No Wonder Ppl Go To Bybs

[Dxenion]

Slightly OT but as a number of posts are now debating on the business/ hobby status of breeding, this page from the ATO is relevant.

To sum it up:

How to tell if you are in business

You would normally be considered to be in business for tax purposes if you enter into an activity with the intention of running it as a profit-making business, and if the activity is carried out in a way that shows it has a significant commercial purpose and viability.

While tax law does not provide a detailed definition of a business, the following 'business indicators' have been used by various Courts and Tribunals to determine whether a business exists for tax purposes:

Does your activity have a significant commercial purpose or character?

Do you have more than just an intention to engage in business?

Do you have a purpose of profit as well as a prospect of profit?

Is there repetition and regularity to your activity?

Is your activity of the same kind and carried on in a similar manner to businesses in your industry?

Is your activity planned, organised and carried on in a business-like manner?

Does your activity have characteristics of size, scale and permanency?

Would it be true to say your activity is really better described as a business, rather than a hobby, recreation or sporting activity?

These indicators give general guidance as to whether your activity is a business. If your activity does not satisfy all of the indicators it does not automatically mean that it is not a business. However, it is likely that, if you answer 'no' to all these questions, your activity would be considered a hobby.

Back on topic re no wonder people go to BYBs, many people have experienced the same situation as stated in the OP. From this and other threads, the general consensus seems to be that breeders have all sorts of reasons why they may accept or reject the OP's email and that a buyer (especially a first time buyer) may not be aware of the breeder's bigger picture.

Clearer communication may be the key to not losing that perfect puppy buyer who may have looked like a tyre kicker in their original contact. Some breeders are including a contact form on their website which invites the buyer to provide the specific information they are looking for. I think this is a great solution as the buyer then knows exactly what the breeder wants. For those breeders who don't have a website and don't advertise, I wish I had an answer on how to communicate how a buyer should contact you and what information they need to provide in their first contact.

For buyers, the general consensus seems to be that when looking at a pedigree/ purebred puppy, do the research on the breed first and then contact either the breed club via Dogs NSW, Dogs VIC etc and they will be able to link you up with a registered breeder. If the breeder has a website, visit the site and then contact them (via the method indicated on the breeder's website if stated) with some basic information about yourself, asking what further information they need and how they would prefer you communicate further with them.

As a puppy buying customer, you would expect that the breeder would bend over backwards for you but the bigger picture is that they have created a life, invested a considerable amount of time and money to do so and want to ensure that this little wriggling bundle of love goes to the best home possible. It's up to the buyer to show that they are that person, remembering that initially, the breeder doesn't know you from a bar of soap.

If a breeder has certain terms that you don't like (ie no papers, non refundable deposit), go elsewhere. They are unlikely to change the conditions just for you unless they already know you.

The attraction of BYBers, pet shops and puppy farms is that the pup is ready now and that they will bend over backwards for you. The disadvantage is that you may not see the parents, the conditions the pup was brought up in, vaccination records or pedigree paperwork - things that may not matter so much to a buyer who just wants a pet pup. Purebred breeders are up against that in a 'want it now' world.

I believe that communication is the key to matching breeder, pup and buyer and forums like DOL provide an excellent opportunity to do this.

For the OP, although you would prefer a breeder from your home state so that you can see the parents, pups etc, I can say from experience that if there are only one or two breeders in your state and you don't like their terms or their pups aren't what you're looking for, don't give up. Other DOLers have mentioned great breeders interstate and if you wish to see the parents and pups and can't travel interstate to do so, there are other options like receiving videos via email (as I did) or Skype for realtime video viewing. If the breeder is willing to video the parents and pups and send it to you, it's a sure indication that they are someone special. The video emails worked for us and allowed us to view and pick the exact pup we wanted as well as see the dam, the home the pup was brought up in and some of the life experiences the pup had before he came to us.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Dxenion

[Greytmate]

Non-profit business?

Non-profit businesses are not just charities, many are self-interest groups, and would be an excellent model for breeders that want to run very professionally, but not make a profit. Or a loss.

Following a business or a charity or any other model doesn't have to make somebody a clone, but there are tried and tested ways of operating businesses that do work well. Taking deposits on goods made-to-order isn't unusual. Selling products without the proper paperwork isn't a sound practice.

One key point that I have got from this thread is about expectations not being met by either side, many times. Dog breeders should be encouraged to think about running their business as a non-profit business if they want to raise their level of professionalism, and seriously work on their breeding goals. Without any 'guilt trips' about making money out of dogs.

