"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[DerRottweiler]

My friend has a dog, he is an adult male Rottweiler and is the biggest one i have ever seen weighing in at almost 70kgs now (20kgs above standard).

His nick name is 'grizzly bear'. This dog happens to be very dominant and aggressive towards other humans/dogs. This dog cannot understand the concept of positive reinforcement. Techniques that CM uses worked on this dog. A very strong, crazy dog is now somewhat under control and tolerable, but still needs to be watched closely.

[corvus]

Thanks for the link to the essays.

Here's a little extract . . . from a section where the author and dance therapist review an episode where CM calms a highly HA dog

"Do you see how rythmic it is?" Tortora said. "He [CM] pulls. He waits. He pulls. He waits. The phrasing is so lovely. It's predictable. To a dog that is all over the place, he's bringing a rythm. But it isn't a panicked rythm. It has a moderate tempo to it. There was room to wander. And it's not attack, attack. It wasn't long sustained. It was quick and light. I would bet that with dogs like this, where people are so afraid of them being aggressive and so defensive around them, there is a lot of aggressive strength directed at them. There is no aggression here. He's using strength without it being aggressive."

When I first read this it made sense to me and I agreed with it. It's a very persuasive argument. But when I stopped to think about it, I changed my mind. I don't agree. However nicely he moves, however rhythmically and predictably, what is that predictability supposed to bring to a worried dog? Animals find comfort and security in predictability, but if given the choice "you can have this guy pull on you rhythmically or you can not engage with him at all", what do you think they would choose? If they have no history with him, I think they'd choose not to engage. If they had some history with him, I think they'd choose to engage.

To me, Cesar comes on too strong. At times he offers dogs no chance to withdraw if the pressure is too much for them. He just floods them right through their threshold and that's when he gets bit. He does it deliberately because I think he believes it has to happen for him to achieve the state in the dog he wants to achieve. I think that it doesn't have to happen. I think if you give an animal a predictable routine even if it's only a 5 minute one once a day, they will come to depend on it. The more little routines you give them, the more they trust you and the more they depend on you. Your very presence comes to mean safety and security. They know how things go down around you. That's not to say you never push the envelope, but I think pushing them should become part of the routine way you interact with them. Pressure, release, never too much. You're showing them what they can do and showing them that they can cope. And you're providing them with a predictable framework so they feel safe with you, even when you're pushing them. You build up their tolerance and confidence. They know that whatever happens, they will be all right.

When I see dogs in Cesar's presence after he has laid down the law, I see dogs that have had their entire world come crashing down on them. They do nothing because they don't know what to do. Every response that used to work doesn't anymore. Sometimes it's then that they try to have a go at him. To me, this is a cruel way of fixing the problem. It doesn't matter that it has to change and the dog and people will be better off for it. It doesn't matter whether the dog will completely get over it or not. It matters that a dog has suddenly been cast adrift from what he knows and he didn't have to be. You can teach them the new rules so that they never know what happened. I think that for all the subtlety Millan undeniably has in his natural body language, he still lacks subtlety in his understanding of dog behaviour. The other night he had a dummy dog approach a SWF. He completely missed or ignored the calming signals the dummy dog was shooting out and the uncertainty the dummy dog was displaying. Is it fair to bring a dog into a situation it is not comfortable with to make a point with another dog? Where were the massages and steady rhythms for that dog?

[corvus]

For those interested, there's a video of the first part of the segment with JonBee that the essay is talking about here:

When I look at it, to me every minute pull Millan does on the leash makes JonBee appear more and more nervous.

I think it's a really interesting video because JonBee's behaviour is a little unusual IMO. He's not saying "Please don't touch me" and then going over threshold when he is touched and snapping. He's saying "You will not touch me." and he only really loses it when it doesn't work. I have met one or two dogs like that. I like them. There's a point where Millan reaches for the leash and he snaps at him. He's like "You won't touch that, either." I was impressed he understood what the leash meant. I think he's a beautiful, fascinating dog. I've no idea what would or wouldn't have worked on him. I have no idea what his temperament was really like or what had been tried aside from attempts to physically dominate him. I just don't think that Millan's mesmerising body language did much for him other than shorten the length of time he was stressed out of his brain and maybe help him calm down more quickly. Maybe.

