Should A Breeder Be Somewhat Liable?

[Guest]

Hi , this is my first post

i want sure which forum to post it in -

im after some advice as im not sure what if anything can be done about this,

16 months ago i purchased a pure breed Yorshire Terrier from a reputable breeder from this site

unfortunately he has been sick now with bladder stones and after very expensive medical bills it has been discovered

that he suffers from a congential liver problem, a liver shunt, he was born with this and luckilly till now the signs were minimal thats why we didnt realise there was anything wrong. Now he needs an operation to fix this problem.

My question is shouldnt the breeder be somewhat liable for this? this problem is VERY common in yorkies

and considering they have been breeding them for so many years they would be aware, according to online reasearch yorkshire terriers are 36 more times likely than all other breeds combined to have this problem.

i have contacted the breeder who has been helpfull in giving me advice, although the breeder claims in 30 years never to have a liver shunt dog and that she cant be responsible due to diet, well this problem has nothing to do with diet , it is a problem they inherit at birth

Can you please advise what if anything can be done?

i have $5,000 medical bills to pay (which i dont have) to fix this problem and hopefully give him a normal life.

Her website says pups forfeit their medical gurantee if you choose to vaccianate, well when i bought him in 2009

she didnt have this rule as he came vaccinated from her end.

thank you and i look forward to your response.

here is a link to some info re my dogs problem.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.php

Edited March 19, 2011 by Guest

[Guest Ams]

If the problem is very common in yorkies, did you do the appropriate research prior to purchasing this puppy? Had you made yourself aware of the health issues of the breed and any appropriate feeding guides?

**waiver, the information I have posted below comes from a quick google of several sites**

Liver shunts can be either congenital or polygenic. If congenital it seems they are usually picked up by six months of age, if polygenic it is usually caused by diet.

************************************************************

I think you would need to have your vet state in writing that they are able to state categorically the shunt is congenital (and then I'd be wanting to know why it wasn't diagnosed sooner) if you expect the breeder to pay.

I would also suggest you limit the comments or information you provide here if you intend going down a legal avenue to recoup costs (which seems likely). If the breeder advertises on here then there is every chance he/she/they is/are a member and it won't be too hard for people to identify who you are referring to. DOL does not need any more defamation or libel suits.

Generally speaking I believe breeders would not knowingly sell pups with liver shunts, they would be pts.

OT and JMHO I am dismayed a breeder would state all rights to a health guarantee is waived if owners vaccinate their pets. Parvo is devestating on young dogs and I truly believe even if you are not a proponent of vaccinations, all dogs should have them in their first year. After that I am all for people making choices for themselves.

**stepping out very carefully now as this is not a topic I would normally even get involved with***

Edited March 19, 2011 by Ams

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Henrietta

You could always ask the breeder to help. Unfortunately being listed on this site does not always mean the breeder is all that responsible by RSPCA standards. Or even by the ANKC code of ethics standards. Most are, some are not.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-a-responsib...reeder_327.html

In the meantime you can ask your vet to submit the info to this website.

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/

That way at least the problem is recorded and if there is a pattern of it, other people can be informed.

Knowing something has happened, is much harder than proving it in a court of law. At this stage, the problem being "congenital" or hereditary may only be one vet's opinion. Could the breeder find another to state something different in a court of law. Do you have the funds to go to court - would it be worth it - ie would it cost you more or less than just stumping up for the vet bills.

And at what point do you decide that the potential improved quality of life for the dog does not justify the interventions and opt for PTS. That's always a good question to ask the vet if it was their own dog - what would they do.

Back in the "old days" nobody (no breeder?) would spend $5000 (or many times the cost of a puppy) on saving a deformed dog. They'd PTS. Having said that, my family spent thousands on hip operation for an aussie terrier who was not built right from birth. She had a good life without the hip joint tho. As much as an Aussie Terror can in a house full of teenagers.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[WoofnHoof]

I do think the breeder is possibly negligent to a certain extent as when my dog had a liver shunt I researched it quite a bit and time after time yorkies were identified as having one of the highest incidences of liver shunt.

