No Wonder Ppl Go To Bybs

[Rebanne]

great post steve

[whippets]

amen

[colliehound]

I am only up to page 7, but need to add my 2 cents. Apoligies if I repeat something said page 7 onwards.

Perthgirl - as others have said - the response you are seeing from some breeders, is the difference between wanting a "pet" and wanting a "show or working dog".

If you want a pet, you need to understand that you are likely to be at the bottom of the list of a good breeder. Not because you aren't "worthy" but because you are standing in the queue with people like myself. Average breeders will be more keen to sell pets than top breeders who can afford to be as precious as they want - thier product is in serious demand.

Let me explain - if you and I both wanted a dog from Breeder A, B and C - the difference in our plans and approach to the breeder explain why we have differing levels of sucess. I am not criticising you here - not everyone will do it the way I do - but I am telling you just to explain why some very good breeders are tardy or absent in responding to pet requests.

(I also have to defend some breeders in slow slow responses - because we also live on property and frequently don't have access or power for weeks on end - it is not about being rude - it is about living seriously rural so we can have lots of dogs - you have to give up conveniences like power, water etc)

I approach my breeders at least 2 years in advance of wanting a puppy. I visit them at shows around the country. I provide a "resume" of my dog owning experience and will make at least one visit to thier property before we even get to picking mum and dad - never mind puppies.

I go out of my way to tell them what I can offer, I ask when I can meet them at shows to talk about thier dogs.

I wanted 2 pet Collies - I spent four years scmoozing the breeder I wanted dogs from, before finally getting my puppies. It is not for everyone - it is definately for those who want top quality dogs (regardless of purpose). I have been working for two years on my next breeder (different breed) and will probably not take a dog from her for another 2 years - but I am sure breeders on this forum will agree that someone who is willing to visit you at shows consistently for years and send you regular photos and stories of thier existing dogs - is a more assuring prospect that someone who flicks an e-mail and gets annoyed at having to "tell thier life story".

Again - not having a go at you. Not at all - but if your breed is in short supply - remember you may well be "competing" with people like me who will do ANYTHING for a good dog from a good breeder.

If your main interest is a pet and you don't intend to show or work the dog - seriously consider shelter dogs. Many are fine sound pure breds that some city person has bought - stuck in a yard and dumped because it was a handful. You could change his/her world!!

All the best.

We also plan to show Puppy when he/she finally arrives - so we are furthering the breeders name and reputation.

I don't believe it is harsh.

If the only attempts to contact breeders over the past 8 months has been via email then to me that indicates the OP is not being proactive enough.

There are dodgy breeders, there are time wasting buyers I get that, but we are not talking about rare breed. There have been suggestions to contact Connie Redhead in SA, and if you look at her puppy listing on DOL currently she specifically says to call.

If the OP wants to make a thread saying 'no wonder people go to BYB's' but had done nothing more than send email enquiries then its an unfair call on breeders. The breeder said to call her in the email response!!! and the OP still hasn't done that.

[jaybeece]

I'd explain it this way.

If you want to buy a fridge that will keep stuff cold, by all means go along to your nearest discount retailer and buy the cheapest one they have. Set aside a similar amount because in a couple of years time you will no doubt be buying another one.

If you want to buy a fridge that will look good in your kitchen, has good technology inside and will either stand the test of time or be covered by a proper warranty, then do some research, check out your brands and choose the best brand for your purpose and price.

Really? You're comparing dogs to fridges? Since when have we have cheap fridges suffering because they're not well "made", homeless fridges rotting in fridge shelters because no-one wants them, fridge farms where the fridges are kept in horrible conditions.

That's a downright silly analogy.

Isn't there a bit of a disconnect here? On the one hard we (as in DOL in general) condemn puppy farmers and backyard breeders for a whole host of valide reasons. There are frequent threads despairing of family, friends and workmates who go the puppy shop route despite much promotion of the purebred dog option. And breeders equally frequently deplore the fact that Joe and Jane General Public don't see purebred dogs as a viable way of getting a new family member.

But here are people who actually wanted a purebreed dog and are finding it hard and the expectation is that it should be a thankless, difficult, and unfriendly process to ensure that people are sufficiently motivated to buy a purebreed puppy?

How hard would it be to shoot back a friendly email saying "thanks, here's some stuff about us and this is what I'd like to know about you"? Many people find it hard to express themselves through email, especially if they are being asked to cover some criteria which is invisible to them. Being friendly and encouraging doesn't mean that you have to spend hours writing long emails, or hand dogs over to anyone who wants them, but good customer service isn't that difficult.

