"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[Merrirose]

Canines are the masters of subtlety, we're the clumbsy lumbering creatures comparably. Just because some people dont carry a belt full of varoius paraphenalia doesnt mean they are not applying some reinforcement.

Agreed.

I see CM use positive reinforcement all the time and he gets the owners to practice it too. Positive reinforcement is a very large range of things, it does not have to be food, verbal praise or a pat.

He uses touch to re-direct the mind in certain cases and will try to match the intensity that the dog has at that point in time.

CM uses many different methods depending on the individual situation & states he is continually learning & evolving which I think is awesome instead of thinking he knows everything & that his way is the only way.

Regardless of if you like CM's methods or not he has done so much good in this world. The foundation he has set up and the other things he is involved in makes a huge positive difference to that many dogs & people.

[Monah]

I have not seen many of his programs as I've never had pay TV but have seen a few on HD recently.

I am not knowledgeable re training, but have had many many dogs for many years.

I don't like him at all. HIs programs should come with a 'dont try this at home' warning. Much of it is downright dangerous if used by people who do not have understanding. The program I saw on the weekend showed him alpha rolling a DA pitbull, walking it with another dog (on the show it appeared to happen within minutes... ) and then walking into his 'pack' with this dog and letting it run with the pack.

Anyone watching with a DA dog may think they can do this and it's a fix all..

To me the dog also looked very nervous all of the time, very unhappy.

So, it appeared she was now OK with other dogs and he said when the owners came that the dog may attack now as they are there, and of course it did attack a dog. It also played up as usual when back home...but there were (apparently) many 'reasons' for this too. I'm not sure what was gained , but I'm not educated in training.

I saw him eyeballing and trying to take a bone from a resource guarding vizsla once too, this family had kids, and the dog was really nasty. I felt sick from what could be the consequences of him showing the viz that he was boss. What if his veiwers tried it at home? Or kids tried it?

[Anissa Goemann]

The worst dog I ever had foamed at the mouth when a plastic bag blew across the other end of a football field sized area. Her owner had lived in a few states and the dog was seven years old, so they'd been to a few trainers. His dog couldn't be walked anywhere where another dog was likely to be seen. Medication hadn't helped, and the dog was born that way.

We had this dog taking food around other dogs within a couple of weeks, the owner was astounded. Then we very quickly got her down to sits, drops, looking at other dogs, and walking on a loose leash within 5m of another dog within another couple of weeks. She was never brilliant, but at least she could be walked without having a fit and taking days to come down.

I can't believe how much we have progessed with Manu over the past 4 years, Aidan. Starting out with him going mental seeing another dog at the other end of the cricket field to now being able to play with other dogs (after careful intorduction & reinforcing every little step he takes) and walking him past nearly every other dog on a loose leash as close as 2m. With your help we went much farther I ever hoped to get with him!

[mita]

I believe if you have a variety of humane methods in your kit, you are more likely to have just the right one that works like a charm on that particular dog.

Very well said. There's a sound theoretical base, too, for having a position like that. As I posted before, dog behaviour (& human behaviour, too) is complex. So one methodology, based on one theory, is not going to apply, alone, in every situation. Having a range of methods to draw on, makes sense. The critical thing is that the practitioner must be able to make a good case (rationale) for what method or combination of methods, are selected. And also for the rejection of specified methods.

Edited March 20, 2011 by mita

[Aidan3]

What training did you do with this dog to get these great results and have you seen CM do something similar?

I've never seen CM do anything similar, although he is very good at getting people to remain calm and demonstrate that they are calm, almost certainly better at that than me. I like my clients to laugh, so we need them to feel safe otherwise it's just nervous laughter

As for what I do, it's the absolute basics of learning theory but the problem here is that interpretations vary somewhat. First I establish operations, then I break the behaviour down into tiny little pieces and start with the first piece. When that is reliable, I move to the second piece. The rate of reinforcement is very high because we're talking about tiny durations of behaviour at first, but this is OK because it builds two things - a giant reinforcement history, and associations through classical conditioning.

A good analogy is lifting weights. I don't know if it's something you've ever been involved with, but when most of us start we're usually pretty weak. So we have to start with a light bar, otherwise we can't do it. We lift that light bar over and over, then we get a little bit stronger. Then we can lift a little bit more, so that's what we do. Over and over.

