"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[Sayreovi]

Oh come on, its hardly a kick. He taps the dog with its foot, with less force than when you give a dog a good thump on the backside for being good. Its a tool to break the dog's fixation. The dogs get a shock, they are not hurt.

That's what I thought but maybe others are seeing something different

[Aidan3]

Call them what you want, the fact is they both work extremely well and don't require body language at all.

Tools are not methods.

Tools alone don't work very well.

There is good and bad in every training method but they all boil down to body language in the end.

How does a Manners Minder or anti-bark collar work then?

[Aidan3]

Call it a tap, or call it a kick. Look at the reaction of the dogs, that's what matters. Pretend it's a trainer you've never seen on TV.

Cesar does not have a monopoly on getting results with problem dogs. The dogs he works with are no different to the dogs the rest of us work with, and it's not a reaction I would seek or have ever found necessary.

[Aidan3]

one of my dogs loves to thumped in the side and on the bum as a reward........pretty sure I am hitting him harder than Cesar does.

Would you hit him in the inguinal region in the same way? Is it a good analogy?

[Erny]

Call it a tap, or call it a kick. Look at the reaction of the dogs, that's what matters.

Lol .... a sock fell off the line and fell on my dog's rump as he walked beneath it, a few days back. He tucked tail, cringed the haunches, shied away and then turned with very perplexed expression to see what evil beset him. I best not use this method if/when I need to distract him away from intent I do not want.

Edited March 19, 2011 by Erny

[Aidan3]

Call it a tap, or call it a kick. Look at the reaction of the dogs, that's what matters.

Lol .... a sock fell off the line and fell on my dog's rump as he walked beneath it, a few days back. He tucked tail, cringed the haunches, shied away and then turned with very perplexed expression to see what evil beset him.

Was he over-threshold in defence at the time (i.e already very fearful), and then did he re-direct his aggression towards you? Would you set him up so that happened?

[Dogsrawesome]

i love CM you have to realise even though some of you dont like his methods which by the way work. He has saved many dogs from death row to me he is a hero for many dogs. Id rather him do his little tap thing then let a dog chew my arm off

[Adnil444]

Even though I don't agree with all of CMs methods, he understands dogs and has got it right with exercise, discipline and then affection in that order. So many people humanise dogs. He also sets boundaries and rules and to be calm and assertive (that doesn't mean you have to be physical or violent). I have noticed in his later series, he is using food rewards more often now. As Dogperson has stated, he has saved many many dogs from death row, has helped many people with problem dogs (often CM is the last resort after having dog behaviourists try and correct a problem). His speciality are the red zone dogs and I don't think too many of us have any dogs in this category. He also stresses to people to research the breed before buying and will always match the dog with the people/owner, which unfortunately many owners do not do in the first place. Every dog trainer has some good points and we can all learn and take what we can and then work out what works best for your own situation.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think if I can't get my dog to do what I want when I want, it's more a reflection on my lack of skill, not my lack of punishing the dog for doing something I don't want.

With the right reward - you show the dog what you do want.

With punishment - you don't show the dog what you do want. It might figure out that you don't want something but what to do instead - that behaviour you might like less. Eg you stop a dog from digging holes in the garden, it switches to digging holes in the lawn... But you could have taught the dog to dig holes in the doggy sand pit instead.

I agree CM is fantastic at reading a dog, but I don't like many of his techniques he uses to train, or the end result in a lot of cases (ie one frightened dog - that he calls "submissive").

I started with a choke chain on my dog but have since learned a bunch of better techniques for training heel work and loose lead walking, so only use a flat collar or front attach harness now.

It's hard to use reward based training when you want to train your dog not to do something like running down the street. But what I really needed was stuff like a much better recall, and giving my dog adversives was going to get me the opposite ie encourage her to run away.

[Cosmolo]

I'm with Aidan on this one- i saw the same video the other day and thought about posting it here but i was accused of Caesar bashing last time i commented on his 'tap' so decided not to.

He does some good things. But there are many trainers who use punishment (and reinforcement) more appropriately IMO

[Jigsaw]

I'm with Aidan on this one- i saw the same video the other day and thought about posting it here but i was accused of Caesar bashing last time i commented on his 'tap' so decided not to.

