"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[Dogsrawesome]

CM get's results at the end of the day, there is no faking cases with his "red level" dog aggressive dogs being in his pack acting friendly..

The man knows his sh.t, he can read the dogs, the behaviour and there needs.

yes i also would love to see someone with a bag of freshly cooked chicken and my dog on the end of the leash, go for your life as you won't get anywhere with his aggression.

Teaching him exercises, like sit, in a area with no dogs yes!

motivation training works perfectly, add a dog, the chicken is nothing more then a bade of glass on his nose, if the dog is at a level of intensity, food is not going to snap him out of it it has to be an action.

All dog are individuals, what works for some, may not work for others i am open to that totally.

if a dog doesn't want to do a exercise for food even if he knows it, how else are you mean't to get him to do the behaviour you asked ?

ask the stubbon one kindly ?

reminds me of parents and their kids, common sense.

I love how you worded this and its true.

[Kirty]

The thing is that CM is not dealing with your average pet either. He is dealing with idiot owners (most of the time) who have let their dog become a monster. These are dogs with serious behavioural problems that are facing an uncertain future. They need to be stopped NOW. What we see on TV are aggressive, dominant, feral little turds that are beyond basic positive reinforcement. He has a lot of good advice for people to prevent their dogs getting to that stage though, which people need to pay attention to.

[Aidan3]

yes i also would love to see someone with a bag of freshly cooked chicken and my dog on the end of the leash, go for your life as you won't get anywhere with his aggression.

Teaching him exercises, like sit, in a area with no dogs yes!

motivation training works perfectly, add a dog, the chicken is nothing more then a bade of glass on his nose, if the dog is at a level of intensity, food is not going to snap him out of it it has to be an action.

No, if they are a problem then food will not "snap them out of it". I think a lot of people try this and are disappointed, trainers included. It doesn't work that way, that isn't positive reinforcement, reinforcement means you increased the behaviour. The next time the dog is presented with the same environment, you see the reinforced response again which is what we all want.

We need to build those responses without putting the dog over threshold too far, and a lot of people don't know how to do that, or are disappointed when something happens that is out of their control (and it WILL). Or they think that the only way they can do it is to control the environment too much, which isn't practical.

Competent positive reinforcement training isn't particularly restrictive. We usually have dogs working with other dogs within a couple of weeks, and we get robust reinforcement - more of the behaviours that we want. There are always exceptions, but really most dogs fall somewhere on the bell curve, the extremes aren't all that common. The Michael Vick pit fighting rescues are up there with the worst of them, and the rescue org who took them on didn't do anything I wouldn't do (where is the love for those guys, btw?)

If you're using corrections every time your dog is around another dog, then all you're really doing is interrupting. The behavior should be improving. You should be able to start to use food around other dogs very quickly, not to prove a point about positive reinforcement, but as a bit of a demonstration that your dog is not highly anxious.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

motivation training works perfectly, add a dog, the chicken is nothing more then a bade of glass on his nose

You have to add the dog further away... and then build the relationship from there. If the DA dog cannot pay attention, the distracting dog is too close.

However I do believe there are some bonkers dogs out there for which a bucket of chicken and one training session will not do it. Some of those dogs have brain injuries or tumours, and it wouldn't matter what a trainer did, the dog could not think straight.

[Aidan3]

The thing is that CM is not dealing with your average pet either. He is dealing with idiot owners (most of the time) who have let their dog become a monster. These are dogs with serious behavioural problems that are facing an uncertain future. They need to be stopped NOW.

Honest question, do you think those dogs are any worse than the dogs that behaviourists in Australia have to deal with? If so, what do you think the reason for that would be?

[Cosmolo]

I see dogs on a regular basis that are like the ones Caesar has on his show.

Snap, Aidan!

[Cosmolo]

Has everyone seen the video montage of the number of "taps" used? The frequency and variance in amount of pressure surprised me- and made me hope that people really don't try that at home!

I just went to find the vid and its been removed due to copyright claims.

[corvus]

if a dog doesn't want to do a exercise for food even if he knows it, how else are you mean't to get him to do the behaviour you asked ?

ask the stubbon one kindly ?

There are so many assumptions, there. Off the top of my head:

a) The dog "knows" it

b) The dog perceived the cue

c) Food is a reward in this situation

d) The reward history is strong enough

e) The dog is under threshold

f) The behaviour is comfortable and does not cause pain

g) The cue for the behaviour is the most salient stimuli

h) The cue to the dog is what the handler thinks it is

If you do apply P+ or P- as a consequence for not doing the behaviour cued, are you decreasing the incidence of "not doing as asked" or are you decreasing the incidence of whatever the dog was doing instead? Dogs are always behaving. I'd say use R- if you feel you must do something. I wouldn't bother, though.