If we want to get anywhere with it, we don't say "OK, I think this weight x reps will keep making me stronger, I'll just stick with this" (actually, most people DO do that... ) nor do we say "OK, I'm going to put 4 more plates on the bar and just lift it" when we know we can't (actually a lot of people do this too, then they "cheat" by limiting range of movement, or enlisting a spotter to lift half of it for them while yelling "it's all you bro!"...)

Granted, the only trainer I've seen successfully handle red zone dogs is CM

I would challenge that idea. How do we define what a "red zone" dog is? Think about that seriously. Cesar tells us the dog is "red zone", so do we just believe that because he is the expert? That is circular reasoning and does not include substantiated evidence. Also, do you think that the dogs Cesar works with are any different to the dog any of the rest of us work with? Why would that be? Is he breeding them specifically for his show?

Realise that we can make almost any reactive dog look like a "red zone" dog if we put them into situations that they cannot handle.

[pixie_meg]

don't like him at all. HIs programs should come with a 'dont try this at home' warning. Much of it is downright dangerous if used by people who do not have understanding. The program I saw on the weekend showed him alpha rolling a DA pitbull, walking it with another dog (on the show it appeared to happen within minutes... ) and then walking into his 'pack' with this dog and letting it run with the pack.

Anyone watching with a DA dog may think they can do this and it's a fix all..

his show does come with a warning that states don't try it at home and consult a dog behaviourist if you have issues with your dog.

[Melbomb]

Have a read of the book 'The Lost Dogs' by Jim Gorant. It is the story of the Vick PitBulls. I don't recall DogTown as one of the organizations involved with these dogs, though is that the name of the TV program? The organizations (BAD RAP, Best Friends, Georgia SPCA and All or Nothing Rescue, Richmond Animal League, Recycled Love to name a few) did amazing work with these dogs.

The female initially PTS was indeed aggressive due to forced over breeding, but it was the female originally named Jane who lost her teeth due to infection ect... Jane made it through and was renamed. All in all, I think 48 were rehabilitated to some degree or another. A high percentage achieved Canine Good Citizen certification, quite a few became certified Therapy dogs. Many now live in foster and permanent forever homes. Dome remain in sanctuary. A couple died, and I believe 42 was the final number when the book was completed in 2010

It was widely acknowledged that the Vick dogs (with only 2-3 exceptions) either had not fought, were unwilling to fight, or

were bait dogs.

I don't dispute the power of positive training methods. Nor do I dispute the need for unique, individualized treatment programs for red zone dogs. I'm simply pointing out the the Vick PitBulls (and I'm not talking about all fighting dogs, just the Vick dogs) were not reported as highly aggressive, sh*t scared, yes, highly aggressive, red zone, no, not to my understanding.

I am pretty sure that the shelter featured on DogTown is Best Friends.

[Dogsrawesome]

Have a read of the book 'The Lost Dogs' by Jim Gorant. It is the story of the Vick PitBulls. I don't recall DogTown as one of the organizations involved with these dogs, though is that the name of the TV program? The organizations (BAD RAP, Best Friends, Georgia SPCA and All or Nothing Rescue, Richmond Animal League, Recycled Love to name a few) did amazing work with these dogs.

The female initially PTS was indeed aggressive due to forced over breeding, but it was the female originally named Jane who lost her teeth due to infection ect... Jane made it through and was renamed. All in all, I think 48 were rehabilitated to some degree or another. A high percentage achieved Canine Good Citizen certification, quite a few became certified Therapy dogs. Many now live in foster and permanent forever homes. Dome remain in sanctuary. A couple died, and I believe 42 was the final number when the book was completed in 2010

It was widely acknowledged that the Vick dogs (with only 2-3 exceptions) either had not fought, were unwilling to fight, or

were bait dogs.

I don't dispute the power of positive training methods. Nor do I dispute the need for unique, individualized treatment programs for red zone dogs. I'm simply pointing out the the Vick PitBulls (and I'm not talking about all fighting dogs, just the Vick dogs) were not reported as highly aggressive, sh*t scared, yes, highly aggressive, red zone, no, not to my understanding.

I am pretty sure that the shelter featured on DogTown is Best Friends.

Yeah its best friends

[Aidan3]

Yes, Best Friends. I was referring to the television show because that is what most people would be familiar with.

[LuvsDobes]

Yes, Best Friends. I was referring to the television show because that is what most people would be familiar with.

Thanks :-) I wasn't sure (being one of those people who rarely turns the telly on!)

