No Wonder Ppl Go To Bybs

[gidg]

Yes, I want to say good luck too.

I emailed close to 50 breeders in my recent search for a puppy, most replied and were very helpful.

Good luck!

[dancinbcs]

Here is where Im at....

I want an ACD puppy. A purebred ACD puppy.Have been looking for the right one for months. Thought I would do the right thing and go through a breeder. I would prefer to get one from WA because at least then I can go and look at the pups for myself and meet the breeder. I dont want a pup with a thousand bells and whistles. I want an ACD that is healthy and happy. Thats it.

Can a breeder please tell me what is wrong with that?

I recently had to put down my best friend of 8 years. A 12yr old boxer that I rescued from the pound. I have plenty of room in my house, a child, everything a dog needs, and all the love to give it. Why the hell would I be not worthy?

In answer to a PP, I didnt write this thread just to complain. I wrote it so that breeders could see what it looks like from the outside and understand why some people throw their hands up and look elsewhere for a companion. I believe that sometimes the breeders cant see the forest through the trees. I get it...you, as a breeder, dont have to. Your doing just fine. You have wait lists for your puppies and dont need my 'business'.....doesnt mean that I would be an unfit home for one of your dogs.

The problem with the reply you got was that it may be from a registered breeder but not a reputable one. Asking a deposit before puppies are even planned is not the norm and buying a puppy without papers means you have no guarantee the dog is even a purebred. Stay well away from this "breeder" and try to find a reputable one that will talk to you, ask and answer questions. Don't lump all registered breeders into the same basket with this one. When you find a reputable breeder you will work out the difference. If you really want a WA puppy, go to some shows, meet some breeders and their dogs and enquire about future litters. Remember a lot of good breeders only breed one litter every year or two so they don't just have puppies waiting. If you find someone you like they may even refer you to someone with a related litter, if they won't be breeding for a while. That is what we do in my breed.

You don't need a puppy with "bells and whistles" but you do need one with a really good temperament that has been tested for deafness and is from parents tested for PRA and without patella problems. Hip and elbow scoring of the parents would be good as well. For some reason people are reluctant to buy from show breeders when they want a pet but the best temperament and healthiest puppies usually come from the show breeders who dedicate their lives to the betterment of their chosen breed. You cannot successfully show a dog the judge can't touch or one that is not not sound in structure.

[Paptacular!]

Non refundable deposit before a pup is even born? Errrr I would run a mile!

Search far and wide. I really wouldn't limit yourself to your own state. If I did that, I wouldn't have my papillon bitch. In fact, my litter is the first registered pap litter born in the NT for at least 5 years!

[Dogsfevr]

In WA Cattle dogs are rarely shown so if the OP goes to shows chances are they won't see any .

In our canine journal there are 5 breeders listed

Would also like to point out, I posted in the ACD section of this forum asking any breeders if i may come and meet their dogs...I have had no replies there either.

Are there any WA who post in that section??You can't expect replies if no WA folk are there after all not every breeder is on DOL

I got the breeders from a list online of Perth breeders. Wont say which because Im not sure if Im allowed.

Should be no issues in saying the list unless it has a history

[Gayle.]

There is a really top show breeder of ACD's advertising a couple of pups on DOL at the moment. She is from South Australia and I believe she is very highly regarded in the breed. She certainly has some lovely dogs. It's not that difficult or expensive to fly a pup from another state. I have had a pup flown to me from SA, and also an adult dog from WA, both came to me sight unseen (well, I did see photos) and they were both exactly what I was told they'd be.

[hortfurball]

I do not like the idea that they sell their pups with no papers. That would put me totally off this breeders. Are they even ANKC dogs or are they farm bred dogs? If they are farm bred unregistered dogs they are selling them way way over priced at 700.00. If they are ANKC pups, then they should be registered on Limited and the papers given to the buyer.

Sorry ... but the breeder already sounds like a BYB ... why would a registered breeder be selling pups without papers.

It was late when I posted, I forgot about this bit. I agree with the above posts.

[sandgrubber]

I'll bet fast, short replies . .. it's hard to answer all questions in detail when you're getting 10 emails a day. . . . and that happens to the Lab breeders in Perth . . . sometimes it happens when you have no pups

I have always had good, fast replies from the lab breeders in perth

[Kirty]

Whichever breeder you end up purchasing from, please make sure the breedings dogs are DNA clear for PRA.

[dancinbcs]

Whichever breeder you end up purchasing from, please make sure the breedings dogs are DNA clear for PRA.