I deal with lots and lots and lots of rescue applications for our dogs. Some of them just make me roll my eyes and go "FFS", but all of them get a polite reply asking them some questions or directing them to our application forms or just declining them gently. Yes, it takes time, but a number of those "FFS" emails have turned out to be from lovely, caring, responsible people who just don't write very well and had I turned them away because of that one of our animals might have missed out on a terrific home.

I don't do this because I'm an incredibly nice person, because I'm not really, but because I see that part of my role is to advocate for rescue by being as client oriented and professional as I possibly can.

And on reflection what WoofnHoof said.

This post isn't getting enough love.

We've had this thread eleventy billion times and it always ends up the breeders in one corner with their arms crossed saying "I don't wanna" and the frustrated puppy buyers in the other with THEIR arms crossed saying the same.

And meanwhile pure bred numbers are dropping, BYB's are going strong and pounds are still receiving a healthy influx of dogs. I'm not going to say that it's all breeders faults because they weed out crap enquiries. But if you're going to shit on people for buying pet shop puppies make sure you're squeaky clean about the way you treat people who have puppy enquiries.

If I were in the OP's position I'd probably have cracked the shits 5 months ago and gone to a shelter. But that's because my parents drilled it into me from a very early age that pet shops are bad m'kay. Your average naive prospective puppy owner won't know this, especially if they've never owned a dog before.

[Boxerheart]

I wouldn't pay a non-refundable deposit an anything, much less a dog.

Non-refundable has 'come in sucker' written all over it, particularly if the deposit is substantial.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale.

When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000.

Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion.

I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable.

I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already).

But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund.

If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them?

Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty?

I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB"

Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade?

Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply

So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market.

You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs.

I agree with most you have said but disagree with the last line.

I keep dogs as a hobby, this invariably does need some form of business like exchange if I have a litter as I cannot keep them all, however this is not my focus - am am not trying to build a business or turn a profit.

The two do not need to be mutually exclusive. One can dictate the terms they enjoy their hobby and dog sports (and do not have to be a clone come that), and one can dictate how they choose to do business when and if it is required.

Some breeders do however breed often enough each year they may come under the banner of business.

In that instance it is no longer a hobby.

But a black and white statement such as that last line cannot be applied to us all.

[RiverStar-Aura]

Some of the responses on this thread have made me so annoyed, and yes, right now Im typing angrily. Would be a wonderful time to go get some fresh air and take my ACD pup for a walk...oh I forgot...I had the nerve to try communicate with an email, therefor not good enough to even be considered to have a pup. Silly me.

Not wanting to be bitchy perth-girl but I can't help but wonder that if you'd put in as much time as you've dedicated to this thread, you may well be on your way to owning a puppy right now. Making a quick phone call (as you were invited to do) to find out more info then saying a quick yes please or no thanks I'm not interested would've resolved all questions you have.

If you don't like how this breeder has handled things then obviously they're not the breeder for you in which case you say "oh well" and move on (ie. get over this breeder and move on). All good breeders, as evidenced by the replies here, will have a set criteria for puppy adoptions and if you're not happy with having to meet their standards then maybe a pure bred pup isn't for you.

So what if you have to do a bit of work, it seems only fair that a buyer needs to put in some effort; after all, the breeder is the one doing most of it: mating the bitch, looking after puppies, microchipping, worming, finding homes etc. And a buyer on the other hand, turns up, pays and takes the pup away. A bit of info about a potential home is the least in my mind.

[Steve]

I wouldn't pay a non-refundable deposit an anything, much less a dog.

Non-refundable has 'come in sucker' written all over it, particularly if the deposit is substantial.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale.

When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000.

Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion.

I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable.

I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already).

But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund.

If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them?

Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty?

I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB"

Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade?

Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply

So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market.

You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs.

I agree with most you have said but disagree with the last line.

I keep dogs as a hobby, this invariably does need some form of business like exchange if I have a litter as I cannot keep them all, however this is not my focus - am am not trying to build a business or turn a profit.

The two do not need to be mutually exclusive. One can dictate the terms they enjoy their hobby and dog sports (and do not have to be a clone come that), and one can dictate how they choose to do business when and if it is required.

Some breeders do however breed often enough each year they may come under the banner of business.

