No Wonder Ppl Go To Bybs

[~Anne~]

I wouldn't pay a non-refundable deposit an anything, much less a dog.

Non-refundable has 'come in sucker' written all over it, particularly if the deposit is substantial.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale.

When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000.

Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion.

I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable.

I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already).

[whippets]

the trade? The sooner pet buyers realise that ethical registered purebred breeders are NOT businesses the better. If that drives the pet buying people to BYB and/or pet shops.....well so be it. The disgusting conditions that these dogs are raised in and the little thought involved with BYB dogs can lay on the shoulders of pet buyer who is to tight to pay a deposit on a pup.

[~Anne~]

the trade? The sooner pet buyers realise that ethical registered purebred breeders are NOT businesses the better. If that drives the pet buying people to BYB and/or pet shops.....well so be it. The disgusting conditions that these dogs are raised in and the little thought involved with BYB dogs can lay on the shoulders of pet buyer who is to tight to pay a deposit on a pup.

The sooner breeders realise it needs to be treated like a business the better.

[whippets]

well I'm sure you don't mind putting pups on "layby" then. That is non-refundable

[Staff'n'Toller]

well I'm sure you don't mind putting pups on "layby" then. That is non-refundable

Lay-by's are refundable less the order processing cost which is in the vicinity of $10.

Breeders wanting non-refundable deposits are wanting to be paid for the time on email/phone vetting prospective buyers - that much is quite clear.

I would pay a non-refundable dep AFTER I have met the Dam and hopefully the Sire, and the breeder and AFTER being provided with documentation about what happens with my money in the non-event of a pup out of the prospective litter i.e. my money is refunded or carries over to the next litter.

You are selling livestock, you (generally) have a registered domestic animal business, you are a business just like any other livestock business. You can't take peoples money for no service or product and not refund it.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[Aussienot]

Which of these statement is true?

Potential puppy buyers are impatient, with unrealistic expectations, lack knowedge and are unsuitable homes

Breeders have unrealistic and hidden expectations of puppy buyers and since being burned by time wasters in the past now refuse to extend common courtesy to strangers.

Put "some" in front of each of those statements, and they are both true some of the time. There are very few absolutes, and on both sides people are on a spectrum of expectations and communication skills. Which will only end in frustration if only one person is communicating.

I know most breeders put their hearts and souls into the puppys they breed, and they are right to vet homes and make as sure as they can the pups only go to suitable homes. I feel honoured by the two breeders who initially didn't know me from a bar of soap, but at least responded to me and let me start the conversation. I appreciate the breeders on here who do respond to emails and telephone calls because I've experienced stone cold silence 50% of the time.

It doesn't have to be a Yes. It can simply be "No puppies until next year" or "Can't promise a purple male with white paws, let's see what hits the ground and talk then". " Or "Sorry, these pups are only going to show homes, try XYZ breeder who might have what you are looking for.

Unless breeders want to keep all the pups they breed, or they already know everyone they will sell to, they have to deal with the public, as ugly and stupid as people can be. A percentage will actually be the perfect home. But you'll never know unless you respond. And sales of registered dogs will continue to decline.

And unless puppy buyers are willing to settle for poorly bred, profit driven imitations of what a dog should be, they will have to accept that there are criteria to qualify for ownership and that you can't always get what you want immediately. Just let us know what the critera is and adjust our expectations.

And respond to emails and return phone calls. Assume every message could be a good home. Courtesy even for the time wasters who have done no research.

So if we agree we all want the same outcome (healthy registered puppies in good homes), how do we move forward from the blame and finger pointing?

What can breeders do, and what can puppy buyers do?

Edited March 25, 2011 by Aussienot

[Rebanne]

Just let us know what the critera is and adjust our expectations.

And respond to emails and return phone calls. Assume every message could be a good home. Courtesy even for the time wasters who have done no research.

So if we agree we all want the same outcome (healthy registered puppies in good homes), how do we move forward from the blame and finger pointing?