Having said that I think it is a bit rare for breeders to test pups in every litter, I know that it is also common in Irish Wolfhounds and is routinely tested for but in smaller breeds I don't think it is as common to test the pups. The inheritance is not known at this stage, the fact that it is quite common in some breeds suggests a pattern of inheritance but at this point it has not actually been able to be identified. It is definetly not caused by diet as it is a condition they are born with, acquired shunts are a totally different kettle of fish.

I feel your pain I had a similar struggle with health problems with my sibe until diagnosis, luckily the surgery was a success and he is a perfectly normal dog now but it's a very stressful and expensive road to travel with a young dog. I bought mine from a pet shop that had a 'health guarantee' but apparently that doesn't cover congenital defects so no love for me either, my bills were over $7k

To be honest I don't think you'll have much luck getting money out of the breeder at this stage especially since the testing is not compulsory and if the pup looked ok when you got him and wasn't showing symptoms there is probably not a lot you can do if they are unwilling to assist with costs. The fact that they have tried to pass it off as dietary suggests to me that they either don't know enough about the condition (unlikely since it's common in the breed) or that they are trying to palm you off.

Either way if it were me I would concentrate on trying to get the money together for the op and concentrate on your pup right now, it is a risky and stressful operation but if all goes well your pup will be much happier and healthier and that is the main thing.

efs

Edited March 19, 2011 by WoofnHoof

[SkySoaringMagpie]

You have two issues here. One is whether you come to a conclusion that the breeder is liable. The other is whether you pursue it if you think they are. The latter doesn't necessarily follow from the former, and the collective opinion of DOL carries no weight at all.

We have a breed that has this issue, and our dog was tested for it before he came to us. The breeder tests all her dogs before homing them. If liver shunt is a problem in yorkies then your breeder should have tested for it. Ideally a buyer would not purchase an untested dog either.

Ultimately tho', how much are you prepared to spend of your time and mental energy to go after the breeder? As with any other purchase gone wrong, sometimes a threatening letter is all it takes, sometimes you have to go to small claims or court, and you may or may not be successful. If the breeder has limited funds an order to pay may not be honored, if they are wealthy their lawyer might nail you and your legal representative to the nearest wall. DOL can't help you make that decision.

If this was me, I would slap myself for purchasing an untested dog, chalk it up to experience and put my energy into caring for my dog.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Having said that I think it is a bit rare for breeders to test pups in every litter, I know that it is also common in Irish Wolfhounds and is routinely tested for but in smaller breeds I don't think it is as common to test the pups.

Huh, that's interesting. Our dog is an IW, and I just assumed that any breed with this problem would test for it before homing pups. Can any of the small breed people shed any light on why you wouldn't test?

[Missymoo]

Having said that I think it is a bit rare for breeders to test pups in every litter, I know that it is also common in Irish Wolfhounds and is routinely tested for but in smaller breeds I don't think it is as common to test the pups. The inheritance is not known at this stage, the fact that it is quite common in some breeds suggests a pattern of inheritance but at this point it has not actually been able to be identified. It is definetly not caused by diet as it is a condition they are born with, acquired shunts are a totally different kettle of fish.

efs

Hi all,

it is because the inheritence is not known that Cairn breeders DO test all puppies in a litter...I couldnt imagine sending a pup away not knowing..and yes Yorkies have been known 'shunters' for donkeys years...cairns are relativly new, (5 ish years) that testing has become the norm...a simple blood test of each pup will tell you what you need to know betweem 6 - 12 weeks.

Im sorry for your puppy, but that would have been my first questain to the breeders before you bought, if you were aware of this ailment in the breed and had done research as you mentioned?

