No Wonder Ppl Go To Bybs

[*Lolapalooza*]

The best advice I can give you Perth Girl is not to limit yourself to WA breeders.

Even on the East Coast many of us buy from out of state. Don't let distance stop you from finding the right dog from the right breeder. It's not something you're going to have to do often.

Ditto, and I wouldnt go near a breeder that offered a pup without papers, it costs $20 for limited reg papers and in many states isagainst rules not to register the whole litter

[Tilly]

I have been looking for a blue heeler puppy for at least 8 months now. I have emailed Perth breeders and tried calling. I got back ONE email. This is what i sent...

I am very interested in buying a gorgeous Blue Heeler puppy, purely for pet purposes. I have emailed before and didnt receive a reply, so I thought I

would try again. Would you please be able to tell me a little bit about your pups and what the criteria is, to be considered by you to give one of these pups a

forever home. I would also love to be able to come and visit your dogs if possible.

Thank you

This is the reply I got...

We do not have any puppies at the moment, but we do run a puppy waitlist where a $100 deposit (non refundable) is paid and people wait until we have

puppies available. Do you wish to go on the waitlist? Puppies sell for $700 without papers. If you wish other information, please phone *name and number here*

WTF! That wasnt helpful at all! Its no wonder people go to backyard breeders when real breeders either wont return calls or emails, or dont offer the information that was originally asked! Also, that email was sent at the start of Feb and i have just checked their website and they had 2 litters a week later and the pups arent sold or on hold apparently

Sorry ... but the breeder already sounds like a BYB ... why would a registered breeder be selling pups without papers.

[Greytmate]

The amount of 'leg work' that some breeders expect, should go both ways. I understand they want the best homes, but I also want a good dog. Why should I reveal everything about myself when they wont even reveal anything about themselves? I could easily list all my qualities in an email, but I feel as though I should get some kind of level of respect from them, because I would want one of their dogs. The could have dodged that particular question and answered my other ones. To some people, its not just any dog they want. I really liked this breeders dogs and wanted one of theirs, but their reply email came across as 'give me $100 and then we'll talk'. To a buyer, thats not worthy of my time. They cant expect me to hand over $100 without giving me SOME kind of information.

I thought I was doing the right thing by asking about her dogs, asking to be able to come and see them and her, DID NOT mention price at all....these are all things I have learnt on this forum to do when emailing a breeder.

With this kind of a reply its just easier to pick up a newspaper and find a dog that way. Like I said, no wonder people are turning to pet shops and backyard breeders. I have been more than happy to wait and have been looking for a long time. To get this kind of a response just baffled me.

Would also like to point out, I posted in the ACD section of this forum asking any breeders if i may come and meet their dogs...I have had no replies there either.

You seem to have a defensive attitude. Did you want advice on your email or did you just want to complain?

Good breeders already put in the legwork by breeding excellent dogs. Good breeders often have no problems finding homes for their dogs. So there is an imbalance there that puppy buyers just have to put up with.

There are plenty of ways to find out more about breeders than by asking them to give you information about themselves in writing. Replying to questions by email is very time consuming and not something that all breeders can do.

You don't show that you value a really good breeder any more than an average one.

Finding a list of breeders and sending of an email like that could not be described as legwork. If you really like this breeders dogs, why not explain why you do like them instead of sending them the form letter?

Breeders don't usually have to provide long detailed emails about themselves, they usually provide info on websites or you can find out info in other ways. They develop a reputation within their breed. and within the show and breeding world. The dogs they breed are out there being examples of themselves for people to observe. But how will breeders find out about you unless you tell them about you?

Just reading through this thread and got to ask - why do potential puppy purchasers have to 'sell themselves' to breeders?

It just seems you have to submit a resume and you might just get a dog allocated to you - huh but puppy buyers are customers and breeders are suppliers. Sure can see the breeders asking some basic questions such as about fencing, family (ie young kids, old kids, no kids), owned dogs before, etc but really if you have to apply to buy something of course they (buyers) will see an ad in the paper or online or simply buy whta they see at the pet shop. Far easier than going through an inquisition.

