New Puppy And Older Dog -- How Do We Keep Control Of Play?

[angeandbella]

Hi there! We have just got a 4 month old male golden retriever puppy. We also have a 5 year old male of the same breed.

They introduced well and showed no aggressiveness. However, their play sessions are extremely physical and I am concerned that one may be accidently injured. How much is too much? How do we keep control of their play and give it structure?

The puppy actually breaks away from play when called better than our older dog, but the older dog I think is showing signs of trying to achieve dominace such as humping.

They are both desexed.

Any help or advice VERY gratefully appreciated!

xx

[Bundyburger]

You keep control, by splitting them up when you want them to have a break.. puppy goes into his crate or pen, and older dog you just do what you normally do. Ours will break up the play when we ask, and then just go and curl up and sleep.. but they've always been good like that. We have a 4yo and a 18mth old.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Bundy's Mum

[angeandbella]

You keep control, by splitting them up when you want them to have a break.. puppy goes into his crate or pen, and older dog you just do what you normally do. Ours will break up the play when we ask, and then just go and curl up and sleep.. but they've always been good like that. We have a 4yo and a 18mth old.

Thank you so much for your response.

We are looking for a pen today. I think that sounds like a great idea, as sometimes the older dog is showing signs of wanting to rest, but the puppy wants to keep playing; and sometimes it's the other way around.

What should I look for to tell me when I should separate them? Should I look for the above (i.e. when one dog starts to try and break away), or for overexcitement, or just impose a general time limit?

How do you separate them? Today I've had some success with calling and asking them both to sit -- they will settle for about five minutes and then start playing again.

Both dogs seem to respond well to training individually, but so far it feels a bit chaotic when they are both together!

I did wake up this morning and find them curled up together on the same bed, though.

[SmoothieGirl]

Look for a few things:

Is the older dog looking for a break?

Is the play starting to get a little too silly? Often a sign that puppy is over tired - bit like kids.

Depending upon what time of day it is, if they've eaten etc, the time may vary, but I probably wouldn't let them play for more than about 90mins max at that age - assuming that its not all crazy play. If its fast and furious, I'd probably start thinking a time out is required at 45mins.

Also if you have the time, make it not always about the two of them, thrown some off lead training into the mix for both of them. I love getting my two to do side by side sits, drops and mini sit stays. Then they are released for more play, but this stage their adrenalin is somewhat reduced and they will play calmly again for a while. The key to training together is a bit of hand co-ordination (treats in both hands - one hand for each dog), insistence that the older dog does nothing less that what you would expect if it was individual training and yummy yummy treats and lots of them.

As for breaking them up, call them to you and simply pop on a lead, take to pen and put him in it with a toy or two or a chew treat.

* Don't always take him away when you call them though, perhaps call them over 4-5 times while they are playing, put the lead on treat and then release again. You don't want puppy to associate being called with the end of a game as he may just stop coming to you at some point. Putting him away with a treat or toy though should be a nice experience for him.

[angeandbella]

Look for a few things:

Is the older dog looking for a break?

Is the play starting to get a little too silly? Often a sign that puppy is over tired - bit like kids.

Depending upon what time of day it is, if they've eaten etc, the time may vary, but I probably wouldn't let them play for more than about 90mins max at that age - assuming that its not all crazy play. If its fast and furious, I'd probably start thinking a time out is required at 45mins.

Also if you have the time, make it not always about the two of them, thrown some off lead training into the mix for both of them. I love getting my two to do side by side sits, drops and mini sit stays. Then they are released for more play, but this stage their adrenalin is somewhat reduced and they will play calmly again for a while. The key to training together is a bit of hand co-ordination (treats in both hands - one hand for each dog), insistence that the older dog does nothing less that what you would expect if it was individual training and yummy yummy treats and lots of them.

As for breaking them up, call them to you and simply pop on a lead, take to pen and put him in it with a toy or two or a chew treat.

* Don't always take him away when you call them though, perhaps call them over 4-5 times while they are playing, put the lead on treat and then release again. You don't want puppy to associate being called with the end of a game as he may just stop coming to you at some point. Putting him away with a treat or toy though should be a nice experience for him.

Thank you! I really, really appreciate your response!

45-90mins? I've been getting worried MUCH earlier than that. Possibly I am just being paranoid? Although it does seem like VERY mouthy play to me and I'm worried that my puppy is developing bad habits. he apparently missed puppy school (he was rehomed to us at 16 weeks due to not being fit for showing with his previous owner?), so I don't know what sort of manners to expect from him, and how restrictive I should be.