[Lablover]

I have a simple brain. KISS works for me. Kiss "keep it simple stupid".

CM is an expert in avoidance training. Big deal!!!

[benshiva]

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

I think people who like CM must be on huge personal powertrips and it makes them feel good about themselves to show their dog how much more powerful they are.

What a crock :

[sandgrubber]

I think us humans look at this backwards. The important thing is how it affects the dog.

Humans are wimps about pain. Dogs I have known are more fussed by the message that accompanies pain than by the pain itself. Eg, I had a ball-mad Lab who got smashed, full-strength, in the face with a tennis racquet while playing fetch with a teenager. Didn't put her off the slightest. She went right back to wagging with the ball in her mouth, encouraging the kid to hit the thing again. My old girl puts up with some pretty rough bites from pups without flinching. My pup loves a slap on the butt or shoulder . . . regards it as affection. I've seen a dog get bitten bloody by small vermin they are hunting and go back at it with glee. But with most of the dogs I've owned, even a feigned hit that made no contact would have their tail between their legs . . . or even fear urination.

From the dog's perspective, physical discomfort seems secondary to the message/context of that pain. Is it is done aggressively, calmly, or playfully, or was it a part of the predator prey battle (with the biter being the prey)? That is what the Gladwell article gets at.

I am NOT saying it's ok to hit or otherwise hurt a dog. I'm saying that dogs care at least as much about how it is done than about what is done . . . and that our body language and voice tone matter at least as much as what we say or do to the dog.

Edited March 19, 2011 by sandgrubber

[_PL_]

Has everyone seen the video montage of the number of "taps" used? The frequency and variance in amount of pressure surprised me- and made me hope that people really don't try that at home!

I just went to find the vid and its been removed due to copyright claims.

Saw that. But lost interest halfway through. It wasn't exactly unbiased.

But yes you're right, people see something relatable and then become instant experts despite the disclaimers. I've seen some shockers 'disciplining' their dogs in parks and that was long before CM.

[Aidan3]

I think us humans look at this backwards. The important thing is how it affects the dog.

Well that's exactly what I've been saying

If you take a frightened dog, load it up on the stimulus that frightens it, then "tap" it in the inguinal region with your foot (I don't regard them as taps, btw), with the intention of surprising it - you wouldn't be overly surprised if the dog came back and bit you. And that is exactly what happens on some occasions.

What sort of effect on the dog should we avoid, if not that?

[Nekhbet]

Not "extreme" dogs, but definitely dogs with reactions similar to those of many dogs I've seen on The Dog Whisperer.

Similar or the same? If its not the same then the point it not valid.

What sort of effect on the dog should we avoid, if not that?

And in some cases how do we teach the dog that if it does react in that manner there is a consequence to it, hence it should stop reacting like that? You cannot simply work through totally avoiding the dog reacting forever. Sometimes we have to push the envelope and get the dog to react then teach it when it does.

ETA by the way has anyone ever watched how dogs fix each others behavioural problems? No treat pouches or prey toys there is there. It's listen to the head honcho dogs or get a flogging when you push the point. Bad manners dogs are instantly pinned and warned, then sent scampering off to think about it. I'm not saying we have to be mean, but dogs are physical creatures. It's part of how they interact with each other. Why we're frightened of touching our dogs these days is insane.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Nekhbet

[Guest]

what ever Caeser Milan's methods are they appear to work,and the dogs always look a lot calmer after he has worked with them.

He does a remarkable job of rehabilitating dogs, that would otherwise be put to sleep.

lablove

[Boronia]

what ever Caeser Milan's methods are they appear to work,and the dogs always look a lot calmer after he has worked with them.

He does a remarkable job of rehabilitating dogs, that would otherwise be put to sleep.

lablove

+ 1

[jacqui835]

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

I think people who like CM must be on huge personal powertrips and it makes them feel good about themselves to show their dog how much more powerful they are.

What a crock :

You can apply Cesar's methods without being violent towards your dog - the only time I see him use physical force on a dog is when it's at the end of the road, about to be put down and has some serious issues and results need to be achieved quickly. I have raised my dog based on Cesar's methods from day 1 and he is a very well balanced, confident and happy dog who can feel comfortable and trust in us because we pay attention to him and watch for his attempts to communicate.

What I admire about Cesar is that he watches and recognises the signs, and if your dog feels like you're seeing and understanding the situation, they (in my experience at least) tend to be a lot happier to surrender to your command and not be so worried about everything. The problem I think stems more from the fact that people watch only part of the show or read only a bit of the book and then go and try and apply particular steps completely out of context.