If I was looking for a puppy I'd only be putting a basic 'looking for puppy do you have any available in the near future' type email enquiry. Then if they did would be happy to talk to them further but certainly not going to supply an essay to sell myelf.

The demand for quality dogs is high, and people are prepared to wait if they are really committed. If you just see dogs as something that should be produced on demand and sold like any other low value retail household product, you are not really overly attractive as a dog owner. Breeders do not always look at dog breeding as a business, many look at it as a hobby, and not one where they are there to provide a service to the dog buying public.

Pet shops are for people that want to buy a dog without any regard to quality. Quality costs more, and in Australia the cost is in time and effort rather than in cash. Good dogs are worth a lot more than average ones, but the cash price doesn't usually reflect that.

In an email enquiry you don't have to volunteer a lot of detailed information at the start. But requesting a lot of detailed information from somebody that doesn't know you will probably not get far either. Providing a brief outline about your family to the breeder would probably be more helpful in motivating the breeder to deal with you.

I understand why people are complaining, and I agree the situation isn't good, but you will get further if you treat the acquisition of the dog as you would if adopting a child, and less like you are down at Harvey Norman or Retravision trying to compare electrical goods.

People either accept the situation or they don't, whinging here won't be able to alter it.

I agree with those who are a bit wary of the 'no papers' breeder.

[shortstep]

Just reading through this thread and got to ask - why do potential puppy purchasers have to 'sell themselves' to breeders?

It just seems you have to submit a resume and you might just get a dog allocated to you - huh but puppy buyers are customers and breeders are suppliers. Sure can see the breeders asking some basic questions such as about fencing, family (ie young kids, old kids, no kids), owned dogs before, etc but really if you have to apply to buy something of course they (buyers) will see an ad in the paper or online or simply buy whta they see at the pet shop. Far easier than going through an inquisition.

If I was looking for a puppy I'd only be putting a basic 'looking for puppy do you have any available in the near future' type email enquiry. Then if they did would be happy to talk to them further but certainly not going to supply an essay to sell myelf.

Because they are very special little dogs to me and they deserve the very best I can do for them. A big part of that is finding the right home for them. I work for my pups first, then the owner for the rest of the pups life.

[The Spotted Devil]

Greyt post

[Sayreovi]

Just reading through this thread and got to ask - why do potential puppy purchasers have to 'sell themselves' to breeders?

Not sure about other breeds, but in Tollers there is definately a shortage of puppies vs puppy buyers. So if you want a puppy you have to show why you are better than the other 20 people waiting as well.

Plus if I am spending all this money raising and putting my heart and soul into a litter there is no way they are going to people who just expect to get a puppy because they enquired and not put in any effort as to why I should sell them one of my precious puppies.

It goes both ways, I will be doing everything that is required of me as an ethical reptuable breeder and am happy to show anyone that but I want buyers to prove why I should consider them. JMO of course

ETA: Soul not sole

Edited March 19, 2011 by tollersowned

[Sayreovi]

The demand for quality dogs is high, and people are prepared to wait if they are really committed. If you just see dogs as something that should be produced on demand and sold like any other low value retail household product, you are not really overly attractive as a dog owner. Breeders do not always look at dog breeding as a business, many look at it as a hobby, and not one where they are there to provide a service to the dog buying public.

Pet shops are for people that want to buy a dog without any regard to quality. Quality costs more, and in Australia the cost is in time and effort rather than in cash. Good dogs are worth a lot more than average ones, but the cash price doesn't usually reflect that.

In an email enquiry you don't have to volunteer a lot of detailed information at the start. But requesting a lot of detailed information from somebody that doesn't know you will probably not get far either. Providing a brief outline about your family to the breeder would probably be more helpful in motivating the breeder to deal with you.

I understand why people are complaining, and I agree the situation isn't good, but you will get further if you treat the acquisition of the dog as you would if adopting a child, and less like you are down at Harvey Norman or Retravision trying to compare electrical goods.

People either accept the situation or they don't, whinging here won't be able to alter it.