For hobbyists, it would be great if breed clubs could organise a program to promote their breed and find the right new owners who potentially will breed the next generation of dogs. Not all people that breed dogs are suited to be or want to be dog salespeople. I think somebody has already mentioned this idea, and I agree that it could work very well if set up correctly.

[Steve]

Non profit businesses still make a profit they are just restricted on what they can do with that profit. It has to remain within the business and cannot be distributed to share holders and any losses cannot be offset against the office bearers tax accounts. The board cannot profit from the business but the business is expected to profit in order to grow and function.

Sorry I dont agree that no profit businesses are a good model for breeders.

If we want to get technical and talk business entities then when it comes to breeding dogs what the ATO says and whether or not you can claim yoru expenses to reduce your taxable income isnt the main consideration.

Each state has different definitions for the "business of breeding dogs" In NSW for example anyone who ever breeds one puppy is considered to be in the business of breeding dogs.This is a state declaration and regardless of where you live in that state that applies to you. It means if they want to they can force you to apply for a DA to run a business from home - even though the ATO says you are not a business. Even if you breed that pup and give it away.

All breeders in all states are required to keep records, house and treat their animals in a certain way with mandatory codes and or POCTA requirements.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

Non-profit business?

Non-profit businesses are not just charities, many are self-interest groups, and would be an excellent model for breeders that want to run very professionally, but not make a profit. Or a loss.

Following a business or a charity or any other model doesn't have to make somebody a clone, but there are tried and tested ways of operating businesses that do work well. Taking deposits on goods made-to-order isn't unusual. Selling products without the proper paperwork isn't a sound practice.

One key point that I have got from this thread is about expectations not being met by either side, many times. Dog breeders should be encouraged to think about running their business as a non-profit business if they want to raise their level of professionalism, and seriously work on their breeding goals. Without any 'guilt trips' about making money out of dogs.

For hobbyists, it would be great if breed clubs could organise a program to promote their breed and find the right new owners who potentially will breed the next generation of dogs. Not all people that breed dogs are suited to be or want to be dog salespeople. I think somebody has already mentioned this idea, and I agree that it could work very well if set up correctly.

Some years ago at least 2 people I know of were running programs which did exactly this. Screened buyers and found the right breeder - put them in touch and helped with details etc - sort of like an agent.

Even though the actual breeder and buyer completed the deal and payments were made to the breeder they were pushed pretty hard to stop.Since then Fair trading is in the mix so it may be changed but this was also one of the things Clover Moores bill would have made difficult.

Also hobbyists are the least likely to hand over the sale of their animals to a third person.

[Greytmate]

Some years ago at least 2 people I know of were running programs which did exactly this. Screened buyers and found the right breeder - put them in touch and helped with details etc - sort of like an agent.

Even though the actual breeder and buyer completed the deal and payments were made to the breeder they were pushed pretty hard to stop.Since then Fair trading is in the mix so it may be changed but this was also one of the things Clover Moores bill would have made difficult.

Also hobbyists are the least likely to hand over the sale of their animals to a third person.

The sale wouldn't have to be handed over, but the advertisement, initial screening, and a varying level of practical support with the customer service could be.

The idea would have to be worked to fit in with everyone involved.

If breeders are tired of dealing with time wasters, and buyers are tired of being treated like they are a waste of time, there is an opportunity for a stakeholder like a breed club to fill in the gaps a little. If breeders were to pay a subsidy for each pup sold it may be cost effective for them. If well-screened potential buyers were asked to provide a commitment in the form of a deposit in order for the sale to proceed, that deposit could also be used to fund such a program.

While many people don't like the thought of a deposit, we are happy to pay them on all sorts of things if we can see why we should and it's worth it to us. There is no way you could order a large piece of handmade furniture without a deposit, and to me, producing a good dog is a craft that should be at least as highly valued.

[Greytmate]

Some years ago at least 2 people I know of were running programs which did exactly this. Screened buyers and found the right breeder - put them in touch and helped with details etc - sort of like an agent.

Even though the actual breeder and buyer completed the deal and payments were made to the breeder they were pushed pretty hard to stop.Since then Fair trading is in the mix so it may be changed but this was also one of the things Clover Moores bill would have made difficult.

Also hobbyists are the least likely to hand over the sale of their animals to a third person.

The sale wouldn't have to be handed over, but the breed marketing, initial screening, and a varying level of practical support with customer service could be.

The idea would have to be worked to fit in with everyone involved.