ETA: we will be booking into Toddler Taming classes at the local vet as soon as a place opens. we already have our name down.

It IS just play, there are wagging tails and excited faces everywhere, but both dogs end up with saturated ears from being mouthed so much.

Our adult dog plays with other adults at the dog beach and at doggy day play, and never seems to make any mouth contact at all...so this is different. Am I being overly concerned? Is this just part of them working out their boundaries with each other?

Very good tip about not always separating them I think...there was one instance today when the puppy did not respond to being called over and I wonder if that was the reason...although they had kind of descended into being absolutely bonkers by that time and really weren't paying any attention to us at all.

We've focused on dual training (sit, drop, off/leave it, recall) and calming exercises today -- I think it's helping a little and it's definitely giving me a bit more confidence.

They are enjoying Kongs together, too.

One more question -- if they DON'T respond to being called over, is it right to wade in and grab their collars? Or should I just keep calling and up the rewards for coming? Is this potentially one of the signs we should have given them a break a little sooner? We tried leaving the leads on initially but it seemed like they were causing more problems with the dogs stepping and rolling on them and nearly strangling themselves.

And one other factor I didn't mention -- the puppy still has abdominal stitches (due out Thursday).

These forums and the people on them are wonderful. I've been reading through a lot of past posts and learning so much-- there are some great ideas!

Edited March 22, 2011 by angeandbella

[SmoothieGirl]

If puppy is only a couple of days from getting the stitches out you should be fine, but perhaps limit the play a bit more.

45 - 90 mins will depend upon if they are being manic or not. If they are playing tug or just bumbling around the place together with some silly play that's ok, but that much full on silly play is probably too much.

My two play 'bitey face' lots of teeth flashing, waggy tails and wet dogs. Trust me if one of them bites too hard you'll know it, they will tell the other one. At this point I instigate a time out as well as it tends to happen when Ren is getting tired and a bit OTT. Got to say I'm finding it excellent bite inhabition training, Ren has never really tried to mouth me, he leaves all of that play for Bronte.

Don't call them more than once! Repetitive name calling during a recall is one of the worst things we can do with our dogs - it makes them immune to something we want them to instantly react too. Call one of them, if he/she doesn't respond go and grab the collar, put the treat near their nose and lure them back to where you called them from (well within reason). Unless your older dog has an exceptional recall, in which case I would just be grabbing the collar and recalling them without the treat - no treat for bad behaviour. I play more recall games than anything as I want excellent recall on my dogs, but its always an exciting game for them. Don't forget to jackpot really fast responses and returns to you, a few treats rather than one, just keep them really small in size. Its the receipt of a treat and the value of the treat, not the size of a treat that dogs love.

Already I can take my two to a local oval and let my older dog off for a run, keeping Ren on a 10 metre long line. I let them play and Ren will instantly recall to me for a treat. We play this a lot, but this is after a lot of at home training - same game but off lead. Have treats on you or at hand ALL the time and just for the hell of it, unless they are asleep or eating of course, play a recall game. Call ONCE and treat or if you need to lure him to you then treat. Find something he goes nuts for, their dry food generally isn't great for this. Faves in this house are roast chicken, Happy Paws treats and liver treats.

I'd leave the leads off at home too, I worry about legs and leads. I'm pretty careful with my long line when out, but its a nice soft one (Black Dog) and I tend to recall them quite often so I can also untangle any bits I don't like.

Another idea - if they are playing lots of bitey face and it looks to be getting a bit silly a loud couple of hand claps can get their attention on you and allow them to change the game to something else. I don't tolerate mouths on legs either and will intervene at that point, even if only to give them a 'no legs' and seperate with collars (or scruffs as mine don't wear collars at home) and let them play again. Also rotate their toys every 3 days or so, include lots of interactive tug toys, toys with noises etc, this may encourage to play more toy sharing games rather than just with each others bodies.

Edited March 22, 2011 by SmoothieGirl

[Tilly]

We had fenced down the middle of the back yard - so we had the pup on one side and the older boy on the other. We only let them play while we were actively supervising them.

Thankfully we had taught our older boy the "gentle" command so when things got a litte rough we were able to tell him to be more gentle ... when the pup got a bit rough then we let the older boy either tell him off or separated them again.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Tilly

[angeandbella]

If puppy is only a couple of days from getting the stitches out you should be fine, but perhaps limit the play a bit more.