I agree with those who are a bit wary of the 'no papers' breeder.

[Crisovar]

Just reading through this thread and got to ask - why do potential puppy purchasers have to 'sell themselves' to breeders?

It just seems you have to submit a resume and you might just get a dog allocated to you - huh but puppy buyers are customers and breeders are suppliers. Sure can see the breeders asking some basic questions such as about fencing, family (ie young kids, old kids, no kids), owned dogs before, etc but really if you have to apply to buy something of course they (buyers) will see an ad in the paper or online or simply buy whta they see at the pet shop. Far easier than going through an inquisition.

If I was looking for a puppy I'd only be putting a basic 'looking for puppy do you have any available in the near future' type email enquiry. Then if they did would be happy to talk to them further but certainly not going to supply an essay to sell myelf.

Pups are not a product you can just buy off the shelf, or they shouldn't be.

Good Breeders are not Big W or Kmart, they wont sell to just anyone, because the dogs deserve better than that.

[WoofnHoof]

You are preaching to the converted here though, the average puppy buyer has no real idea why breeders are so hard to communicate with, they are used to walking into a shop and buying a pup. Breeders are ambassadors for purebred dogs, it's great to screen buyers and only select the best homes but they need to say that in their emails, this email doesn't give me any impression that the breeder is screening it just says they want a deposit and you'll have to wait till a pup becomes available. If you are going to have a generic email response at least outline what information you need from the buyer, why you want it and what information you have to give them to help them make an informed choice. If you want them to ring tell them you'd like to speak to them over the phone. Yes registered pups are in demand but the purebred dog is in decline and that also needs to be addressed.

[Bluefairy]

OP I too had to go interstate to get my pups in the breeds I wanted. I chose a short list of names I found on the Breed Clubs from several states. I am in SA, but I have had pups sent to me from QLD and NSW. I was lucky enough the last time to get one from this state, but it involved a lot of traveling. So don't limit yourself to your state only.

When I contacted breeders, I told them about where the puppy would live, about my family and childrens ages, and about what I knew about the breed. I knew breeders (those that cared anyway) would want to know where their puppy, they put so much time and effort into, is going. I thought my chances of getting a puppy was better if I knew what I was getting myself into with the breed, and how I was going to raise her. Those that are in it for the money are the ones that don't give a toss about who you are or about the pup after it leaves them....they just want to get the money and get rid of the pup.

I would never buy a pedigree dog without papers. I would never put a deposit on a pup either, unless the pup is on the ground and its mine. This really screams BYB to me. I would walk away from this breeder and look elsewhere.

I hope you have more luck soon, and you get to have the puppy that is waiting for you.

BF

[perth_girl]

Here is where Im at....

I want an ACD puppy. A purebred ACD puppy.Have been looking for the right one for months. Thought I would do the right thing and go through a breeder. I would prefer to get one from WA because at least then I can go and look at the pups for myself and meet the breeder. I dont want a pup with a thousand bells and whistles. I want an ACD that is healthy and happy. Thats it.

Can a breeder please tell me what is wrong with that?

I recently had to put down my best friend of 8 years. A 12yr old boxer that I rescued from the pound. I have plenty of room in my house, a child, everything a dog needs, and all the love to give it. Why the hell would I be not worthy?

In answer to a PP, I didnt write this thread just to complain. I wrote it so that breeders could see what it looks like from the outside and understand why some people throw their hands up and look elsewhere for a companion. I believe that sometimes the breeders cant see the forest through the trees. I get it...you, as a breeder, dont have to. Your doing just fine. You have wait lists for your puppies and dont need my 'business'.....doesnt mean that I would be an unfit home for one of your dogs.

[Tilly]

perth_girl - I hear what you are saying and completely agree.

I had the same dramas looking for my last 2 dogs and can completely understand why people go to pet shops or through the paper to get their pups.

I had called breeders and the biggest majority never answered their phones or returned calls ... so I tried emailing breeders and again most never responded - and the ones who did respond were extremely un-helpful and some were down right rude.