What can breeders do, and what can puppy buyers do?

the OP was given that particular breeders critera with an invite to call the breeder. Instead they came here ranting about how bad the breeder was which turned into a general free for all bash the breeder thread - again!

All breeders will have different critera, there is no one size fits all. Some will sell to homes that others wouldn't touch with a barge pole. No good coming on here moaning and groaning that a breeder didn't reply to me sob sob. Move on to the next one. Just because they are on DOL does not mean they are the best or the most ethical. Plenty of breeders don't advertise on here. Look for breed clubs. Ring your state canine body. Keep asking and yes be prepared to sell your self.

[Greytmate]

Which of these statement is true?

Potential puppy buyers are impatient, with unrealistic expectations, lack knowedge and are unsuitable homes

Breeders have unrealistic and hidden expectations of puppy buyers and since being burned by time wasters in the past now refuse to extend common courtesy to strangers.

Put "some" in front of each of those statements, and they are both true some of the time. There are very few absolutes, and on both sides people are on a spectrum of expectations and communication skills. Which will only end in frustration if only one person is communicating.

I know most breeders put their hearts and souls into the puppys they breed, and they are right to vet homes and make as sure as they can the pups only go to suitable homes. I feel honoured by the two breeders who initially didn't know me from a bar of soap, but at least responded to me and let me start the conversation. I appreciate the breeders on here who do respond to emails and telephone calls because I've experienced stone cold silence 50% of the time.

It doesn't have to be a Yes. It can simply be "No puppies until next year" or "Can't promise a purple male with white paws, let's see what hits the ground and talk then". " Or "Sorry, these pups are only going to show homes, try XYZ breeder who might have what you are looking for.

Unless breeders want to keep all the pups they breed, or they already know everyone they will sell to, they have to deal with the public, as ugly and stupid as people can be. A percentage will actually be the perfect home. But

And unless puppy buyers are willing to settle for poorly bred, profit driven imitations of what a dog should be, they will have to accept that there are criteria to qualify for ownership and that you can't always get what you want immediately. Just let us know what the critera is and adjust our expectations.

And respond to emails and return phone calls. Assume every message could be a good home. Courtesy even for the time wasters who have done no research.

So if we agree we all want the same outcome (healthy registered puppies in good homes), how do we move forward from the blame and finger pointing?

What can breeders do, and what can puppy buyers do?

The questions that Perthgirl was asking would never get a reply like that, because she didn't ask for that information and didn't offer any information that would allow a breeder to have any idea of what she is looking for.

Seriously this whole topic is about miscommunication, and Perthgirl has to realise that if you ask a question that requires a long and complicated reply, you lessen the chance of getting any reply at all.

We are people first, and then dog owners , buyers or sellers after that.

I liked your post.

[whippets]

Which of these statement is true?

Potential puppy buyers are impatient, with unrealistic expectations, lack knowedge and are unsuitable homes

Breeders have unrealistic and hidden expectations of puppy buyers and since being burned by time wasters in the past now refuse to extend common courtesy to strangers.

Put "some" in front of each of those statements, and they are both true some of the time. There are very few absolutes, and on both sides people are on a spectrum of expectations and communication skills. Which will only end in frustration if only one person is communicating.

I know most breeders put their hearts and souls into the puppys they breed, and they are right to vet homes and make as sure as they can the pups only go to suitable homes. I feel honoured by the two breeders who initially didn't know me from a bar of soap, but at least responded to me and let me start the conversation. I appreciate the breeders on here who do respond to emails and telephone calls because I've experienced stone cold silence 50% of the time.

It doesn't have to be a Yes. It can simply be "No puppies until next year" or "Can't promise a purple male with white paws, let's see what hits the ground and talk then". " Or "Sorry, these pups are only going to show homes, try XYZ breeder who might have what you are looking for.