In that instance it is no longer a hobby.

But a black and white statement such as that last line cannot be applied to us all.

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

[Sheridan]

Asking for a deposit before the pups are born isnt a new thing or that un common.

<snippage of the rest of the post>

Just wanted to respond to this bit.

I paid a deposit for my first wheaten terrier puppy. It covered the cost of his travel from South Australia. While I can see that a non-refundable deposit might be profiteering, I would pay a deposit again once I was assured I would be getting a puppy. It seems rather logical to me.

[Steve]

Asking for a deposit before the pups are born isnt a new thing or that un common.

<snippage of the rest of the post>

Just wanted to respond to this bit.

I paid a deposit for my first wheaten terrier puppy. It covered the cost of his travel from South Australia. While I can see that a non-refundable deposit might be profiteering, I would pay a deposit again once I was assured I would be getting a puppy. It seems rather logical to me.

I think its perfectly reasonable for a deposit to be paid when they are on the ground - alive , warm and wriggly - when you actually have the right sex and all the rest in your hand. I think taking deposits before they are even baked to be a bit high risk for my liking. About 20 years ago I offered a breeder a deposit on a pup I had agreed to pay and she said no. When I went back to organise pick up - she had sold it to someone else.

I take a deposit on my puppies when they are around 10 days old but its not non refundable.

[~Anne~]

..............I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB"................

Animal right progpaganda be buggered. Try peer group.

The only people I have ever heard make statements in this regard are breeders. Animal rights groups are more likely to say you shouldn't be breeding at all.

Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade?

Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply

So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market.

You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs.

Well said.

[~Anne~]

amen

So now you agree it should be run like a business

[~Anne~]

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Yes, exactly.

Boxerheart, just a comment - to be a business you do not have to make profit, but that is the usual aim for a business though. Many businesses do not make profit. For example, Charities are run like businesses but they are not about making profit.

Business isn't a dirty word, nor is profit for that matter either.

[Nadine83]

OP, this is just a reply about my personal experience

When I was looking for breeders the first thing I did was visit their sites and read every detail on there. I then emailed the ones I "liked" (like you have done) but with a little more information about me and my family etc. Not too long but a short summary. I then picked a couple of breeders from the ones that I liked the sound of (one breeder was quite rude so she was off my list). I "phoned" them and we had a nice chat. I then visited both of them and decided after my visits who I was happy to go with.

The breeder we chose, we get along with very well. This was quite important to me. She lives 4hrs away whereas the other one was local but I went with my gut instinct and am so happy I did. My research started about 1.5yrs ago and we pick up our pup this Saturday. So it was quite a long process but if you want to find the right breeder then it can take time but it will be well worth the wait!

And I just wanted to add that I wouldn't be buying from a breeder who doesn't provide papers. And I also wouldn't be putting down a deposit until the pups are at least born (we placed ours when the pups were 2 weeks old but it was also refundable in the case that something went wrong).

In regards to the breeder you have posted about, if you are not happy with them then I personally wouldn't pursue it any further. Go with your gut instinct.

Good Luck with finding the right breeder for you

[Boxerheart]

I wouldn't pay a non-refundable deposit an anything, much less a dog.

Non-refundable has 'come in sucker' written all over it, particularly if the deposit is substantial.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale.

When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000.

Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion.

I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable.

I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already).

But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund.

If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them?

Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty?

I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB"

Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade?

Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply

So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market.

You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs.

I agree with most you have said but disagree with the last line.

I keep dogs as a hobby, this invariably does need some form of business like exchange if I have a litter as I cannot keep them all, however this is not my focus - am am not trying to build a business or turn a profit.

The two do not need to be mutually exclusive. One can dictate the terms they enjoy their hobby and dog sports (and do not have to be a clone come that), and one can dictate how they choose to do business when and if it is required.

Some breeders do however breed often enough each year they may come under the banner of business.

In that instance it is no longer a hobby.

But a black and white statement such as that last line cannot be applied to us all.

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Excellent clarification Steve

Thankyou.

[Boxerheart]

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Yes, exactly.

Boxerheart, just a comment - to be a business you do not have to make profit, but that is the usual aim for a business though. Many businesses do not make profit. For example, Charities are run like businesses but they are not about making profit.

Business isn't a dirty word, nor is profit for that matter either.

That is the point...we are neither a CHARITY nor a business and we are classified by the tax office as a HOBBY.