45 - 90 mins will depend upon if they are being manic or not. If they are playing tug or just bumbling around the place together with some silly play that's ok, but that much full on silly play is probably too much.

My two play 'bitey face' lots of teeth flashing, waggy tails and wet dogs. Trust me if one of them bites too hard you'll know it, they will tell the other one. At this point I instigate a time out as well as it tends to happen when Ren is getting tired and a bit OTT. Got to say I'm finding it excellent bite inhabition training, Ren has never really tried to mouth me, he leaves all of that play for Bronte.

Don't call them more than once! Repetitive name calling during a recall is one of the worst things we can do with our dogs - it makes them immune to something we want them to instantly react too. Call one of them, if he/she doesn't respond go and grab the collar, put the treat near their nose and lure them back to where you called them from (well within reason). Unless your older dog has an exceptional recall, in which case I would just be grabbing the collar and recalling them without the treat - no treat for bad behaviour. I play more recall games than anything as I want excellent recall on my dogs, but its always an exciting game for them. Don't forget to jackpot really fast responses and returns to you, a few treats rather than one, just keep them really small in size. Its the receipt of a treat and the value of the treat, not the size of a treat that dogs love.

Already I can take my two to a local oval and let my older dog off for a run, keeping Ren on a 10 metre long line. I let them play and Ren will instantly recall to me for a treat. We play this a lot, but this is after a lot of at home training - same game but off lead. Have treats on you or at hand ALL the time and just for the hell of it, unless they are asleep or eating of course, play a recall game. Call ONCE and treat or if you need to lure him to you then treat. Find something he goes nuts for, their dry food generally isn't great for this. Faves in this house are roast chicken, Happy Paws treats and liver treats.

I'd leave the leads off at home too, I worry about legs and leads. I'm pretty careful with my long line when out, but its a nice soft one (Black Dog) and I tend to recall them quite often so I can also untangle any bits I don't like.

Another idea - if they are playing lots of bitey face and it looks to be getting a bit silly a loud couple of hand claps can get their attention on you and allow them to change the game to something else. I don't tolerate mouths on legs either and will intervene at that point, even if only to give them a 'no legs' and seperate with collars (or scruffs as mine don't wear collars at home) and let them play again. Also rotate their toys every 3 days or so, include lots of interactive tug toys, toys with noises etc, this may encourage to play more toy sharing games rather than just with each others bodies.

Thank you! This is very helpful. Why legs rather than faces? The puppy nips at the older dog's undercarriage, too, particular when he is trying to hump the puppy. We noticed today a number of reddened areas like welts on Keba's belly -- quite worrying for us as Keba tends to lick and lick at any sores and can turn the tiniest itch into a raging hot spot within 24 hours.

We are doing recall games at home, will definitely keep going. I love this game as much as our dogs do!

Do you recommend using a positive interrupter if they don't respond to being called? Or will this teach them that they don't have to come straight away because another command is coming?

Will rotate toys, too.

Noticed today that Keba had regressed a bit on his walk and had gone back to pulling a bit on the leash -- something he hasn't done for AGES. We went back to all our loose leash techniques and he settled down by half way around. Testing boundaries?

We are lucky in having at least one of us home for the next two weeks. Had hoped to be able to leave them alone together by the end of that time -- perhaps I need to lower my expectations. Quite prepared to change the plan if we need to -- I want safe, happy dogs and no stress for myself when I am away from them!

[angeandbella]

We had fenced down the middle of the back yard - so we had the pup on one side and the older boy on the other. We only let them play while we were actively supervising them.

Thankfully we had taught our older boy the "gentle" command so when things got a litte rough we were able to tell him to be more gentle ... when the pup got a bit rough then we let the older boy either tell him off or separated them again.

How did you teach the gentle command?

I wish we could divide our yard -- it would give us so much more flexibility in the short term.

Thank you so much for your comment.

[Cosmolo]

In addition to what the others have said- stop any humping/ mounting between the dogs.

Spend time conditioning both dogs names at other times- pair their name with an immediate food reward many, many times. The more repetitions you do of this very simple exercise, the more likely you will be able to reliably interupt play sessions etc. Get to training as soon as you can as well!

[angeandbella]

In addition to what the others have said- stop any humping/ mounting between the dogs.