He does some good things. But there are many trainers who use punishment (and reinforcement) more appropriately IMO

I've seen the video too. I didn't realise there were quite so many 'taps' until I viewed it! IMO the continuous use of punishment in training becomes a slippery slope - when do you stop saying "no" that's not right to the dog and start teaching "yes" that's right? CM consistently works with dogs that are over threshold but why let them get over threshold in the first place when you are training? If you are anxious, stressed and frightened what do you learn when someone 'taps' you?

[mita]

I've got no problem with using touch, body language & noises. Dogs communicate with each other that way. So do people. And it covers a range on intentions. Of course, there's an extreme associated with violence and desire to cause pain. That's crossed off my list. The other end is associated with relating & a desire to focus attention. It's that 'other end' which interests me, when 'working with' my dogs.

That's the only thing I've taken from watching Cesar Milan work with owners & their dogs. And I've added it on to all that I've learned about positive training methods like nothing in life is free....where good things follow desired behaviours. I've been pleasantly surprised with the results of applying some of those 'Cesar' strategies.

Dog behaviour, like human behaviour, is complex. Which is why a number of approaches can be drawn on, as the situation requires. For practitioners dealing with humans, that's called an 'eclectic approach'.

Edited March 19, 2011 by mita

[Max#1]

In my short experience with dogs and dog trainers I have noticed that some people, and I guess maybe CM is the same (though without seeing it all in person its hard to know) have a way of communicating with dogs that includes body language, that some people definitely don't. When you witness this, it truly is amazing. I have a friend who can shut my dog up with one look - but then the minute my friend calls him - my dog is waggily over to him like its his lucky day. I, unfortunately, don't have the same effect! Despite my best efforts!

[Aidan3]

Personally, I have made a value judgement on some of the things that CM does. Other people are of course, free to make their own judgement. All I ask is that people have an honest think about where they draw the line, for e.g. what constitutes "physical violence"? Or to look at it from a different angle, if a dog responded to an e-collar the same way that some of those dogs responded to the "tap", would you continue on, or would you back up a bit away from the situation and turn the stim down?

Things happen by accident (like being startled by something that we would consider to innocuous, like a sock), but that isn't training. What do we expect the dogs to learn from our conscious actions?

Do we believe everything we see on TV? It's worth thinking about. Are we being truly objective when we want a result? I could argue that it doesn't matter, if we are happy with the results, we are happy, but unfortunately I've seen too many (and been through too many) "cycles" of opinion (and disappointment) to have much faith in anything but objective measures in the long term. Particularly with dogs, who truly are adaptive and creative animals.

Why is body language important? Is there an innate understanding between dogs and humans? Maybe! Is it everything? I don't think so. Good subject matter to think about over a couple of wines though

[Nekhbet]

somtimes when you want to fix a do you have to let it exhibit the reaction so it can learn what to do to handle that level. It's not always a huggy-fluffy thing to deal with or see but its either that or send them on a one way trip to the vet.

As for kicking in the inguinal reagion ... come on. Using your foot to knock a dog so you can properly utilise your hands is not a mean thing. In fact some of my training clients use a similar thing but dont lift their foot, they bump with the leg. A sharp poke, prod, tap etc can help break a dogs concentration and stop that staring that so many dogs are intent on. Considering what most dogs can physically take at that level I think many people are talking poo when they say the pain of a kick is causing the dog to break concentration

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

I think people who like CM must be on huge personal powertrips and it makes them feel good about themselves to show their dog how much more powerful they are

Sure thing. Next time you're down my way I'll hand you a bag of treats and a leash attached to the flat collar of a couple of particular dogs. Go for your life. We'll be watching from the other side of a 6 foot chain mesh fence while you show trainers with years of experience in aggressive dogs how to deal with it in a hands off fashion. I take great offence that you think I'm on a power trip because my OH and I love Cesar Milan. A person that will take dogs that most others will write off as unfixable and put the effort in or hell, take them on for himself, retrain or provide a permanent home for is not a bad person.

So many people talk the talk against Cesar Milan, I am yet to see any of them take extreme dogs and show a better method that simply works hands off and can decrease the dogs reaction threshold in a reasonable time frame.

ALL dogs require rewards. All of them. Learning will not occur if there is no reward component, any trainer will tell you that. Punishments for some animals are necessary to tighten behaviour or ensure the dog becomes a safe individual in society.

[Dog_Horse_Girl]

When does Cesar use physical violence? When he taps the dog?