Im sorry for your pain, hope the pup has a successful op and lives a happy life

[dancinbcs]

If the mode of inheritence is not known then the breeder would not be able to do any sort of testing of the parents to avoid the problem. I have no idea how or if they test for liver shunt in puppies of breeds where it is common but congenital liver shunt can occur occasionally in any breed and is sometimes not detected until the puppy is a few months old. I have only heard of 2 cases in my breed in nearly 3 decades. If I ever produced one I would refund the purchase price and give the owner the option of returning the puppy or keeping it and seeking treatment.

Unless a breeder knowingly breeds and sells a puppy with a congenital problem then they should only liable up to the purchase price of the puppy. Breeders don't have x-ray vision and neither do their vets. If the puppy is returned, the breeder may opt to euthanise. If the owner chooses to pay a large amount for veterinary treatment then that is up to them, but as it is not the decision of the breeder to do this, they should not be liable for the cost of that treatment.

If however the problem is something that most other Yorkie breeders routinely test puppies for and a definitive test is readily available, then you may have grounds to seek compensation for the vet bills.

[Guest]

thanks for your reply

i wont be taking it any further i just wanted others opinions , i dont need that in my life on top of all this right now

to be honest im more upset than anything, my anxiety levels right now are thorugh the roof over this

obviously its causing a huge stress and financial burden, i just want my boy to be healthy

when i enquired about a yorkie i did look into the breed and didnt read a thing about shunts

i spent alot of money to buy this rare breed and just didnt expect this. so its just been stressfull

regarding the vaccinations, this breeder is against them,

If the problem is very common in yorkies, did you do the appropriate research prior to purchasing this puppy? Had you made yourself aware of the health issues of the breed and any appropriate feeding guides?

**waiver, the information I have posted below comes from a quick google of several sites**

Liver shunts can be either congenital or polygenic. If congenital it seems they are usually picked up by six months of age, if polygenic it is usually caused by diet.

************************************************************

I think you would need to have your vet state in writing that they are able to state categorically the shunt is congenital (and then I'd be wanting to know why it wasn't diagnosed sooner) if you expect the breeder to pay.

I would also suggest you limit the comments or information you provide here if you intend going down a legal avenue to recoup costs (which seems likely). If the breeder advertises on here then there is every chance he/she/they is/are a member and it won't be too hard for people to identify who you are referring to. DOL does not need any more defamation or libel suits.

Generally speaking I believe breeders would not knowingly sell pups with liver shunts, they would be pts.

OT and JMHO I am dismayed a breeder would state all rights to a health guarantee is waived if owners vaccinate their pets. Parvo is devestating on young dogs and I truly believe even if you are not a proponent of vaccinations, all dogs should have them in their first year. After that I am all for people making choices for themselves.

**stepping out very carefully now as this is not a topic I would normally even get involved with***

[Guest]

thanks,the thing is the dog has been fine up till now, the only reason we found out he got bladder stones

so prior to that no issues. after the stones were flushed out they did testing and it came up he has this problem

at this point its cost me 2.5K and the surgery in a few weeks will cost another 2K or so

there is no way i would ever put him to sleep, hes perfectly normal now

we have him on a liver diet, ive researched the surgery and he can live a normal life, if succesfull

even though his signs are minimal now, i prefer to do the fix now incase he gets worse down the track

i dont believe this breeder was aware of this issue, or did anything purposely, but i am very frustrated obviously

Henrietta

You could always ask the breeder to help. Unfortunately being listed on this site does not always mean the breeder is all that responsible by RSPCA standards. Or even by the ANKC code of ethics standards. Most are, some are not.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-a-responsib...reeder_327.html

In the meantime you can ask your vet to submit the info to this website.

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/

That way at least the problem is recorded and if there is a pattern of it, other people can be informed.

Knowing something has happened, is much harder than proving it in a court of law. At this stage, the problem being "congenital" or hereditary may only be one vet's opinion. Could the breeder find another to state something different in a court of law. Do you have the funds to go to court - would it be worth it - ie would it cost you more or less than just stumping up for the vet bills.

And at what point do you decide that the potential improved quality of life for the dog does not justify the interventions and opt for PTS. That's always a good question to ask the vet if it was their own dog - what would they do.