[Cosmolo]

Look at the tension in his back legs at the end of the video when he 'submits'. Its impossible to comment without knowing the whole situation but if the dog only had issue when they tried to roll him over, there are a variety of methods they could try- perhaps they had tried and failed, i don't know. I would question the ability of any owner to follow through with that kind of training with that kind of dog/ issue though.

[Vickie]

For those with lots of negativity towards Caesar, do you see any positives?

As someone who has watched many episodes, I try different things from time to time that I have seen him do. Some of them I have never done & others I realise I already do when I consciously try them.

Example

I can easily walk 4/5 of my dogs together with no pulling or bustling. It wasn't until I watched the show that I realized I pretty much always walk multiple dogs the way he does.

I have a friend that I walk with sometimes. Her dogs pull like crazy & react to their surroundings a lot. If I give her my dogs & I take hers, mine are a little worse & hers are a little better.

If I take either of hers & walk it with mine, it is perfect within a couple of minutes.

Same if we are at the beach. Her dogs are reactive by themselves & she keeps them onlead. When we are together, hers are not reactive & seem happy to follow the lead of my dogs.

There are things he does that I would never do, but much of it makes sense, especially since I am rarely in contact with dogs who are not in the normal range.

[poodlefan]

For those with lots of negativity towards Caesar, do you see any positives?

Absolutely and I've made the point before.

He emphasises the importance of exercise and boundaries. Very important messages.

He thinks working breeds need to be given a job. Another big tick.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Kavik]

I am not a fan of Cesar. Dislike a lot of the stuff he does.

However for me one of the things that I do like is his emphasis on how the mental state of the handler effects the behaviour of the dog. If I am calmer, so are my dogs.

[Cosmolo]

I agree with PF's and Kaviks positives.

[Keira&Phoenix]

For anyone who hasn't seen the video I have found a working link see below

http://www.dancingdogblog.com/2011/03/cesa...-training-tool/

[Cosmolo]

The roller blade one, Malamute and the scrubbing brush bulldog are particularly disturbing to me. I accept that some of the video is propaganda but i look at the dogs, they don't have an agenda.

[Keira&Phoenix]

That first German Shepherd near the start he gives that a good ol' kick to the next.

Yes there are few things in that video I find disturbing.

[Nekhbet]

yes people see what they want to see.

I can see in a couple of those he flanks the dogs to elicit a response and correct it - something positive people dont do. Set up for failure - sometimes you have to do this in order to help a dog. You cannot just avoid all responses and train that way, then say the dog is 100% trustworthy in all cases. Its not possible for all dogs some need to learn from their failures.

As for stringing up, it avoids the handler being bitten and will calm a dog if done properly. If a dog flips its lid and you tighten the collar soon the brain goes 'OH HELL!' and focus falls from the target back to itself. DD collars are for similar things. It's based on removal of the punisher when the dog calms down, yes it works very well for some animals.

Cesars methods are confrontational and does set up the dog to lose in some cases initially in order to 1) experience the behaviour and 2) show the animal the consequence for exhibiting this behaviour then shows the alternative. Not everyones cup of tea, if you dont like how he does it dont watch it. But to call it abuse is a load of BS.

[Cosmolo]

Nek- are you really okay with all of that video footage? Some of it i don't have issue with (despite the fact that its not something i would actually do) but some i find quite disturbing.

I completely understand the use of stringing up and i have had to do it myself on a few occassions to avoid being bitten. But thats where i see its place being- bite prevention rather than a routine training tool.

[Nekhbet]

considering a TV show is going to be based on best TV viewing, hence the most reactive animals and 'exciting' clients can you whole heartedly say he would do to that level with every dog he came across?

If he actually kicked a dog and it hurt, i'm sure you've seen a dog in pain before, you'd hear about it. Considering the dogs in those videos are already in an extremely hightened state what reaction are you expecting from a surprise?

I've seen video of that malamute a million times and the bit most of the 'OMG LOOK AT THE ABUSE' videos fail to show is how torn up the owner have been by that dog. That dog wasnt choked until it was blue, it had pressure applied until it made the decision to get over its tantrum. The second 'kick' it gets while staring down the border collie is redirection onto the handler - which is probably the more major problem he came to fix with that dog.

As for that AmBull with the scrubbing brush, I havn't seen the episode so I dont know in what context he flanked the dog to that degree.