[Keira&Phoenix]

I can see both side of this.

Personally I like watching the show and seeing the dogs transform and I think he communicates well with them and also has the right state of mind, he is calm all the time etc. I think dogs live in packs and work in a heirachy. I find some of his episodes very heartwarming.

In saying that I think his methods can be extreme sometimes, that video although biased did open my eyes up to how much he really does kick the dog. And there are literally times in that video where he is "kicking" not tapping, full blown kicking. He floods the dogs with his methods, so instead of slowing working through the issues he will check the dog into a situation that causes it stress and then poke it, "tap" it and alpha roll it until it submits to him and the situation, hence why the dogs are still not 100% when they speak to the owners at the end of the episode. He has also been subjected to law suits due to the way he deals with dogs (http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm this is just one example), this is part of the reason in the newer seasons you see him using more positive reinforcement then previous seasons.

I also see wayyyy to many amateurs at the dog park alpha rolling their dog (incorrectly) and so on and so forth.

As I said I do not hate CM and like to watch his show and think he is good at the communicating with the dogs but maybe not so much with other parts.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Keira&Phoenix

[BMAK]

but take one of CM cases i couldn't see food working for a pitbull sorry.

You should watch the Dogtown special on the Vick dogs then, I think you'll get a surprise.

The worst dog I ever had foamed at the mouth when a plastic bag blew across the other end of a football field sized area. Her owner had lived in a few states and the dog was seven years old, so they'd been to a few trainers. His dog couldn't be walked anywhere where another dog was likely to be seen. Medication hadn't helped, and the dog was born that way.

We had this dog taking food around other dogs within a couple of weeks, the owner was astounded. Then we very quickly got her down to sits, drops, looking at other dogs, and walking on a loose leash within 5m of another dog within another couple of weeks. She was never brilliant, but at least she could be walked without having a fit and taking days to come down.

saw it a while back, my eyes were glued! i use both the click to calm methods, and also instead of touching, i make a noise in which only one of my dogs(my dog with personal space aggression) imediately snaps out of what ever he may be doing (like a farting noise sorry) metaphorically speaking which i find works for me alot better then if i were to touch. i am going to a behaviourist soon so i can't wait to see what techniques are used :DI see what works better for my dog to his type of aggression.

[jackie_a1]

Ok my two cents.

Firstly Caeser Milan follower he is one of my idols. Taint him all you like you cannot mess with results. NOW in saying this. Do I think all dogs should be trained with CM's method? No. As an aspiring dog trainer myself I think depending on the dog depends on the method used. A whimpering eight hundred gram chi pup would not benefit from a Ceaser tap merely based on size. However having owner a highly dog aggressive dog prior, I will tell you a piece of chicken or ANY positive enforcement would not be beneficial.

The problem is we need to assess a dog as an individual not as a whole species or genome. I think the assumption is CM'S method worked for a pitbull it must be a vast method that can be applied to all dogs. WRONG. What worked for one pitbull may vary from another. As a trainer, owner, animal lover what ever you classify yourself as you should assess the dog individually and not just assume because of it's breed or what you have seen on t.v etc, it can or should be applied to your dog. If C.Ms method worked for your dog (has wonderfully for mine) it doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be applied on your neighbours pit or chi or what ever the breed be. It just means that particular method of training worked for THAT PARTICULAR DOG. I use both C.M's training method and have started to familiarize myself with clicker training. I have trained Boss to die on cue with clicking, bridging etc. But I prefer to use click training as a secondary method to train party tricks etc but I also use C.M's method with Raze and Boss to enforce rules and discipline and stability.

For MY own dogs its worked wonders but for your dog it might vary and all that means is it's your responsibility as a trainer, owner etc to find the training method that best suits YOUR dog (or which ever dog it is your training). I am a huge advocate for a variety of training methods. No one says you only have to use C.ms methods and that his is the only and right way. If a dog is thriving with positive then by all means treat it. But if you know your dog (like mine) will not respond to that method then by all means give him a love tap.

I think C.M is a genius and I can only strive to have one eighth of his potential.

[stormie]

I like him. I can see how some people would not like his methods and that's fine, each to their own. For me, I see the dogs that he deals with as being in a constant state of stress and frustration, either from lack of exercise, being put in a position of pack leader or both. Most dogs don't really want to be a pack leader - it's stressful thinking you've got to be on guard 24/7. If his methods help people rearrange their pack structure and enable the dogs to relax, then awesome.