If breeders are tired of dealing with time wasters, and buyers are tired of being treated like they are a waste of time, there is an opportunity for a stakeholder like a breed club to fill in the gap by providing a professional service. If breeders were to pay a subsidy for each pup sold it may be cost effective for them. If well-screened potential buyers were asked to provide a commitment in the form of a deposit in order for the sale to proceed, that deposit could also be used to fund such a program.

While many people don't like the thought of a deposit, we are happy to pay them on all sorts of things if we can see why we should and it's worth it to us. There is no way somebody could order a large piece of handmade furniture without a deposit, and to me, producing a good dog is a craft that should be at least as highly valued.

[BCPuppy]

WOW hasnt this got involved!

OP I would like to tell you about my experience. I am in country WA and do not have the luxury of being able to easily visit breeders. When we decided to start looking for a puppy I contacted several around the country expressing our interest and giving them some brief details about ourselves, our lifestyle and expectations.

Most did not reply, some replied they would not have pups available for some time, but we had 3 who invited us to contact them even though they had no pups available. We opened dialogue with all of them, two by email, 1 invited us to telephone and gave us suitable times to ring.

I had long conversation with a lovely lady who asked me heaps of questions about us and how we lived and what we knew of the breed, and answered my many questions too, she would not promise the sex or colour of a pup, but would put us on her waiting list, and explained she preferred to match pups temperment to the buyer and if we decided to go ahead would expect a deposit when the pup was 4 weeks old. She also sent me lots of information by email after she agreed to put us on the list.

The other two breeders had similar dialogue with us by email, one asked us to fill our a form she had prepared with lots of questions on it, we also were priveleged to be put on the waiting list for one of her pups.

ventually after about 4 months I got the wonderful phone call to say 'we have puppies, are you still interested?' From then on we had regular contact from our breeder, allbeit not by email as her computer blew up:), I learnt to guage the right time to telephone as she was often very busy with two litters and a rural property! I also remembered to contact the other breeder to let her know I was an expectant puppy owner and got a lovely email back wishing me lots of luck.

We had to fly our puppy interstate, and she arrived with two other puppies in the most deluxe cage you have ever seen, right down to the bumper pads around the sides, the breeder was in constant sms contact with me from leaving home in Queensland, to putting them on the plane, and so happy when they arrived in Perth safe and sound. We send photoes every few months and we received her limited papers once we sent evidence she was speyed.

I understood that breeders put lots of time and effort into their pups and only want the best for them, also that many of them are very busy and receive lots of enquiries from tyre kickers. I was willing to prove to the breeder that I was worthy of one of their pups, expecially for a working breed that I had little experience of. I had to have patience when the breeders computer blew up and could not get any pictures, and the fact that she had a life too and a busy one at that, and an anxious puppy buyer was not top of the priority list:D

OP Please take a deep breath and cut some slack, if you do not get a reply move on and keep trying, there are wonderful people out there who will be more than willing to help you with your desire for a pup, get to know them and go all out to convince them you are the right person for a pup that they have invested much time and love. Have patience and remember that there are more prospective owners than there are puppies.

Our breeder found the best match for us in a pup, she is the most loving laid back little girl, and we love her dearly.

[Miranda]

I am perfectly happy to deal with enquiries and find suitable buyers, I would not be prepared to hand over any part of the selling procedure to someone else. Sure it can be a hassle sometimes, but it's all part of breeding and something I'd prefer to do myself, after all I brought the puppies into the world, therefore their future is my responsibility. BTW I don't ask for deposits, mainly because I don't want to have an obligation to provide a puppy, quite often an initial enquiry can go well, but on meeting the buyer personally sometimes it is quite obvious that the person isn't suitable.

[Greytmate]

I am perfectly happy to deal with enquiries and find suitable buyers, I would not be prepared to hand over any part of the selling procedure to someone else. Sure it can be a hassle sometimes, but it's all part of breeding and something I'd prefer to do myself, after all I brought the puppies into the world, therefore their future is my responsibility. BTW I don't ask for deposits, mainly because I don't want to have an obligation to provide a puppy, quite often an initial enquiry can go well, but on meeting the buyer personally sometimes it is quite obvious that the person isn't suitable.

Sadly, not all breeders have as well-rounded talents as you do Miranda.

As long as breeders breed really good dogs and aim for excellence in that, they should be given whatever encouragement and support is necessary to assist with that hobby. In the same way that clubs put effort into exhibition of dogs and measuring excellence, they could also provide more assistance with attracting and qualifying the right buyers for the breed. Ultimately, because these are dogs and not retail products, the seller should remain in control of the process and make the decisions based on their own criteria.