Spend time conditioning both dogs names at other times- pair their name with an immediate food reward many, many times. The more repetitions you do of this very simple exercise, the more likely you will be able to reliably interupt play sessions etc. Get to training as soon as you can as well!

Thank you! You are so right about conditioning the names. We are already seeing improvements, but will continue to work. We are finding it enormously helpful with everything as our puppy starts stealing, chewing, and counter surfing!

And thanks for the advice about the humping -- glad to have it confirmed that we should be discouraging that!

We've organised Toddler Taming for Casper (the puppy) starting next Thursday. In the interim, we have also organised a single private lesson with both dogs, which is tomorrow.

[SmoothieGirl]

For me its 'no legs' because they can have a tendency to grab each others legs and walk away or pull which can risk putting the other dogs leg at a funny angle and having them over balance, risking leg injuries. Skin around faces tends to be a bit loose and so they tend not to hurt, but watch ears.

If you think Keba is getting welts, then stop the play earlier or try to redirect them to a toy.

I have tried to teach 'gentle' but found it hard for them to interpret, so instead I just redirect or time out. They are currently eating there own chews on a time out as things got a little manic. Bring the chews out and they both found their own spots and now I have quiet time, but still very happy doggies.

Sounds like you are doing the right things.

Edited March 24, 2011 by SmoothieGirl

[Little Gifts]

We had a rescue staffy of 12 weeks come to live with a rescue staffy of 13 years. They are now almost 4 and 17 respectively and they still play rough, bashing into each other, mouthing (teeth bared bitey face!), heavy nudging with snouts and paws, gruff barking, all that. They play on the bed first thing in the morning and at night while we are trying to watch tv. We have had no accidental injuries in either dog, no yelping when things got out of hand and the games tend to be ended by the older dog making a more agressive bark or walking away. As the play seems to happen in front of us there is always a human to stop things if they got out of control, particularly with one dog being so old now, but the dogs themselves have managed naturally with very little intervention from us.

We also have an 8 year old husky x shep and she and the younger dog playing are the ones we have to watch. The husky closes her jaw around the younger one's snout and when the younger one tries to wiggle it out she gets little scratches on her face. Plus the husky grabs her inner back leg and flips her like a poddy calf. There is more of a power struggle going on in their play so we watch it closely and stop it with commands to the husky when she is getting a certain look on her face. It seems more power play than natural play and there is some squealing from the younger dog when she wants to 'give in'. Mind you she is drawn to playing with this dog but again it happens when we are around so we monitor it. The husky doesn't like the older staffy either and does air nips at her when she walks too close. They have never played together or even as a group of three, but travel in the car together, walk together and share a bed together. No fights. I think it is more an age thing between them.

[angeandbella]

Just in case anyone is interested, we took both dogs to a trainer/behaviourist on Friday. She was amazing! It was a one hour session (although she ended up giving us more like an hour and a half) in a lovely secure area. Initially our dogs were more interested in exploring, but once they settled they proceeded to give an excellent example of EXACTLY the behaviours they are doing at home.

The summary -- IT'S ALL OKAY! It's all friendly play (even though it is far more physical than any play I have been used to seeing my dogs do). She encouraged us to sit down and just watch and monitor, and we found that the dogs naturally programmed their own breaks into their play. She also said that we seemed to be doing all the right things, so THANK YOU EVERYONE for your advice and support!

Another technique she suggested was to pat lots of attention to our dogs when they are calm, rather than when they are going bananas playing.

We have continued to work on recall games and general obedience and manners for both dogs. Keba was back to his gentlemanly-self on his walk today, and we've found the squeaker toy to be a great interrupter for him.

Casper is like a sponge for new information. He learns so fast that I'm worried that we are trying to teach too much! In less than a week, he has learnt his name, recall, sit, drop, roll over, shake paws, off. He has learnt to climb stairs and is learning to walk on a lead. We are getting lots of exposure to lots of new and different stimuli, and he will often stop and think about these experiences, and then investigate. He is quite self-possessed!

Of course, we are also learning about a new way to puppy-proof our house every day, so the training is going both ways.

Casper has become quite the expert counter-surfer in just a few days. Any suggestions? He is still jumping up on occasion, too, for attention...we are using the ignore technique with some success, but I feel this is an area where patience will be required.

We start Toddler Taming classes next Thursday. Can't wait!

Our lives have completely revolved around our dogs for almost a week, now. Time management is certainly going to be an issue once we are both back at work!

Thanks again, everyone.