There's full stringing up then there's applying pressure. Thats what his Illusion Collars are about, you are not meant to correct the dog like you would with a chain you simply apply sustained pressure to the dog until the excitement level decreases, then you reward in that state. I use methods like that on some animals, epecially extremely reactive or aggressive reaction animals with a lot of success. If they redirect then you can lift the leash and let the dog decide what it prefers, taking a chunk out of my leg or breathing. Either way heavy rewarding will always be part of my training no matter what I do.

Cesars 'kick' method aint my thing. If it works for him and it's not causing harm good luck to him. I dont think that makes him a bad person considering the types of dogs he deals with. Easy for a lot of us to sit back and cast stones when most have not dealt with dogs of that level.

[Aidan3]

yes people see what they want to see.

Indeed!

I can see in a couple of those he flanks the dogs to elicit a response and correct it - something positive people dont do. Set up for failure - sometimes you have to do this in order to help a dog.

As you know, I don't accept this premise, but even if I did - why is it necessary to use his foot? It's not hard to put a dog over threshold, especially one of these "red zone" dogs that only Cesar works with apparently. What benefit does an entirely new stimulus offer?

You cannot just avoid all responses and train that way, then say the dog is 100% trustworthy in all cases.

If we're able to put the dog into more and more challenging situations then we can demonstrate some level of reliability by the dog not responding with aggression. Sure, we can never say the dog will never respond with aggression ever again, but we establish a probability.

If we elicit the response, then correct it, what extra measure of reliability does that give us? What principle are we applying that gives us confidence that the response is now gone? How is that probability any different to the probability I describe above?

[kelpiekaye]

I am always amazed when I watch his show and see all his rescued dogs mixing together. Rotties, Pitbulls, Shepherds, Mixes etc That takes some doing. I have known different breeders and dog owners over the years that cant have all their pack out together. I would imagine a lot of the dogs he deals with would end up being PTS if their behaviour couldnt be improved.

[Aidan3]

Easy for a lot of us to sit back and cast stones when most have not dealt with dogs of that level.

One of those Danes was pretty scary. I would have to know a lot more about the back stories to judge any of the other dogs, but they didn't look any different to the reactive and aggressive dogs I imagine we all see. Are there any stand-outs you think I should take a closer look at? I'm willing to reconsider.

[animalia]

I have seen most of those episodes. No I don't always agree with everything ceasar does, but I think in those instances the saying "the only thing two trainers will agree on, is what the third is doing wrong". However I think no matter what training methods you believe in, you have to agree that ceasar saves A LOT of dogs that would of ended up being put down.

The video I don't agree with, ceasar clearly doesn't cause the dogs any harm, and the video neglected to add what the background of some of the dogs were. There was one in particular, a brindle pit bull standing next to a pot plant with a muzzle on, this pit bull was SERVERLY people aggressive and would lunge and try to latch on to peoples chest and face. After ceasar spent time with him he was a lot better, ceasar was even able to pat the dog and a neighbour was able to enter the house. Ceasar went back again because no trainer can fix a dog like that in one day and helped them walk him in the streets, the dog made huge progress and people could now enter the owners house (dog was muzzled) and not try to attack them like he used to and would just chill on a mat, the dog was still muzzled through the advice from ceasar as he said that this case was one of the worst aggression cases he has seen and said to be safe when he's around people muzzle him.

Call me crazy but if it works and he gets results like that he knows what he is doing.

[corvus]

I do see good things about him, but I am so freaking tired of having every balancing statement I make utterly ignored that I don't see any point sharing them. If you don't love him you're a CM basher, no matter how many virtues of his you can think up or how many times you extoll them. So call me a CM basher. It's better than the things I've been called when I've tried to be fair to him.

I thought that Mal was a wolfdog?

[Monah]

I am not a fan of Cesar. Dislike a lot of the stuff he does.

However for me one of the things that I do like is his emphasis on how the mental state of the handler effects the behaviour of the dog. If I am calmer, so are my dogs.

very true. watched his show tonight and enjoyed it much more. It was logical and sensible One show does not turn me into a fan though. Like everything, if you can take the well done parts, and ditch the bits that dont gel with you very well, you can get somethinig out of it. Most that do that though would have a bit of knowledge and not take everything he does literally and it's those people that he needs to target which is what I think he managed tonight.