With Perthgirls' email, she did not get a good rate of response for whatever reason. But what if she was potentially the best future breeder ever of dogs, and just lacked a few communication skills? What if her customer service expectations were inadvertently too high because she has never bought an animal from somebody not motivated by profit before? She thought her email was great. Friendly and enthusiastic, to the point and asking questions (that were not stupid), she had no idea of why she got little response. Hence her frustration.

I just feel that we need more good purebreed owners and breeders, and at the moment this thread is highlighting a major challenge to that. It doesn't hurt to explore options, and build on or refine ideas that others put forward here.

[Inevitablue]

It was a few pages back when I mentioned my experience buying a stafford pup.

I rang the NSW SBT breed club and simply asked if she knew who had litters on the ground, particularly anyone with a pied brindle bitch. It was so easy, I didn't have to ring around multiple breeders who had no plans for litters that year etc etc.

That was the extent of the help she provided, a list of phone numbers. However I know that if I had have asked if a SBT was suitable for our situation, what they were like with kids....etc....etc... then she would have given me 10min of her time happily.

I didn't expect the breed club to broker the sale, but it was fantastic when they enabled me to only contact breeders who had bitches in whelp, or litters on the ground.

Perhaps the more popular breed clubs could invest in websites which are solely dedicated to educating the public about the breed, suitability, health problems to look for (ie...non rare colours) and they could extend that further where members had the provision to advise when they were next planning a litter. Now this is just for Joe Public, obviously if you are looking for the next Gr Ch then the process would be very different, but then those buyers are not the sort who would need help on where to go

EDIT: also on the website breeders could mention things important to them such as -

1. I only sell my pup's to experienced owners

2. I dont sell to people in apartments

These are just examples and the breeder only added specific information if they were sick of talking to the 'wrong' prospective buyers

Edited March 29, 2011 by Jakemon

[Rebanne]

funnily enough I had a phone call just this week from someone asking about buying a Staffy pup and I don't even breed them.

But the caller was doing her homework, she had been to the club website and she rang Vic Dog. As she lives up my way and there is 2 Champ shows on this weekend it was suggested she ring me, which she did, we had a lovely 25 minute chat, and her family will be coming to the show to meet some dogs. Told her all about the 3 shows in a fortnights time as well in case they don't make it to ours. Also suggested she check out DOL's Breed 101 forum.

so staffy owners/breeders in Nth East Vic, Southern NSW there may be someone visiting you soon. :D

[shortstep]

funnily enough I had a phone call just this week from someone asking about buying a Staffy pup and I don't even breed them.

But the caller was doing her homework, she had been to the club website and she rang Vic Dog. As she lives up my way and there is 2 Champ shows on this weekend it was suggested she ring me, which she did, we had a lovely 25 minute chat, and her family will be coming to the show to meet some dogs. Told her all about the 3 shows in a fortnights time as well in case they don't make it to ours. Also suggested she check out DOL's Breed 101 forum.

so staffy owners/breeders in Nth East Vic, Southern NSW there may be someone visiting you soon. :D

That is an interesting way for calls to Vic Dogs from people looking for breeder referrals to be handled.

[Rebanne]

funnily enough I had a phone call just this week from someone asking about buying a Staffy pup and I don't even breed them.

But the caller was doing her homework, she had been to the club website and she rang Vic Dog. As she lives up my way and there is 2 Champ shows on this weekend it was suggested she ring me, which she did, we had a lovely 25 minute chat, and her family will be coming to the show to meet some dogs. Told her all about the 3 shows in a fortnights time as well in case they don't make it to ours. Also suggested she check out DOL's Breed 101 forum.

so staffy owners/breeders in Nth East Vic, Southern NSW there may be someone visiting you soon. :D

That is an interesting way for calls to Vic Dogs from people looking for breeder referrals to be handled.

They weren't looking for breeder referrals as such. I understood from the conversation that they were asking Vic Dogs what shows were around that they could go to. KCC park was suggested to them as well. But our shows are much, much closer. By about 4 hours My mobile is plastered every where so it didn't bother me. Told them to come find me and I would take them around.

Point was they are a puppy buyer putting in some work to try and get a good dog of the breed they want.

[Steve]

I am perfectly happy to deal with enquiries and find suitable buyers, I would not be prepared to hand over any part of the selling procedure to someone else. Sure it can be a hassle sometimes, but it's all part of breeding and something I'd prefer to do myself, after all I brought the puppies into the world, therefore their future is my responsibility. BTW I don't ask for deposits, mainly because I don't want to have an obligation to provide a puppy, quite often an initial enquiry can go well, but on meeting the buyer personally sometimes it is quite obvious that the person isn't suitable.

