrestle inside please? "OI!" is not working and I can't kick them out as Lilly is on my lap

Good idea! I have jump bumps! But it will have to wait till I return hom on sunday . Anne might have some foam thingies lying around though

[JulesP]

Do your dogs ever walk backwards on their own accord? If they don't I am not sure how you can shape it as they aren't ever going to offer it. You are going to have to influence it in some way.

I would spend some time watching them to see if they do ever walk backwards and see what it was that caused that. Maybe set that up and then click away.

Not walking backwards is probably a safety thing and sensible

[pipsqueak]

Maybe I'm just an impatient old sod! they are making progress... just reallllyyyyyy slooooowwwwwllllyyyyyy....

I can relate to that - I have one dog who is a slow learner - took 3+ months to learn how to sit!!! I kid you not. I have HAD to learn patience to be able to train her. Although in her defence, she is part greyhound, so sitting isn't natural, or probably comfortable. But, boy, did I learn a lot about rewards and body cues and motivation during that time!

[The Spotted Devil]

It took me 12 months to shape my Dalmatian to retrieve the dumbbell.......seems even more bizarre now that I'm training a dog for retrieving trial

[Vickie]

I would probably focus more on your placement of reward.

If you get one step, trying throwing the reward between their front legs. Since they will have to step back to get it, it gives you another opportunity to mark & reward & so on. As you progress, try throwing reward deeper between their front legs.

I guess the 2nd step could technically be luring but not really

[sheena]

After trying other methods, it took my BC about 1 minute to learn by this method & it is so simple. Provided your dog knows the value of a clicker. Stand facing your dog with your legs apart...dog focusing on you. Place a treat on the floor just between your legs & back slightly. Dog moves in to take the treat then steps back to look at you again..click as soon as she takes the backwards step & treat placing the treat between your legs & back. Click for backward movement & treat gradually increasing the distance you put the treat. Doesn't take long for them to realise they are being clicked for the backward movement. When you have them going & understanding well, then put a name to it.

[Kavik]

I made a 'hallway' using a table on its side and a fence, then clicked for any foot movement (and like Vickie said placement of reward between front legs) , then click for movement backwards. I didn't care which foot, and probably click on front feet moving backwards.

[leopuppy04]

I would probably focus more on your placement of reward.

If you get one step, trying throwing the reward between their front legs. Since they will have to step back to get it, it gives you another opportunity to mark & reward & so on. As you progress, try throwing reward deeper between their front legs.

I guess the 2nd step could technically be luring but not really

Perfect! I was throwing it backwards but not between their front legs, or feeding them head lowered to push their weight backwards . Thanks Vickie.

After trying other methods, it took my BC about 1 minute to learn by this method & it is so simple. Provided your dog knows the value of a clicker. Stand facing your dog with your legs apart...dog focusing on you. Place a treat on the floor just between your legs & back slightly. Dog moves in to take the treat then steps back to look at you again..click as soon as she takes the backwards step & treat placing the treat between your legs & back. Click for backward movement & treat gradually increasing the distance you put the treat. Doesn't take long for them to realise they are being clicked for the backward movement. When you have them going & understanding well, then put a name to it.

Excellent - a step up from throwing the food under the chair, but reducing the option of them wanting to run through the chair and then back around to face me . Will try this too

I knew DOL would give me some ideas

Can you tell that I'm now trying to do some training that plays to my dogs' (and my) weaknesses rather than doing the simple stuff

[megan_]

Do your dogs ever walk backwards on their own accord? If they don't I am not sure how you can shape it as they aren't ever going to offer it. You are going to have to influence it in some way.

I would spend some time watching them to see if they do ever walk backwards and see what it was that caused that. Maybe set that up and then click away.

Not walking backwards is probably a safety thing and sensible

this is what I was going to say.

I could never truely free shape my dogs to walk backwards (just as I couldn't truely shape them to come to basic heel position) because they never do that of their own accord (unless there is a physical blocker, and then it isn't free shaping).

They obht know the clicker (I only use it for free shaping, no luring at all) and they both offer all sorts of behaviours as soon as the clicker appears but it has never entered their heads to try walk backwards when there is no inpediment.

[BMAK]

my guys naturally walk back on their own accord (being stalking kelpies) which is frustrating when you want them to come to you haha

I was also going to mention the food between their legs but i am not sure if they would offer a bow to get it or even lay down if that is how you may teach change of position by putting the food infront of their legs then again you would be throwing it not lureing.

May i ask why you are shaping this with no cue to walk backwards when they can do so on heel? sounds like a lot of effort haha, you must have patience i bet! lol

Good luck !

[megan_]

You could try using a target stick and moving it closely to them, they'll then need to step back to target. But it feels like cheating!

[sheena]

I would probably focus more on your placement of reward.

If you get one step, trying throwing the reward between their front legs. Since they will have to step back to get it, it gives you another opportunity to mark & reward & so on. As you progress, try throwing reward deeper between their front legs.

I guess the 2nd step could technically be luring but not really

Perfect! I was throwing it backwards but not between their front legs, or feeding them head lowered to push their weight backwards . Thanks Vickie.

After trying other methods, it took my BC about 1 minute to learn by this method & it is so simple. Provided your dog knows the value of a clicker. Stand facing your dog with your legs apart...dog focusing on you. Place a treat on the floor just between your legs & back slightly. Dog moves in to take the treat then steps back to look at you again..click as soon as she takes the backwards step & treat placing the treat between your legs & back. Click for backward movement & treat gradually increasing the distance you put the treat. Doesn't take long for them to realise they are being clicked for the backward movement. When you have them going & understanding well, then put a name to it.

Excellent - a step up from throwing the food under the chair, but reducing the option of them wanting to run through the chair and then back around to face me . Will try this too

I knew DOL would give me some ideas

Can you tell that I'm now trying to do some training that plays to my dogs' (and my) weaknesses rather than doing the simple stuff

With my method...the ONLY treat which is used as a lure is the first one, the rest are rewards for behaviour with regard to placement of reward ie. back between your legs. After teaching this to Bindi, it is the first behavior she will offer me when playing clicker games.