Unless breeders want to keep all the pups they breed, or they already know everyone they will sell to, they have to deal with the public, as ugly and stupid as people can be. A percentage will actually be the perfect home. But

And unless puppy buyers are willing to settle for poorly bred, profit driven imitations of what a dog should be, they will have to accept that there are criteria to qualify for ownership and that you can't always get what you want immediately. Just let us know what the critera is and adjust our expectations.

And respond to emails and return phone calls. Assume every message could be a good home. Courtesy even for the time wasters who have done no research.

So if we agree we all want the same outcome (healthy registered puppies in good homes), how do we move forward from the blame and finger pointing?

What can breeders do, and what can puppy buyers do?

Excellent post.

I have very strict criteria for homes, purchase agreement (which includes desexing) which is very fair. Some (and I've said this from the word go SOME) potential puppy buyers are so egotistical and pretty much throw a tanty when they don't get what they want or I refuse to sell them a dog. Makes it even worse when they go somewhere else and buy a puppy that is left alone for 7 hrs a day (a big nono for me) with no companionship. So because they are able to get a dog from somewhere else I am, of course, the big bad mean breeder with unrealistic expectations.

I don't run this as an animal business....my dogs are more than just mere "livestock"......and if "some" puppy buyers view the purchase of one of my dogs compared to buying a fridge or cattle for the back paddock.....then yes please, go somewhere else.

With that said I have wonderful puppy owners who frequent with emails and photos of their dogs sprawled out over the bed. Owners like that are gold.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Which of these statement is true?

Potential puppy buyers are impatient, with unrealistic expectations, lack knowedge and are unsuitable homes

Breeders have unrealistic and hidden expectations of puppy buyers and since being burned by time wasters in the past now refuse to extend common courtesy to strangers.

Put "some" in front of each of those statements, and they are both true some of the time. There are very few absolutes, and on both sides people are on a spectrum of expectations and communication skills. Which will only end in frustration if only one person is communicating.

I know most breeders put their hearts and souls into the puppys they breed, and they are right to vet homes and make as sure as they can the pups only go to suitable homes. I feel honoured by the two breeders who initially didn't know me from a bar of soap, but at least responded to me and let me start the conversation. I appreciate the breeders on here who do respond to emails and telephone calls because I've experienced stone cold silence 50% of the time.

It doesn't have to be a Yes. It can simply be "No puppies until next year" or "Can't promise a purple male with white paws, let's see what hits the ground and talk then". " Or "Sorry, these pups are only going to show homes, try XYZ breeder who might have what you are looking for.

Unless breeders want to keep all the pups they breed, or they already know everyone they will sell to, they have to deal with the public, as ugly and stupid as people can be. A percentage will actually be the perfect home. But

And unless puppy buyers are willing to settle for poorly bred, profit driven imitations of what a dog should be, they will have to accept that there are criteria to qualify for ownership and that you can't always get what you want immediately. Just let us know what the critera is and adjust our expectations.

And respond to emails and return phone calls. Assume every message could be a good home. Courtesy even for the time wasters who have done no research.

So if we agree we all want the same outcome (healthy registered puppies in good homes), how do we move forward from the blame and finger pointing?

What can breeders do, and what can puppy buyers do?

Excellent post.

I have very strict criteria for homes, purchase agreement (which includes desexing) which is very fair. Some (and I've said this from the word go SOME) potential puppy buyers are so egotistical and pretty much throw a tanty when they don't get what they want or I refuse to sell them a dog. Makes it even worse when they go somewhere else and buy a puppy that is left alone for 7 hrs a day (a big nono for me) with no companionship. So because they are able to get a dog from somewhere else I am, of course, the big bad mean breeder with unrealistic expectations.

I don't run this as an animal business....my dogs are more than just mere "livestock"......and if "some" puppy buyers view the purchase of one of my dogs compared to buying a fridge or cattle for the back paddock.....then yes please, go somewhere else.

With that said I have wonderful puppy owners who frequent with emails and photos of their dogs sprawled out over the bed. Owners like that are gold.