Sadly, not all breeders have as well-rounded talents as you do Miranda.

As long as breeders breed really good dogs and aim for excellence in that, they should be given whatever encouragement and support is necessary to assist with that hobby. In the same way that clubs put effort into exhibition of dogs and measuring excellence, they could also provide more assistance with attracting and qualifying the right buyers for the breed. Ultimately, because these are dogs and not retail products, the seller should remain in control of the process and make the decisions based on their own criteria.

With Perthgirls' email, she did not get a good rate of response for whatever reason. But what if she was potentially the best future breeder ever of dogs, and just lacked a few communication skills? What if her customer service expectations were inadvertently too high because she has never bought an animal from somebody not motivated by profit before? She thought her email was great. Friendly and enthusiastic, to the point and asking questions (that were not stupid), she had no idea of why she got little response. Hence her frustration.

I just feel that we need more good purebreed owners and breeders, and at the moment this thread is highlighting a major challenge to that. It doesn't hurt to explore options, and build on or refine ideas that others put forward here.

Good points but there are several sub issues in this topic and I think this is one of them.

I dont think its even about selling something if you are not motivated by profit - in fact for all we know this breeder may be motivated by profit and thats why she wants a deposit before she cooks the puppy. We dont know how she speaks to or treats people who she may sell a puppy to because she hasnt been contacted. She may have fantastic customer relation skills and she may be eager to sell PG a puppy on her terms.

The over riding issue is that because some breeders put the type of conditions of sale on how they operate that this leads to "no wonder people go to BYB."

In all honesty it really is about supply and demand. If breeders had dozens of puppies on the ground and couldnt find homes for them if they were being too difficult to deal with or not responding to emails or being too selective on communication criteria you would see a change. If this breeder in particular has a litter of puppies and no deposits until after they are born then its not going to hurt her unless that policy prevents too many enquiries being made and they have these puppies at an age where they should be going to their new homes and no sales. Then the breeder would work out its not such a good idea and take that restriction down from her website.

I also think we need more purebred owners but we dont have enough purebred breeders and we dont have enough purebred puppies and it gets less every day.

We see people calling for promotion of pure breds and a push for people to come to us to buy puppies as the preferred source. We have devolped all kinds of mythology surrounding what a registered breeder is and the miraculous things they can control and do for their puppies and their buyers. We have expectations on how often they will breed and denigrate anyone even remotely perceived as breeding "too many" "too often" "for the pet market" or in anyway motivated by profit.

Anne is right and much of this today is about peer pressure but there is much more to the story - again another topic.

Based on current politics and numbers in the purebred dog world of breeders I dont think anyone offering a service as you have suggested would have much business.

Breeders dont care if they have poor communication skills because if someone wants a puppy badly enough they will put up with that and they dont care if hundreds of great puppy buyers never get a dog because they have enough to sell their puppies to. Why do they care if someone buys a puppy from a BYB or a pet shop as long as they sell theirs to those who jump through hoops with pike.

Im not commenting on what I think about all of this - again another topic but sooner or later there has to be an Ah Ha moment where we get that there isnt enough purebred puppies to go around. Promoting them simply means more breeders can and will do what suits them and not what sells puppies more quickly or more easily.

[nikkid]

I have followed this thread with interest. I have to agree. If this person can't even be bothered making a phone call I don't understand why she is so angry.

I've not had a problem buying from breeders. I got a puppy late last year from a wonderful breeder - didn't have any issues at all.

If you have a problem with one breeder, wouldn't you just try a different one? If emails aren't working, try the phone!

Personally my next dog would be from a rescue group - these dogs aren't flawed, they've just had a rough start to life.

Just let us know what the critera is and adjust our expectations.

And respond to emails and return phone calls. Assume every message could be a good home. Courtesy even for the time wasters who have done no research.

So if we agree we all want the same outcome (healthy registered puppies in good homes), how do we move forward from the blame and finger pointing?

What can breeders do, and what can puppy buyers do?

the OP was given that particular breeders critera with an invite to call the breeder. Instead they came here ranting about how bad the breeder was which turned into a general free for all bash the breeder thread - again!

All breeders will have different critera, there is no one size fits all. Some will sell to homes that others wouldn't touch with a barge pole. No good coming on here moaning and groaning that a breeder didn't reply to me sob sob. Move on to the next one. Just because they are on DOL does not mean they are the best or the most ethical. Plenty of breeders don't advertise on here. Look for breed clubs. Ring your state canine body. Keep asking and yes be prepared to sell your self.