Back in the "old days" nobody (no breeder?) would spend $5000 (or many times the cost of a puppy) on saving a deformed dog. They'd PTS. Having said that, my family spent thousands on hip operation for an aussie terrier who was not built right from birth. She had a good life without the hip joint tho. As much as an Aussie Terror can in a house full of teenagers.

[WoofnHoof]

Having said that I think it is a bit rare for breeders to test pups in every litter, I know that it is also common in Irish Wolfhounds and is routinely tested for but in smaller breeds I don't think it is as common to test the pups.

Huh, that's interesting. Our dog is an IW, and I just assumed that any breed with this problem would test for it before homing pups. Can any of the small breed people shed any light on why you wouldn't test?

I don't know it just came up a lot in my reading that most often it's the IW breeders that routinely test. Good to hear that the Cairn breeders are stepping up to the plate and testing, apparently it crops up in Maltese a lot but I don't know whether it's routinely tested in them. The more it's tested for the better chance we have of tracking it as shunts can often get misdiagnosed and if the animal dies before the cause is identified then there is the chance that a lot of incidences are being missed.

dancinbcs as Missymoo says a blood test of the pups should show up the problem and that can be done before the pup leaves for it's new home. Inheritance is hard to track but when it's common in the breed it really is a good idea to test, I can see why a lot of breeders don't though the full analysis is not cheap it would add up for a whole litter.

I think it's understandable how the OP didn't know to check whether pups had been tested for this, it's still a relatively rare condition even though it has a high incidence within certain breeds. The breeder should know as it can show up in the breed but I don't blame the OP for not knowing because most people don't know about shunts until they have to learn unfortunately. Having said that the breeder may have not known if it had occured before in their lines due to so many incidences of misdiagnosis with this condition, it is often not the first thing vets think of when they come across an ill dog. My boy showed classic shunt symptoms but several vets failed to pick it up, and when it was suggested they still didn't want to consider it as it is so uncommon. He was misdiagnosed as having lead poisoning and if I hadn't looked into it further and sought several more opinions nothing would have been done and I probably would have lost him.

[Missymoo]

PPS testing is so simple, 12 hour fast, blood testing, feed then straight away blood test again, if testing scores are high then a syntygraphy is done (CT Scan with radium through the sytym) if I had a scanner Id put a normal and a shunt puppy syntygraphy, shunt can be clearly seen. Other pups have had slightly high tests and are tested again fine. Scottish terriers is another breed that can have shunts.

Henrietta, please give Dr Linda Abraham at Werribee vet clinic a call, shunts are her specialty, she does most cairn terrier testing. She is a lovely lady and extreamly knowledgable on the subject. Shes hard to get hold of and it can be esier to email her (her Melboune Uni/Werribee vet clinic adress.)

[WoofnHoof]

If it's extrahepatic (which it often is in small breeds) then you have a great chance of success with surgery, my dog was like a new dog afterwards he'd only shown a few mild symptoms prior to gettting really sick at about 6 months of age. I'd recommend my dog's surgeon but unfortunately she has moved overseas and works at the University of California now.

Missymoo if you don't mind me asking what is the approx cost of a blood test for you? When my dog's was done it was about $160 but he had full biochemistry not just bile acids.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Henrietta25

If you don't think the breeder was aware, I would recommend phoning them or asking your vet (who might be calmer) to phone them and discuss the problem with them and how to test for it. I think even if they're unable or unwilling to compensate you (cost of puppy), maybe it would help them to know. It's possible they would be grateful for the info, or they might blow you off. Either way at least you tried to do the right thing by them. I would hope that they would be the sort of breeder who would want to know.

All the best with your puppy now.

[Missymoo]

Cost varies, when Linda was doing her study it was $30perpup. As she had a grant to cover costs. Now it can be between $55 and $100 per pup. Well worth the money for piece of mind I think!

[WoofnHoof]

I agree that's pretty reasonable