I was upfront about what qualities I wanted in my pup and about the life the pup would have (I wanted a working dog) but it seems because I asked the price that was a bad thing. I had a budget of $1,500 for my pup and didn't want to waste someones time if their pups price range stated at $2,000. But because I couldn't find any mention either through a breeders website or advertisement about price - of course I had to ask.

I can see both sides of the issue ...

[gidg]

Just reading through this thread and got to ask - why do potential puppy purchasers have to 'sell themselves' to breeders?

Plus if I am spending all this money raising and putting my heart and soul into a litter there is no way they are going to people who just expect to get a puppy because they enquired and not put in any effort as to why I should sell them one of my precious puppies.

Absolutely.

The puppies are precious, we're talking about responsible breeders here, not puppy farmers who do operate on a supply and demand basis.

A good breeder is not breeding to "satisfy" any public demand!

Yes, I expect (and would be pleased) to open myself up to the scrutiny of the breeder if I want to buy a puppy from them, this shows they care, and I want my puppy to come from a caring environment.

So it reflects back on the breeder and in itself tells you the puppy buyer some important information about the breeder, the parent dogs, and their environment.

Edited March 19, 2011 by gidg

[gidg]

Here is where Im at....

I want an ACD puppy. A purebred ACD puppy.Have been looking for the right one for months. Thought I would do the right thing and go through a breeder. I would prefer to get one from WA because at least then I can go and look at the pups for myself and meet the breeder. I dont want a pup with a thousand bells and whistles. I want an ACD that is healthy and happy. Thats it.

Can a breeder please tell me what is wrong with that?

I recently had to put down my best friend of 8 years. A 12yr old boxer that I rescued from the pound. I have plenty of room in my house, a child, everything a dog needs, and all the love to give it. Why the hell would I be not worthy?

In answer to a PP, I didnt write this thread just to complain. I wrote it so that breeders could see what it looks like from the outside and understand why some people throw their hands up and look elsewhere for a companion. I believe that sometimes the breeders cant see the forest through the trees. I get it...you, as a breeder, dont have to. Your doing just fine. You have wait lists for your puppies and dont need my 'business'.....doesnt mean that I would be an unfit home for one of your dogs.

I don't think you'd be unworthy at all, and I don't think that's the issue.

I reckon its great that you'd like to buy from a good breeder.

Why don't you just give them a call and have a chat. Sometimes that's all it takes to work these things out.

Having said that, I think putting a $100.00 deposit on a puppy before it is born it alot to ask...but then maybe this is flexible or they have good reason...just ask.

[luvsdogs]

From what I've heard breeders say about the nuisance calls they get from the public wanting puppies NOW I can see this breeders point. Also maybe she said no papers because you said in your email that you wanted a 'pet only'. On the other hand if I was getting a pup from a breeder I'd want the Limited register pedigree papers. From websites I've looked at searching for a pup & dol ads, most have waiting lists, some have pups that they can't find homes for straight away. If they have pups needing new homes & you want to secure a pup, they require a deposit.

I think it would have been helpful if you had at least told the breeder what you wanted to do with the pup. Being a working breed it needs to be more than just a pet. Do you want to do obedience, agility, herding with the dog?

[Greytmate]

I'm not a breeder.

Nobody is saying you will not provide a good home for a dog, the things you mentioned there about your dog owning history are exactly the sort of thing you could include in an enquiry email. A few short details, without saying anything too personal, can give breeders a much better idea of where you are coming from. Your first email could have come from an international dog broker looking for litters to send to Singapore for all they know.

Be friendly and open and tell a particular breeder why you have chosen them as the breeder to breed your next dog.

[Mystiqview]

I got the breeders from a list online of Perth breeders. Wont say which because Im not sure if Im allowed.

I used 'Blue Heelers' because their website used it many many times instead of ACD, so I assumed I wouldnt be frowned upon by using it myself.

I assume the dogs arent on hold because in the past when they have had litters available, the pics they put up instantly have 'Sold' or 'on hold' writting beside each corresponding puppy, and these newer litters have 'available'.