I don't think we should gloss over the fact that he does use physical violence, there was a video going around recently (briefly) of all the times he has kicked a dog in the show. I think this is something we should definitely not emulate. Of course, his more zealous fans will come in here and tell me that "it's only a tap", but no matter how gentle it is, the dog's responses tell the story.

Oh come on, its hardly a kick. He taps the dog with its foot, with less force than when you give a dog a good thump on the backside for being good. Its a tool to break the dog's fixation. The dogs get a shock, they are not hurt.

Oh come on, its hardly a kick. He taps the dog with its foot, with less force than when you give a dog a good thump on the backside for being good. Its a tool to break the dog's fixation. The dogs get a shock, they are not hurt.

I agree. It is a tap, and there is nothing in that whole stupid video doing the rounds that shows me a dog who looks/acts like it's been hurt. If I had the choice between a tap on the butt or the green dream (which is the other alternative for some of the dogs shown on his program) I know which one I'd be asking for!

I think the "dancing" description is a great one. His body language is amazing.

I think Cesar Millan's methods not only work effectively, but they show ordinary people how easy it can be to have control over their difficult dogs, in some cases dogs that were heading for the Green Dream. Dogs are pack animals. Dogs are social animals. They learn, from a very early age, by their mother's pushing and dragging them, nipping and herding them. What Cesar does mimics those actions. There's something truly beautiful about the way he interacts with dogs. And what he does WORKS.

Try positive reinforcement with my problem-child Ruby. Sure, it works for some things - but not others. When she's in the mood for it, she can lunge at one of the others with surprising swiftness and accuracy. What stops her is my intervention. A hand here or a foot there to block her, combined with a loud noise to take her focus off her target and back to me. She gets it. And it hasn't ruined her in any way. She still loves and trusts me. Completely. But she knows that I make the rules and she has to live within the boundaries I set and maintain for her. :D

[Aidan3]

In fact some of my training clients use a similar thing but dont lift their foot, they bump with the leg. A sharp poke, prod, tap etc can help break a dogs concentration and stop that staring that so many dogs are intent on.

I have no problem with any of that. I'm sure it doesn't produce redirected aggression either, and from your other posts, I'm certain it's not an over-used tool in your tool-box.

[Nekhbet]

I have no problem with any of that. I'm sure it doesn't produce redirected aggression either, and from your other posts, I'm certain it's not an over-used tool in your tool-box.

... and mostly because teaching a lot of people that standing on one leg to lift the other and tap the dog while holding the leash, watching the dog and having a reward ready takes longer then anything else

[corvus]

So many people talk the talk against Cesar Milan, I am yet to see any of them take extreme dogs and show a better method that simply works hands off and can decrease the dogs reaction threshold in a reasonable time frame.

Look up Dr Sophia Yin. She has some nice demonstrative videos around. Not "extreme" dogs, but definitely dogs with reactions similar to those of many dogs I've seen on The Dog Whisperer.

I'm very much with Aidan. I just would like people to think hard about what they are doing and what they want. Contrary to what some people on this forum seem to think, I will absolutely use punishments and escape training where it is suitable. But you can bet I think very carefully whether it's suitable or not and plan it carefully as well. I used to punish whatever I didn't like, but now I find if I take a moment to think about it in terms of whether I want to suppress the behaviour and what I want my dog to be doing instead, I find I rarely do want to suppress it. I think we should have some idea how we expect the training to go so we can decide whether it's as effective as we expect it to be. Personally, I think it helps me be more objective, and I really value objectivity in my training.

[BMAK]

CM get's results at the end of the day, there is no faking cases with his "red level" dog aggressive dogs being in his pack acting friendly..

The man knows his sh.t, he can read the dogs, the behaviour and there needs.

yes i also would love to see someone with a bag of freshly cooked chicken and my dog on the end of the leash, go for your life as you won't get anywhere with his aggression.

Teaching him exercises, like sit, in a area with no dogs yes!

motivation training works perfectly, add a dog, the chicken is nothing more then a bade of glass on his nose, if the dog is at a level of intensity, food is not going to snap him out of it it has to be an action.

All dog are individuals, what works for some, may not work for others i am open to that totally.

if a dog doesn't want to do a exercise for food even if he knows it, how else are you mean't to get him to do the behaviour you asked ?

ask the stubbon one kindly ?

reminds me of parents and their kids, common sense.