Sure some that do breed in guantities with the purpose of making a profit, or a rescue organisation will be viewed differently but there is a DEFINITIVE DIFFERENCE.

[Steve]

Animal right progpaganda be buggered. Try peer group.

Nup I think it started with animal right/welfare and maybe now some breeders are pushing it but on the whole Im saying ist something pushed by do gooders.

In fact last time I looked the RSPCA had this on their website and it was one of the things the Clover Moore bill attempted to address - breeders advertising.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Steve

[Fleuri]

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Yes, exactly.

Boxerheart, just a comment - to be a business you do not have to make profit, but that is the usual aim for a business though. Many businesses do not make profit. For example, Charities are run like businesses but they are not about making profit.

Business isn't a dirty word, nor is profit for that matter either.

I think thats the problem - that most beeders don't see or want to see themselves as a business, some beeders here are agreeing with some of what Steve said.eg Their right to set a non-refundable deposit.

So it looks like some feel the need to act like a business only when they have to find homes for their dogs. I think some breeders want it both ways because of the demands in their unique hobby.

[~Anne~]

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Yes, exactly.

Boxerheart, just a comment - to be a business you do not have to make profit, but that is the usual aim for a business though. Many businesses do not make profit. For example, Charities are run like businesses but they are not about making profit.

Business isn't a dirty word, nor is profit for that matter either.

That is the point...we are neither a CHARITY nor a business and we are classified by the tax office as a HOBBY.

Sure some that do breed in guantities with the purpose of making a profit, or a rescue organisation will be viewed differently but there is a DEFINITIVE DIFFERENCE.

What the hell are you on about? Of course there is a difference, but who in the hell said you have to breed for profit???

You, along with a few others, need to relax about the word business and profit. Everytime you see it, you start foaming at the mouth almost.

No-one is saying you have to make profit. No-one is saying you have to breed for profit.

I have no idea how to write it more clearly. Perhaps you need to read what Steve has said. She and I are BOTH saying the same thing but in a different way.

[~Anne~]

You misunderstood what I was saying, Behaving in a business like fashion isnt necessarily running a business. Im assuming breeders involved in this topic are not running their dog breeding activities under the banner of business.

However, on one hand we are expected to do what we do with all the trimmings and hallmarks of a hobby.

No business would do what we do because it would mean they were in business to loose money. What business would place a guarantee on a product which included things they have absolutely no control over and promise to be around for its while life? How many businesses would do a quarter of what we as breeders are expected to do? We have pressure put on us about where we advertise and in fact in almost every single area of what we do because we are hobbyists - but we are also expected to behave in a business like structure which is determined by some hidden rules which seem to suit everyone except us.

This particular breeder is asking a small non refundable deposit for people to go on their waiting list - I wouldnt do that but if thats what they have decided they want to do in order to be able to keep the business side of their hobby manageable then if a potential buyer doesnt like it then they will need to shop elsewhere.If that is a pet shop or BYB its their option - their choice but to suggest the breeder should be held accountable completely over looks the fact that no matter how many we breed whether we breed a lot or not many - whether we consider ourselves to be in business or a hobby the supply is not sufficient to fill the demand and breeders have the luxury of putting in place policies which slow the enquiries down and be more selective of where they go.

Would be nice if one of these days we as breeders could just have a discussion about what we might do and consider regarding policies and procedures whether we breed 1 or 20 without the influence of animal rights or point scoring.

Yes, exactly.

Boxerheart, just a comment - to be a business you do not have to make profit, but that is the usual aim for a business though. Many businesses do not make profit. For example, Charities are run like businesses but they are not about making profit.

Business isn't a dirty word, nor is profit for that matter either.

I think thats the problem - that most beeders don't see or want to see themselves as a business, some beeders here are agreeing with some of what Steve said.eg Their right to set a non-refundable deposit.

So it looks like some feel the need to act like a business only when they have to find homes for their dogs. I think some breeders want it both ways because of the demands in their unique hobby.

And maybe that is what it is. Beats me. I find it amazing how defensive people can become when you use the word business and profit. It confuses and amuses me all in one hit. It happens not only in breeding, but also in rescue.

[poodlefan]

And maybe that is what it is. Beats me. I find it amazing how defensive people can become when you use the word business and profit. It confuses and amuses me all in one hit. It happens not only in breeding, but also in rescue.

Maybe its because of the kind of breeder that breeds with profit as the primary motive.