"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[Staranais]

I don't bother watching his show.

Some dog & handler combinations do benefit from using corrections, some aggressive dogs probably do benefit from being taken over threshold then corrected.

But why would I want to watch that? The show would be more interesting & more educational if they showed owners how to deal with simple problems by themselves. Showing people how to get a loose leash walk, how to break down a behaviour & clicker train it, how to socialise a puppy, how to teach/reinforce behaviours like recall or settle down on a bed, how to safely play tug with a dog, how to countercondition a dog to something that worries it, would all be things that people watching could try at home.

Guess that's not glamorous enough to make a TV show, though. They want to show the really hard cases & deal with them in a dramatic way.

ETA, even people with "red zone" dogs (whatever that term means) often still need to learn basic dog training skills, and I furthermore suspect that many dogs wouldn't become "red zone" cases if their owners had known how to train them from the word go.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Staranais

[sandgrubber]

Hey, why does everything have to be a debate?

Ok, lots of opinionated people, a controversial subject, off she goes.

I would have liked to see more discussion of movement and rhythm as affecting communication with dogs . . . and I'm disappointed that several people jumped on the 'cruelty' bandwagon (in my book, the most serious dog cruelty I see, and I see it regularly, is putting an active, social animal in solitary confinement with little exercise, and then getting mad at the poor thing cause it goes nuts and starts destroying stuff). Also disappointed that those critical of CM didn't pick up on the hardest part of dog training . . . training the owners. From what I've watched of CM, the owners sit and watch in awe, then enjoy a half an hour of dealing with a dog that has been calmed and put in line by calm assertive treatment, delivered in a way that speaks to a dog's brain. But I doubt they have really learned CM's technique . . . which if Gladwell is correct in the 'dance' assertion, is going to be hard to duplicate. I've tried to work with two aspiring dog trainers in my kennel management days: one a CM devotee, one a new-school German with years of Schutz and an emphasis on positive reinforcement via play. Both had great dog handling skills. Both failed cause they couldn't transfer what they know to the dog owners. And I've seen a fair share of my kennel clients go out for training, show improvement for awhile, and then slip back into the 'same old used-to-be'. Dog training requires skill. Dog owner training . . . often requires someone who can talk the spots off a leopard.

p.s. thinking back over my own contribution, and the typical Myth Busters crash scenes, I realise I missed a term in the physics argument. Yes, Pressure = force/area and area increases as a squared term . . . so a flat palm is not the same as a knuckle or toe. But it's equally important that force comes from change in kinetic energy, ie, a moving object crashing to a stop and transferring the energy in its motion. Kinetic energy increases as the square of velocity (ie speed) X mass (ie, weight). So, you can do a lot of damage from a fast kick developed from a full leg swing (long swing allows more gain in momentum). (In self defense class we were taught to move into a punch so the aggressor couldn't develop a full swing). And kicking a mobile bit, eg, a tail, doesn't transfer much momentum, so it does little. Jeez. May even be that kicking a small dog so that it flies across the room delivers a lot of fright, but not so much pain, while kicking a massive dog really hits home. Maybe that's why abused ankle biters don't give up. . . they've learned that getting the boot is aggressive, but not dangerous.

All in all, I think it's been a good thread, and thanks to everybody for contributing.

Edited March 23, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Monah]

At the video posted.

Too many people on this forum think that they have all the answers,

Let me know when anyone here ever gets their own show and becomes a world renown trainer then I'll be sure to take your criticism into account

I know many excellent trainers and behaviourists.

If how good someone is is based on having a TV show, then Charlie Sheen, Andrew Johns etc. must be truly wonderful.

agree staranais.xxx I've watched a few shows so I can see what others are talking about, but I'm not a fan.

Great posts Aidan, very imformative.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Monah

[Shakti]

I agree that watching CM is like watching a brilliant natural dancer and the give and take or back and forth between him and the dog is very subtle. I do think that CM struggles to put into words sometimes what it is exactly that he is observing and responding to as for him it seems almost instinctive (or that it happens on a level which maks it seem that way)

That is why his show stresses that others should not try these techniques as it is not a method whereby *If your dog does A then you must do B and that will create C* He responds to what energy the dog is displaying to him and vice versa.

I think the greatest athletes, dancers, duellists etc all have this ability and it is very very hard to translate that simply into a series of technical steps.

Thank you to all the people on this thread who responded aith intelligent and educated comments - I have learned a lot!

[sandgrubber]

Great post!!!

I agree that watching CM is like watching a brilliant natural dancer and the give and take or back and forth between him and the dog is very subtle. I do think that CM struggles to put into words sometimes what it is exactly that he is observing and responding to as for him it seems almost instinctive (or that it happens on a level which maks it seem that way)

That is why his show stresses that others should not try these techniques as it is not a method whereby *If your dog does A then you must do B and that will create C* He responds to what energy the dog is displaying to him and vice versa.

I think the greatest athletes, dancers, duellists etc all have this ability and it is very very hard to translate that simply into a series of technical steps.

Thank you to all the people on this thread who responded aith intelligent and educated comments - I have learned a lot!