As for his alpha rolling, thigh taps etc... Those dogs are in an unstable mind at that time. Charging at fences, showing signs of aggression etc. If he can give them a quick correction to gain their attention and take their focus off the other thing, I don't see that as a bad thing.

I've read threads on here with people talking about how they've tried to separate fighting dogs. Saying they'd not hesitate to use a stick or any object on the dog doing the attacking. So if that's ok, why is it not ok to use a much lesser correction to redirect before the dog attacks? I would much rather know the dog on the other side of the street to us is getting a jab in the thigh to get its attention off Orbit and I, rather than nothing at all and the dog getting free and attacking us?

Whilst I don't think people should go around alpha rolling their aggressive dogs, I do think there would be a lot more calm, balanced dogs in the world if people followed his general pack leader concept and treated their dogs as dogs. The amount of people I see patting their dogs when they're frightened or being aggressive is amazing.

[mita]

Something Cesar Milan said in his program made me think. He talked about what's going on with the dog's 'state', BEFORE the usual trained commands kick in. So I added 2 things to what I do with Annie, my tibbie....& they worked!

First, giving the dog a tap on the part of the body that needs to respond.

Late at night, I tell Annie to 'Come' as she has to go out to the toilet. It's the only time, she can just keep lying there, snug little fat creature, woken from sleep, in her bed. I finish up, picking her up & carrying her out. Never happens in any other situation.

So I tried giving her a tap on her side (more a touch), just beside those back legs that need to hoist herself up. As I said 'Come!'. To my amazement, up she got & followed me out. Next night, I just touched her again....& up she came. Still amazed. Third night I walked in & she got up without my doing anything. Just figuring the context.

Second, making a noise to 'break thro'' a dog's state of mind.

Annie was lying in a room, when the cat brought the baby gate down with a heck of a crash. While puss scrambled underneath to get out, Annie went into an anxiety state....The ceiling's falling in on all of us!!!! With tail down, she headed for the steps to flee downstairs. Instead of going straight to 'Come!', I gave a hissing noise.

Her state of mind changed instantly from anxiety with panic....to curiousity, as she looked at me & turned away from the steps. Back up went the upcurled tail. Her body language changed instantly to, Ok, mum, so what's on? Back to her usual confident tibbie attitude. Then I got down low & said 'Come!'. Panic gone, she came to me, with anxiety forgotten.

Edited March 21, 2011 by mita

[corvus]

Taint him all you like you cannot mess with results.

Whoa. You certainly can. Results are all in the interpretation, especially when we're talking about a "problem" behaviour.

Incidentally, ever tried a clicker to "break thro" a dog's state of mind? I love it especially because it puts them right into training mode in an instant.

Edited March 21, 2011 by corvus

[sandgrubber]

We need to stand back before forming judgements on CM. He's from a culture (rural Mexico) that doesn't see dogs as sentinent, he relates to dogs better than he does to people (I think a few of us can relate to that), and he has become a TV star, with all the pressures that go with the job. I presume the media prefers the meanest dogs and the most extreme miracle cures . . . and of course wants everything to be resolved in a 30 minute episode.

I don't get TV and have only watched a few Dog Whisperer DVD's, which I found impressive. . . though it would be good to see a 2 year on follow-up on the dogs and people involved.

I don't think we should get so hung up on passing judgement, and instead focus on learning on what we can learn. . . in my view, the guy has amazing skill in dealing with dog/people problems. I started this thread cause it was great to find an article that focussed on body-language aspects of this skill . . . and cause I'd watched a few people trying to copy the words ('whispers') but not getting the body language (the 'dance'). I'd encourage people to read the article . . . link to a free download provided in the first post in this thread.

Edited March 21, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Aidan3]

Well said, sandgrubber

Edited March 21, 2011 by Aidan2

[Diva]

Well said, sandgrubber

Yes it's a good post. I've also read that essay and agree it's an interesting observation from a non-dog person. I'd also love to see a 2 year follow-up on the dogs.

[LizT]

Over the years I have learnt from both my experiences with horse and dog trainers to;

"pay attention, learn what you can, glean what you like (ie. separate the wheat from the chaff and USE BOTH for different purposes) both are useful but different.

Apply what works for you, discard what doesn't but put it aside for another day and another situation. BTW "Life is a dance...but we all have a different drum to beat