Only one parent needs to be DNA clear for the puppies to be unaffected. The other can be a carrier or even affected and the puppies will not be affected.

[Kirty]

True. I should have said, make sure they have been tested.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Kirty

[twodoggies2001]

Asking $100 deposit with no pups on the ground is the height of rudeness IMO, as is selling without papers even though I understand that it's not compulsory over there it's still kind of the point of going through the rigmarole of buying from a registered breeder.

Yes agree, warning bells went off here.

That is silly, it's not like the options are breeder vs pet store/byb.

There are rescues and shelters that you could go to, heeler x's seem to be pretty common.

The reason to go with a registered breeder is because you know what you are getting, and not an unknown quantity (as in a pound dog) which would be especially important in a breed that can have temperament issues.

Good luck perth_girl, I hope you find the right breeder sooner rather than later. It is worth the wait. I have made great new friends not only with my puppy's breeders but also with my puppy's sire's breeders, an unexpected bonus!

It's not just the fact that a $100 deposit is required by the breeder, but the fact that is is an unrefundable deposit, as stated by the OP. What if the breeder can't come up with a suitable pup?

[jakeyjangels]

The amount of 'leg work' that some breeders expect, should go both ways. I understand they want the best homes, but I also want a good dog. Why should I reveal everything about myself when they wont even reveal anything about themselves? I could easily list all my qualities in an email, but I feel as though I should get some kind of level of respect from them, because I would want one of their dogs. The could have dodged that particular question and answered my other ones. To some people, its not just any dog they want. I really liked this breeders dogs and wanted one of theirs, but their reply email came across as 'give me $100 and then we'll talk'. To a buyer, thats not worthy of my time. They cant expect me to hand over $100 without giving me SOME kind of information.

I thought I was doing the right thing by asking about her dogs, asking to be able to come and see them and her, DID NOT mention price at all....these are all things I have learnt on this forum to do when emailing a breeder.

With this kind of a reply its just easier to pick up a newspaper and find a dog that way. Like I said, no wonder people are turning to pet shops and backyard breeders. I have been more than happy to wait and have been looking for a long time. To get this kind of a response just baffled me.

Would also like to point out, I posted in the ACD section of this forum asking any breeders if i may come and meet their dogs...I have had no replies there either.

You seem to have a defensive attitude. Did you want advice on your email or did you just want to complain?

Good breeders already put in the legwork by breeding excellent dogs. Good breeders often have no problems finding homes for their dogs. So there is an imbalance there that puppy buyers just have to put up with.

There are plenty of ways to find out more about breeders than by asking them to give you information about themselves in writing. Replying to questions by email is very time consuming and not something that all breeders can do.

You don't show that you value a really good breeder any more than an average one.

Finding a list of breeders and sending of an email like that could not be described as legwork. If you really like this breeders dogs, why not explain why you do like them instead of sending them the form letter?

Breeders don't usually have to provide long detailed emails about themselves, they usually provide info on websites or you can find out info in other ways. They develop a reputation within their breed. and within the show and breeding world. The dogs they breed are out there being examples of themselves for people to observe. But how will breeders find out about you unless you tell them about you?

Just reading through this thread and got to ask - why do potential puppy purchasers have to 'sell themselves' to breeders?

It just seems you have to submit a resume and you might just get a dog allocated to you - huh but puppy buyers are customers and breeders are suppliers. Sure can see the breeders asking some basic questions such as about fencing, family (ie young kids, old kids, no kids), owned dogs before, etc but really if you have to apply to buy something of course they (buyers) will see an ad in the paper or online or simply buy whta they see at the pet shop. Far easier than going through an inquisition.

If I was looking for a puppy I'd only be putting a basic 'looking for puppy do you have any available in the near future' type email enquiry. Then if they did would be happy to talk to them further but certainly not going to supply an essay to sell myelf.

The demand for quality dogs is high, and people are prepared to wait if they are really committed. If you just see dogs as something that should be produced on demand and sold like any other low value retail household product, you are not really overly attractive as a dog owner. Breeders do not always look at dog breeding as a business, many look at it as a hobby, and not one where they are there to provide a service to the dog buying public.

Pet shops are for people that want to buy a dog without any regard to quality. Quality costs more, and in Australia the cost is in time and effort rather than in cash. Good dogs are worth a lot more than average ones, but the cash price doesn't usually reflect that.