I'll never forget there was an idiot at Centennial Park back in Sydney who I saw a couple of times, who was going around trying to roll everyone's dogs and saying it needed to be done so that they could then all be friends. He said he was a CM expert. Some of the dogs just accepted it, some ran away, and some displayed defensive behaviour (which in some cases the owners then attempted to punish), but all of the dogs were very uncomfortable. He then approached my dog and grabbed his collar and starting trying to roll him. My dog growled and slipped away and ran to my side. I told the guy not to lay another hand on my dog, and in return, received a massive lecture about how I was ruining my dog etc. Fortunately, I was well-known enough around there as having a very well-trained dog who didn't cause any problems in the park that several people stood up to him, and he left, saying that we were creating dangerous dogs or some crap. Didn't see him again.

Although I personally really admire CM, for the most part, I run for the hills if someone comes up to me and claims to be a CM endorser. I have met very few people who I would actually class as CM endorsers, and I would also argue that the majority of people couldn't achieve what he does because more than anything, it's about the frame of mind. I know that for me at least, it's a lot easier to be calm and assertive with other people's dogs than with my own, because emotions get in the way, so whilst I try, I would not class myself as competent either, but at least I think I'm better than what I was before I saw CM at understanding my dog and communicating with him.

[Aidan3]

Similar or the same? If its not the same then the point it not valid.

What sort of effect on the dog should we avoid, if not that?

And in some cases how do we teach the dog that if it does react in that manner there is a consequence to it, hence it should stop reacting like that? You cannot simply work through totally avoiding the dog reacting forever. Sometimes we have to push the envelope and get the dog to react then teach it when it does.

Sorry, I don't agree that we need to get the dog to react so that we can use a punishing consequence to teach it not to react. We can teach a dog what to do in those situations without a punisher. I'm not saying that it isn't useful to use punishers, but I disagree that it's a necessary condition.

There is nothing necessary in what Cesar does with Shadow, the Malamute, for e.g. He deliberately loads the dog up, kicks him, then when the dog predictably goes for him he chokes him, doesn't do that properly either, and gets bitten. That isn't necessary, and my understanding is that Shadow was not successfully rehabilitated.

Everything I do is about pushing the envelope and teaching the dog what to do when that happens. If you aren't progressing steadily, you are doing something wrong in my opinion.

ETA by the way has anyone ever watched how dogs fix each others behavioural problems? No treat pouches or prey toys there is there. It's listen to the head honcho dogs or get a flogging when you push the point. Bad manners dogs are instantly pinned and warned, then sent scampering off to think about it. I'm not saying we have to be mean, but dogs are physical creatures. It's part of how they interact with each other. Why we're frightened of touching our dogs these days is insane.

No, but a dog trainer is not a dog either. And we know that treats and prey toys work, if used competently. I don't think we're all frightened of touching dogs, although some are. There are lots of different ways you can touch a dog, and a lot of different contexts. I don't think Cesar gets it right all the time, and I think he crosses an unacceptable boundary some of those times.

Healthy, stable dogs do not do a lot of touching as discipline (although lots for affection and play). They have pretty good body language, not always great though, often poor submission. Really dominant dogs are masters of avoiding physical violence and aggression. Large packs of free-ranging domestic dogs do fairly poorly, they end up with an unstable hierarchy and they do damage to each other. Cesar is the master at controlling a large pack of unrelated dogs, a very unnatural situation even for domestic dogs.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Aidan2

[Dogsrawesome]

Has anyone seen dogs or wolves in a pack together by themselves im pretty sure they treat each other the same as CM rehabilitates the dogs. I dont think CM tries to be cruel to dogs he is after all trying to help them and i think if he were cruel to them they wouldn't come up to him in his pack pretty sure they would try to avoid him or flee or even attack. If you watch his puppy special he shows you how to prevent bad behaviour in pups using positive reinforcement. I don't see how you would use positive reinforcement on a highly aggressive pit bull, he does what he does and it works.

[corvus]

Large packs of free-ranging domestic dogs do fairly poorly, they end up with an unstable hierarchy and they do damage to each other.

Unless there is a lot of affiliative behaviour in the pack. Packs with pack members that take time out to groom each other and touch in positive ways are more cohesive and don't fall apart the moment something upsetting happens in the environment. Packs where there is more posturing and aggressive behaviour between pack members fall apart at the drop of a hat. I take it you read the Bonanni paper that came out on it last year? It's very interesting.

Before I got my Lapphund I thought that aggression was all a dog really had at their disposal to control another dog's behaviour. Not a very compelling reason to use it ourselves, IMO. But watch a socially adept dog with a very high threshold and it turns out there are lots of non-aggressive means for a dog to handle poor behaviour from another dog. So, yeah, go and watch a group of dogs interacting. Watch carefully and I think those that say dogs correct each other physically all the time will be surprised. A lot goes on before it ever gets to aggression.