[corvus]

I agree that watching CM is like watching a brilliant natural dancer and the give and take or back and forth between him and the dog is very subtle. I do think that CM struggles to put into words sometimes what it is exactly that he is observing and responding to as for him it seems almost instinctive (or that it happens on a level which maks it seem that way)

I disagree. I don't think it is terribly subtle. I have watched that JonBee video over and over in the last few days and yes, there are subtleties as there are subtleties in any interaction, but I just don't see many positive ones that help the dog. There's a point where Cesar loses control of the leash and his body language takes on a different tone altogether. Suddenly he puffs his chest out and moves more stiffly. It is interesting, but then JonBee tries to stop him from picking the leash up again. Cesar apparently either saw this coming or has seen it before because he looped the leash away from the dog with his foot before he tried to pick it up and JonBee still went for him when he reached for it with his hand. I have looked and looked and I just don't see how the change in his body language affected JonBee at all. As far as I can see JonBee was too far gone already to be paying much attention to Cesar's body language. There are times when Cesar's movements are fluid and certain and there are times when they are not. He just looks like a guy with a degree of confidence to me. Judging by JonBee's body language, that's what he sees as well. I certainly didn't see any rhythm soothing JonBee. The dog never looked especially soothed in the entire clip.

There used to be a show called Barking Mad made by the BBC where they had a team of behaviourists solving problems with a variety of animals. There was a horse trainer on there called Kelly Marks. She was mostly very nice to horses, but every now and then she got firm with one and pushed it beyond its comfort level with very positive results. I loved watching her work. She did have a beautiful, subtle language of give and take going with horses. Somehow she knew exactly when a horse needed firm handling. It was rare, and she had one or two really serious cases. I felt her interactions with them were harmonious. Harmonious interactions are beautiful to watch. Competitive interactions, not so much.

[Quickasyoucan]

Hey, why does everything have to be a debate?

Ok, lots of opinionated people, a controversial subject, off she goes.

I would have liked to see more discussion of movement and rhythm as affecting communication with dogs . . .

Sorry have mucked up the quoting a bit. Have been thinking abou the movement and rythmn thing (not specifically in relation to CM).

I think if you can get it right it is a strong source of communication with dogs. When you meet the rare people that seem inately to have that energy and ability and timing with animals it is awesome to watch,

I do believe people are born with it. You meet people who don't necessarily have any formal training or connection with dogs and they just have it. I also notice that those same people are often quietly spoken, the focus is on the physical and not the oral.

I think we can assimilate or "learn' elements of their behaviour but I personally believe you either have it or you don't. No matter how you break it down on a step by step basis and say do this or this, translating it into the physical is no easy thing.

However, also think that unknowingly we exhibit elements of the behaviour. My dog is roughly 8 we have now settled into that wonderful routine of the physical "conversation" where we understand what the other wants. I expect that is largely down to my dogs ability to read me rather than mine to do the "dance" but nonetheless it is something that never ceases to amaze me.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Quickasyoucan

[Zen]

Kick - used to damage an object / move an object a great distance

Tap - used to get attention (and in this case, without damaging or moving the object a great distance)

I'd definately pay to find someone in Sydney who can do the same job as Cesar Millan. In fact, I'm looking for one right now. His results do all the talking. Happy to hire any dog behaviourist who can tell the difference between a Kick and a tap.

[poodlefan]

Aidan address my question.

WHAT is the actual debate? Then if I know what the debate is perhaps I can participate like an adult. For an example are we debating that C.M's methods are cruel? Are we debating that C.M's methods are ineffective? Or are members just debating amongst themselves about whether or not they agree to his methods? Or are we debating that his methods are effective? I cannot see one singular topic of debate but instead a whole series of such so I am confused. What is it exactly that we are debating?

Topics for debate: Is becoming "an effective pack leader" really all that stands between most dog owners and their dog's behavioural problems? If you think the answer is yes, you've never owned a resource guarder.

Is genetics, environment and learned experience no significant influence?

Is all undesireable dog behaviour motivated by the quest to establish dominance over people?

Is "leadership" the answer to most if not all dog issues.

You know what? I don't think Mr Milan would argue for the affirmative. But that's how it seems to me that his devotees see it.

The man's a talented dog trainer but to suggest that his methods will be effective on every dog or for every handler stretches his methods further than he would go IMO. He'd also be the first one to tell you that what he does isn't safe for most owners. If that's the case, unless you can take your dog to see him, why would you advocate his methods?

I will wholeheartedly endorse his view that most dogs will benefit from increased exercise and that your emotional state will impact on your dog. But Mr Milan hardly has a monopoly on those ideas. IMO he's taken the methodoloy espoused by the Monks of New Skete decades ago and dressed it up for TV.

Edited April 13, 2011 by poodlefan

[Shakti]

Hey Zen - I doubt that Steve of K9Pro would ever kick or even tap a dog but in terms of being extremely effective with dogs of all breeds and all temperaments he is the best! I have actually made the trip from Melbourne to have a consult with him in NSW. He is especially experienced in dealing with dogs others find too dominant or too *hard*

[john.davey.1960]

I find CM brilliant. He has to solve problems stat, not keep coming back and forth. If it saves the dog's life, good on him.

[aussielover]

I find CM brilliant. He has to solve problems stat, not keep coming back and forth. If it saves the dog's life, good on him.

Thats not really true. He often follows up 2 or three times to see how things are going and to help the owner who is often still struggling.

And you have to remember it is TV- there are few long term follow ups (ie months or years later), so we don't really know whether he has had long term success and really fixed the problem forever.

Also, behavioural problems often take months to years to develop, why would they only take like 1 hour or even 1 day to fix?

Imo, a good trainer is one that works with you over time, to help manage a situation/behaviour and resolve the behaviour over time.

i think it is good that he saves lives and i totally agree with his exercise, discipline, affection concept.