In an email enquiry you don't have to volunteer a lot of detailed information at the start. But requesting a lot of detailed information from somebody that doesn't know you will probably not get far either. Providing a brief outline about your family to the breeder would probably be more helpful in motivating the breeder to deal with you.

I understand why people are complaining, and I agree the situation isn't good, but you will get further if you treat the acquisition of the dog as you would if adopting a child, and less like you are down at Harvey Norman or Retravision trying to compare electrical goods.

People either accept the situation or they don't, whinging here won't be able to alter it.

I agree with those who are a bit wary of the 'no papers' breeder.

[fifi]

Its definately worth thinking about interstate.

My mentor and breeder of my two boys lives in SA, and I'm in NSW.

After a lot of email and phone conversations over a long time, there was finally a pup for me. I flew over and stayed with them for the weekend and left with my boy. It was actually the around the same price for me to go and bring him back on my flight, as to having one sent over. (unsure if that is still the case, but have done it since as well) but it was always the understanding that I would go there to pick up my pup, and spend time with the breeders.

It was a wonderful opportunity to gain valuable knowledge by being there, observing their dog of different ages at home and sitting with the litter & seeing their personalities.

A good breeder will want to build a relationship with you over time, and I can highly recommend phoning too, much is lost with the written word.

Good luck in your search, maybe ask DOL'ers in the Aus Cattle dog thread who they would recommend out of your state if your in state search has been fruitless.

fifi

edited to add stuff

Edited March 19, 2011 by fifi

[ozjen]

I do not like the idea that they sell their pups with no papers. That would put me totally off this breeders. Are they even ANKC dogs or are they farm bred dogs? If they are farm bred unregistered dogs they are selling them way way over priced at 700.00. If they are ANKC pups, then they should be registered on Limited and the papers given to the buyer.

Sorry ... but the breeder already sounds like a BYB ... why would a registered breeder be selling pups without papers.

It was late when I posted, I forgot about this bit. I agree with the above posts.

Perhaps they are withholding papers because they don't want them used to fool people later. I personally am considering with holding papers if I breed again until confirmation that the pup is spayed/neutered ( I give owner 6 months from purchase to do this to allow pup to mature abit).

I would prefer limited papers to be clealy marked in big letters "NOT TO BE BRED FROM" and then I might feel a little more comfortable about giving them out.

I have seen a dog sold on a spay/neuter contract(not one of mine) bred and the pups then sold in a pet shop and the bitches limit papers shown saying "Oh yes mum is a reg ped look here are her papers you can veiw her Champion relies online." All wrong on so many levels but when something goes wrong with that pup all people will remember is "Oh I got a dog from such and such lines and it turned out to be a dud" not "I got a pup from a bitch sold on a spay/neuter contract for a reason and it was bred indiscrimnaitly to possiably another breed, no health testing etc and the breeder (of the petshop pups) didn't care where the pups went as long as they got their money".

While everyone might say then that the reg. breeder wasn't careful enough in picking their new owners, none of us can say with 100% sureity that we can see through all other peoples lies and deception and we don't all feel comfortable about spaying/neutering very young pups although I can understand why breeders resort to this. I also know how upset this breeder was about this happening, I know how upset by it I was too on having to advise her on what had happened.

There is a fine line between breeders going overboard with their terms and conditions for potential new owners and those just trying to protect their breed it is not always easy to find the happy medium or for potential puppy owners to understand.

ETA: Breeders are not necessarily businesspeople so may not always be efficient in responding to emails or getting back to possiable prospective buyers, given the amount of time wasters they may also get enquiries from. If they were bussiness peope then they would want a more profitable bussiness, dog breeding rarely if ever is. While they do sell pups to the general public it is more about rehoming those pups that don't meet their own needs not about filling a niche in the market.

Edited March 19, 2011 by ozjen

[jr_inoz]

The best advice I can give you Perth Girl is not to limit yourself to WA breeders.

Even on the East Coast many of us buy from out of state. Don't let distance stop you from finding the right dog from the right breeder. It's not something you're going to have to do often.

There are a couple of very very good ACD breeders in SA, that I don't think you would have the same issues from.

PM me if you want the names

[mita]

The amount of 'leg work' that some breeders expect, should go both ways. I understand they want the best homes, but I also want a good dog. Why should I reveal everything about myself when they wont even reveal anything about themselves?

Sounds like a Mexican stand-off!

I've posted before how I approached registered breeders. Email with some basic information about me & why I'm making contact. Then, because I'm from another age & like some voice to voice contact, I ask if they'd be prepared to speak with me on the phone, to discuss things further. And tell them, I'd have no problem if they're not taking enquiries at this time & say 'No'. If 'Yes', we talk. If 'No', I move on.