I don't look at my dogs as livestock either, but when it comes down to the bare bones, that is what you are selling. You have terms of sale that's fine, but you are SELLING something. You are taking money in exchange for 'goods' and whether or not you profit from it in the final analysis, or whether it's a part-time concern is of no consequence. It is still a business transaction with another party.

If you are not refunding the deposit, but not producing a puppy for sale - what do you deem the deposit being for? That was my point.

[~Anne~]

There is a difference between treating animals as products and running a breeding program as though it was or is a business. I treated my rescue as a business but that didn't mean that I looked at the dogs coming through as commodities or 'livestock'. They were real life little Pugs who had their own particular needs and I cared for them and re-homed them in that way.

Talk about get hung up on a the word "trade" and "business".

By and large, purebred breeders are a dying breed. I think this is partly because of the out of date views and a refusal to see life in any other way.

Breeding isn't ever going to be easy. Not only do you have to understand the science behind what you are creating and developing, but you also have to understand the basic business principles of pricing, marketing and sale.

You can tie yourself in knots all you like about the words trade or business or any other word, but when it comes down to it, you are actually selling a product that the market wants to buy. If we want to show that purebred dogs are superior, than we may need to look at different approaches. The same ol' same ol' just 'aint working anymore.

Edited March 25, 2011 by ~Anne~

[shortstep]

I asked the OP way back at the beginning of this thread, if the breeder was a ANKC registered breeder?

The fact they are offering puppies with no papers, is not good in my mind and may be because the parents are not registered or because the breeders is not registerd.

In this is case it would mean that all this fuss about this breeders email, deposits, and so on might all be about a breeder that is not an ANKC breeder at all !!

So I ask again, has the OP found out if this breeder is operating within the ANKC system? Is she a registered breeder with a prefix in ANKC?

Or, is she not in ANKC and is selling unregistered pets or perhaps farm dogs?

BTW can the OP please say exactly what a BYB is and what it is about this breeder that is known to her that makes her not a BYB?

[whippets]

There is a difference between treating animals as products and running a breeding program as though it was or is a business. I treated my rescue as a business but that didn't mean that I looked at the dogs coming through as commodities or 'livestock'. They were real life little Pugs that had their own particular needs and I cared for them and re-homed them in that way.

Talk about get hung up on a the word "trade" and "business".

By and large, purebred breeders are a dying breed. I think this is partly because of the out of date views and a refusal to see life in any other way.

Breeding isn't ever going to be easy. Not only do you have to understand the science behind what you are creating and developing, but you also have to understand the basic business principles of pricing, marketing and sale.

You can tie yourself in knots all you like about the words trade or business or any other word, but when it comes down to it, you are actually selling a product that the market wants to buy. If we want to show that purebred dogs are superior, than we may need to look at different approaches. The same ol' same ol' just 'aint working anymore.

what a load of rot.

Kind of funny getting business lessons when I am 3rd year B of Commerce "marketing major" (B of Nursing as well but that is irrelevant). Just because someone doesn't share the same view as you doesn't mean they are wrong. Purebred dogs are superior and many breeders (me included) work damned hard to find the most suitable homes for their dogs. That is the difference between breeding dogs as a hobby and running a business where the end result of target marketing is the sale. If you can't clue in on that gem you never will. I wasn't put on this earth to meet the increasing demands of the consumer by breeding dogs. It's a hobby. With that said I don't have dogs sitting in my backyard weeks on end because I can't find homes for them. Never had that issue.

If potential puppy buyers go off and buy a BYB dog or pet shop dog well that lays on their shoulders. I'm sick to death of people blaming registered breeders for their choices of buying a BYB/pet shop dog.

Edited March 25, 2011 by whippets

[~Anne~]

I wasn't giving a 'business lesson', I was offering my opinion as you offered yours. I don't have the time nor the inclination to give business lessons over the internet on a discussion forum.