I most definitely didnt reply to that email because, from what I received, I do not wish to purchase one of their pups. I honestly did not expect doing the right thing and going through a breeder would be this upsetting and difficult. I assumed breeders would be welcoming and friendly, happy to talk about their dogs. I understand them being protective, but it came across very money-hungry. If I walked into a shop and said "I'd like to by a stereo" and they said "sure give me $100 and then I'll think about showing you some", id walk out the door. (And yes, I know a pup is nothing like a stereo....just using it as an analogy)

Unfortunately there are a few breeders who think they are a little bit precious and are the best thing since sliced bread. Some even here on the forums come across the same way.

Please persevere. You will find a good breeder, one where you will be happy to deal with and be comfortable with.

We are often contacted by people who get the breed name, colour or anything else wrong. The good breeders will look past some of those as the person is just starting their research and will give some basic information about their animals when asked. Not "give me a deposit" then talk attitude.

I can see what they are saying in one hand in their response to you. They are wanting to see if you are serious. I know myself I have spent hours on potential puppy buyers only to find out I am wasting my time on them. That happens. If you don't want to go through that.. don't breed.

Quite frankly, if someone doesn't want to take the time - let them waste someone else's. To me that goes both ways.

[Greytmate]

Here is where Im at....

I dont want a pup with a thousand bells and whistles. I want an ACD that is healthy and happy. Thats it.

Pups don't come with bells and whistles at all. But with ACD breeders you get either a well bred litter of pups, some of which are likely to have outstanding conformation and temperament, or you get pups where the breeding hasn't been as well considered and you are more likely to have individuals with temperament or other problems.

As a pet owner you need to be clear. Do you want the best possible pet dog? There is such a fine line between good pets and show dogs, not a thousand bells and whistles.

[Golden Rules]

Asking $100 deposit with no pups on the ground is the height of rudeness IMO, as is selling without papers even though I understand that it's not compulsory over there it's still kind of the point of going through the rigmarole of buying from a registered breeder.

Yes agree, warning bells went off here.

That is silly, it's not like the options are breeder vs pet store/byb.

There are rescues and shelters that you could go to, heeler x's seem to be pretty common.

The reason to go with a registered breeder is because you know what you are getting, and not an unknown quantity (as in a pound dog) which would be especially important in a breed that can have temperament issues.

Good luck perth_girl, I hope you find the right breeder sooner rather than later. It is worth the wait. I have made great new friends not only with my puppy's breeders but also with my puppy's sire's breeders, an unexpected bonus!

[Mystiqview]

I personally would not be paying a deposit on a puppy that is not yet born.

Perhaps if you are really keen on this particular breeder's pups and like the look of their dogs, then ring them and talk to them. Who knows after five minutes of talking to them you and the breeder may decide their dogs while looking nice may not be what you are after??

You may like the look of their dogs... but temperament maybe something else entirely and the temperament of that particular breeders dogs may not be to your liking EG: to work driven as they breed for performance, too soft, too hard, too hyper to name a few.

You may like a particular dog/bitch, and if their next litter is by another dog/bitch, do you have to take a puppy from THAT litter or do you wait until they breed from the dog/bitch you like??

Correct me if I am wrong, but I was of the understanding that even now in WA pups have to be registered and come with papers - even if they are "limit registered papers". (Not for show/breed).

I know what it USED to be like with some puppies not being registered and coming with papers. But times have changed. If I am going to buy a pedigree dog, I want my papers. For me being in Qld, even competing in sports, at least I can compete as a pedigree dog, not just a dog on the associate register (for non pedigree).

As a breeder, I do not ask for a holding deposit until my pups are at least two weeks old. I want to make sure in the first instance I have the eyes/ears open before asking for a deposit and the pups are all putting on weight and are healthy as sometimes pups do fade and die.

I also try to match temperament of puppy to owner, not go "this pup is yours - take it or leave it". Of course if there are show pups wanted from the litter, I cannot guarantee sex or individual pups. But I will say this pup is suited to you because........ I do this based on temperament and lifestyle of where that pup is going to be. Not on buyer preference to markings.

If I don't have a puppy suitable, then I don't have a puppy suitable.