And, if I don't for some reason, like what I hear. I move on. There are more registered breeders in heaven & earth than this world dreams of, Horatio.

My reasons for preferring buying from a registered breeder remain even if, by chance, I meet one whose 'ways' I don't relate to. I don't have an emotional meltdown & head for a petshop or BYB. Anyone who does, just lacks a very useful trait of being able to postpone rewards.

So, in your position, after not liking what I heard, I would move on until I found something I did like. As others have said, you can look nationwide.

Best wishes finding the ACD that you feel is right for you. My sister-in-law in Victoria owns 2 p/b ACDs (from registered breeders in that state). They have a great life on acreage.

Edited March 19, 2011 by mita

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The response from one breeder who has two red flags in the response (deposit and offering no papers), I would not use to slam all breeders or give up trying.

It's like a job interview or trying to get a book published... you could reasonably expect one response from 100 applications, and then you won't get so upset when you get one dodgy response from 5 applications. Also the best jobs (and dogs) come from word of mouth referral not internet ads or "breeder" websites.

I got my ACDx as a 10 week old puppy from AWL. Several farmers I have met say she's pure ACD anyway. But they're farmers not dog show competitors. And her temperment as far as being a friendly dog goes, is brilliant. It did take some work in my part to train out her inclination to heel joggers, cars, bikes and tractor mowers but it's all good now.

If you really want local (and I think that's a good thing), maybe ask the SA breeders to recommend someone in WA you could go meet. Or find out when the local agricultural shows are on in WA - every country town has one... and go meet some people and ask. ACD have not been a "show dog" for very long. I imagine most of the breeders would be cattle farmers, breeding for their own and friends' need for a good herding dog. And various cattle farmers would know who has the best dogs.

If you do want an ACD for a city pet, you're going to need to put in some work training, and it would definitely help if the breeder knew that your dog was not going to be a mere backyard ornament which is what some people mean by "family pet".

[nightgrace6]

I purchased my dog from interstate after researching and *emailing* about 6 perspective breeders..the pup I chose to buy came from a lady that was very blunt over email but asked for my phone number and after giving it to her she proceeded to call me and and ask me questions and fill me in over the phone, she was professional, sweet, helpful, informative and she sprung me questions that I had no choice but to answer honestly (completely different from email).. I suppose some breeders (and I would be like this) would like to hear your voice... if they are busy they will not reply, if you are serious, you will call..(some will state whether they wish to be contacted by email or phone, anytime they had a "puppy form" on their websites that I filled in they would call me).

I had breeders that sent me huge 2 page detailed emails that I was very keen on but then when I went to phone them they were hard to reach.. Some may be out of the Country or on holiday, their internet may be down, they could be at dog shows, they could work nights, they could be sick etc.. please call before you write them off because they do not reply to emails.. and whilst your email was lovely, it seems like a few back and forth emails will have to flow.. when I sent mine I would tell them my name, age, dog experience, why I had chosen the breed and in particular them as a breeder.. when I wanted the dog, what I wanted the dog for and what I could offer the dog, if I had owned the breed before.. I also asked extra things that were important to me like if they would take the dog back if for some reason I could not keep it anymore and what breeder support they will give, what guarantees they offered etc... and hey, some replied about two weeks after explaining that they were away etc. If they accept enquires about puppies I do not see why they would not reply to an email unless they prefer to be phoned or they think that you had not offered enough information..

Good luck, breeders (good ones) do have a strict screening process and like I said before I probably would because even the best puppy purchasers on paper can be horrible owners.. don't give up, may I suggest not writing (I have not received a reply) maybe just ask if they received your first email, or call them and in the event of no answer email them saying tried to call today would be appreciative if you could call me on xxxx in the interim I will keep trying you..

[Gayle.]

This is harping back to an old problem.

If a breeder has an email address as a contact, they should answer their emails. No excuses, it's just plain rude not to at least acknowledge an enquiry. If they don't want to answer emails, they should not have an email address as a means of contact.

[Mystiqview]

Ozjen,

Sorry. In Queensland at least it is a requirement from Dogs Qld, that papers are supplied with the puppy. If you don't want run the risk of that pup later bred from, desex prior to selling the puppy.

It is not up to us as breeders to thumb our noses at SOME of the rules we agree to abide by. But choose to abide by others.

It is our rule to supply papers, so therefore we must.