I will repeat this though;

You can tie yourself in knots all you like about the words trade or business or any other word, but when it comes down to it, you are actually selling a product that the market wants to buy. If we want to show that purebred dogs are superior, than we may need to look at different approaches. The same ol' same ol' just 'aint working anymore.

Hobby, business or whatever, you sell a product (puppies) that consumers (the public) buy. To me, that is trading. The law, to my knowledge, also considers what you do, when it comes to consumer rights, a trade.

I understand that it seems to upset people when their hobby, that they do for the good feelings of course, is considerd in any commerical way. Money exchanges hands though. Don't dare mention profit either. P r o f i t is a despicable word in the dog world. You're meant to run your breeding program from the smell of an oily rag and run at a loss otherwise you can not wear your badge of honour about how dedicated you are to the cause.

An over dramatisation? Of course it is. Sometimes a dramatic view on things are needed though.

Jump on me all you like, I'll always be here and I will always state what I think.

[~Anne~]

what a load of rot.

Kind of funny getting business lessons when I am 3rd year B of Commerce "marketing major" (B of Nursing as well but that is irrelevant). Just because someone doesn't share the same view as you doesn't mean they are wrong. Purebred dogs are superior and many breeders (me included) work damned hard to find the most suitable homes for their dogs. That is the difference between breeding dogs as a hobby and running a business where the end result of target marketing is the sale. If you can't clue in on that gem you never will. I wasn't put on this earth to meet the increasing demands of the consumer by breeding dogs. It's a hobby. With that said I don't have dogs sitting in my backyard weeks on end because I can't find homes for them. Never had that issue.

If potential puppy buyers go off and buy a BYB dog or pet shop dog well that lays on their shoulders. I'm sick to death of people blaming registered breeders for their choices of buying a BYB/pet shop dog.

Sorry, I just thought I would highlight this too.... kinf of funny don't you think?

[Aussienot]

As a puppy buyer, I think all responsible breeders, even the "hobby" ones, are selling something. Not the puppies, but themselves as a reputable breeder. You are selling your experience in the breed and knowledge of breed standard and type, you are selling your selection of lines and breeding pairs, your focus on health and temperament, you are selling your care of the birth process from mating to litter, your work on puppy development and you are selling your genetic and health testing. You are selling the breed and the qualities that you love about it. You are selling your ability to produce sound and healthy pups.

It's the wisdom, passion and hard work that separates registered breeders from bybs. Your reputation is your greatest asset, If you don't sell that, and make me understand why all you do is important, then to the buyer there's really no difference where you get your puppy except the registration paper and pedigree.

[OSoSwift]

your email was replied to with an invite to ring. You choose not to ring.

You do yourself no favours with this rant

Not my intention to do myself any favours. My intention to get some breeders to understand where the majority of buyers are coming from, but it seems that just wont happen.

Once again, I will not be calling this breeder, because I do not wish to give away a non-refundable deposit on a pup I have not seen, and has not even been born, so can people stop telling me to call them.

Ringing them does not automatically drop $100 into their account. You can call and talk to them if they refuse to talk to you unless you give them money, then yep they can go jump. Maybe they use that line to try and get rid of tyre kickers??

But as you haven't called you will not know. What's a phone call going to cost?? 25c or there abouts.

[Boxerheart]

Funny ...many businesses take a non refundable deposits. If you commission a trailer or something to be manufactured. Many businesses also charge full fees for no show appointments Doctors, dentists and the like. You can book a holiday on an early saver fare, and it is often non refundable and unchangeable. I see no problem if it is agreed by two parties verbally or written that a deposit is non refundable. Buyers consent is in the exchange of money.

After being stuffed around by change of mind buyers with my last litter who did not tell me they had gone elsewhere and I had turned people away and wasted weeks leading up to the litter mentoring them, I was stuck re advertising. There after I took a 20% non refundable "Holding" deposit (Which became part of the purchase price). ie .It was refundable if anything happened to said pup in my care, or if the vet check proved it unfit for the sale, but non refundable if the buyer changed their mind and wanted a sch-noodle instead. Their arms weren't broken, they wanted the dog reserved no one had a problem.

To be a business you have to turn a profit (most breeders do not), and to be a worker bee and work for someone else..you have to get paid. Interesting how many out there there expect us to commit hours of our time for nothing, and shy away from a deposit which is not even 2 cartons of beer or a small grocery order.

My holding deposit is a bond on my time, my effort, my knowledge and lastly the puppy.

[persephone]

Wow- 12 pages !

Perthgirl.. I'm afraid I agree with this post

Ringing them does not automatically drop $100 into their account. You can call and talk to them. If they refuse to talk to you unless you give them money, then yep they can go jump. Maybe they use that line to try and get rid of tyre kickers??

But as you haven't called you will not know. What's a phone call going to cost?? 25c or there abouts.

if you do not like what you hear- simply hang up and try elsewhere !

[Steve]

I wouldn't pay a non-refundable deposit an anything, much less a dog.

Non-refundable has 'come in sucker' written all over it, particularly if the deposit is substantial.

Yep I would agree with that but I can see why a deposit may be non refundable if the breeder is providing something other than the pup at the time of deposit which would be saleable - such as their puppy pack or if the breeder is passing up sales because they think that one is taken. If someone pulls out at th elast minute then they have to pay extra for advertising etc to find a replacement sale.

When I was breeding Ragdoll kittens I took non refundable deposits on my pet kittens. That was because if a kitten was going home as a pet it was desexed 2 weeks before it went home.That obviously meant that I couldnt then sell it as a breeding cat if the buyer changed their mind. A pet kitten back then was around $650 and a breeding kitten up to $2000.

Sure, I can understand that the breeder may be left with an animal, however, that comes with the trade in my opinion.

I would certainly ask for a deposit, without question, but I would not make it non-refundable.

I can't even imagine it is legal to not refund the money if the sale goes through?? (sorry if this has been mentioned somehwere here already).

But who says it has to come as a risk of the "trade" When I book a photographer I pay a non refundable deposit because Ive booked them for a certain day which has made them miss a potential job if I pull out. If I book an entertainer I have to pay them a non refundable deposit at the time I book them - could be a year in advance and its half of what they will be paid and then I have to pay them the full amount weeks before they even arrive.I dont get an option of a refund.

If breeders are to behave in a business like fashion - and I agree they should, who is going to determine the terms of trade? Isnt it up to each of us to determine what conditions we will put on to take an order or fill an order, pre and after sales service and warranties? Isnt it then up to each of us as to how many we manufacture, what price we charge , where we sell them?

Are we not able to decide our own business hours and how and when we will respond to enquiries? Whether we place a 7 day warranty or a 10 year warranty?

I look on the net and animal rights propoganda tells me that a good breeder doesnt need to advertise - that they dont breed a litter unless they have definite orders for their puppies.Its a bad thing to advertise in newspapers or on those websites etc. Some breeders have a terrible time if they need to find homes for puppies after they are born in trying to find a way of selling them without getting bagged out because they were bad breeders and didnt have homes before they were bred. Yet we see one breeder who is taking orders before she goes into manufacture them and a "no wonder people go to BYB"

Any one who has been breeding dogs for more than a minute knows that we can have a waiting list as long as your arm and "definite" orders until you go back to say you have a puppy for sale. Should I be judged as somehow un ethical if I live in a state where its O.K. not give out papers and I dont provide them and suit some one else's idea of terms of trade?

Should a registered purebred breeder care if someone goes to a BYB? Not likely while ever we have more demand than supply

So we cant have it both ways - if we are to behave in a business like fashion we get to say how our business will be run. If there is more supply than demand then Im sure breeders will adjust their business terms of trade to entice a greater part of the puppy buying market.

You cant have it both ways - its either a hobby where we all act like clones and do as we are directed by what is generated as supposedly ethical or conventional behaviour or we determine our own terms of trade suited to our own needs and breeding programs.