"whispering" . . .or "dancing"?

[sandgrubber]

I've been reading an interesting essay called "What the dog saw" by Malcolm Gladwell (2009 . .. printed in a book by the same name). It attempts to look at Cesar Milan from a dog's perspective. The author consults with, among others, a well known dance movement psychotherapist. Interesting essay, which broadly concludes that CM is a genius at use of body language to communicate with dogs . . . and that what he does is a highly skilled dance that communicates powerfully to the dog.

Unfortunate consequence of this is that us people with only normal dance abilites are going to have a hard time repeating a CM performance.

Here's a little extract . . . from a section where the author and dance therapist review an episode where CM calms a highly HA dog

"Do you see how rythmic it is?" Tortora said. "He [CM] pulls. He waits. He pulls. He waits. The phrasing is so lovely. It's predictable. To a dog that is all over the place, he's bringing a rythm. But it isn't a panicked rythm. It has a moderate tempo to it. There was room to wander. And it's not attack, attack. It wasn't long sustained. It was quick and light. I would bet that with dogs like this, where people are so afraid of them being aggressive and so defensive around them, there is a lot of aggressive strength directed at them. There is no aggression here. He's using strength without it being aggressive."

You can find the essay at Gladwell's website:

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.html

Edited March 19, 2011 by sandgrubber

[Aidan3]

I believe Gladwell also compares him to an athletic soccer player in that piece, which seems appropriate too.

[Kirty]

Very interesting.

[fuzzy82]

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

I think people who like CM must be on huge personal powertrips and it makes them feel good about themselves to show their dog how much more powerful they are.

[pixie_meg]

Fuzzy, you obviously haven't had to deal with a dog who doesn't respond to positive reinforcement. I have. And i certainly am not after a powertrip as you put it.

Its a very narrow minded view that positive reward based training works on every dog. I use Cesars methods and i don't hurt my dog.

[Crisovar]

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

I think people who like CM must be on huge personal powertrips and it makes them feel good about themselves to show their dog how much more powerful they are.

Whatever floats your boat. Personally I find it best to use whatever works the best for each case and not be closed minded.

I have had dogs that didn't respond terribly well to purely positive methods. Guess I am on a power trick.

Evil

[Kirty]

CM does some great things. Some dogs do not respond well to positive reinforcement. One of my dogs would walk all over you if you only ever gave him praise and rewards. He is a turd. Some dogs are turds. Some dogs will try every trick in the book to get one over on you. Do you think mother wolves say to their ratty babies 'hunny, play with this stick instead of biting my tail'. No, they give them a nip! Dogs can handle a bit of negative reinforcement.

[Aidan3]

Positive reinforcement training does work on every dog, it just not always the most practical solution. I think we can move past the extremes.

[jesomil]

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

Because sometimes you cant. Closed mindedness is evil...

[Kirty]

If anyone would like to adopt Champa and use only rewards, be my guest. Oh, and I don't accept returns...

Edited March 19, 2011 by Kirty

[sandgrubber]

Oh dear. The old tired battle about positive reinforcement again.

Even if you think some of the things CM does are evil (which I don't) you gotta hand it to the guy is brilliant in communicating with dogs.

The point of the post was to point out that his special ability was based on highly organised body movement communicates well with dogs. Aidan2 is correct . . . Gladwell also compares CM to a soccer player.

I'm not a trainer . . . but found the article fascinating because it gives a much broader, wholistic view on how dogs pick up on humans body language . . . and what sorts of body language are likely to be effective in calming dogs and gaining their respect.

If you want to read the article, you can find it on Gladwell's website

http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_05_22_a_dog.html

Edited March 19, 2011 by sandgrubber

[aussielover]

If anyone would like to adopt Champa and use only rewards, be my guest. Oh, and I don't except returns...

but he looks so innocent....

[Sayreovi]

CM is evil, calling it whispering or dancing doesn't change that, it just makes a fool of whoever wrote it. Why would you choose to use physical violence against your dog when you can achieve the same results (AND have the dog do it all willingly and happily) with reward based training?

I think people who like CM must be on huge personal powertrips and it makes them feel good about themselves to show their dog how much more powerful they are.

Mmmm I use reward based training for my dogs but I am not small minded enough to know that it would work for all dogs.

When does Cesar use physical violence? When he taps the dog?

I don't consider myself on a "huge personal powertrip" because I admire the changes he makes in these previously uncontrollable dogs. He shows the owners how to actually control their dog.....and lets be honest some of those dogs were previously so dangerous that the green dream seemed like an inevitability.

[dancinbcs]

There is good and bad in every training method but they all boil down to body language in the end. Watch any successful trainer without listening to what they are saying and you will see what the dog sees and responds to. No amount of rewards or commands will work if you don't get the body language right. The more dogs you raise, the easier it gets because you tend to adopt certain body languge to communicate with the dogs without even thinking about it any more.

[Aidan3]

When does Cesar use physical violence? When he taps the dog?

I don't think we should gloss over the fact that he does use physical violence, there was a video going around recently (briefly) of all the times he has kicked a dog in the show. I think this is something we should definitely not emulate. Of course, his more zealous fans will come in here and tell me that "it's only a tap", but no matter how gentle it is, the dog's responses tell the story.

[Aidan3]

There is good and bad in every training method but they all boil down to body language in the end.

How does a Manners Minder or anti-bark collar work then?

[sandgrubber]

Tools are not methods.

Tools alone don't work very well.

There is good and bad in every training method but they all boil down to body language in the end.

How does a Manners Minder or anti-bark collar work then?

[Sayreovi]

When does Cesar use physical violence? When he taps the dog?

I don't think we should gloss over the fact that he does use physical violence, there was a video going around recently (briefly) of all the times he has kicked a dog in the show. I think this is something we should definitely not emulate. Of course, his more zealous fans will come in here and tell me that "it's only a tap", but no matter how gentle it is, the dog's responses tell the story.

Ohh the ones where he kicks around the back of him and gets the dog on it's arse? I've only noticed him doing those when the dog is so focused on something else and wants to do an immediate correction without the dog knowing where it's coming from or are you talking about something else?

I was talking about the hand taps he does.....neither of those isn't physical violence IMO, one of my dogs loves to thumped in the side and on the bum as a reward........pretty sure I am hitting him harder than Cesar does.

Edited March 19, 2011 by tollersowned

[Kirty]

Oh come on, its hardly a kick. He taps the dog with its foot, with less force than when you give a dog a good thump on the backside for being good. Its a tool to break the dog's fixation. The dogs get a shock, they are not hurt.

[The Ark]

Oh come on, its hardly a kick. He taps the dog with its foot, with less force than when you give a dog a good thump on the backside for being good. Its a tool to break the dog's fixation. The dogs get a shock, they are not hurt.

I agree. It is a tap, and there is nothing in that whole stupid video doing the rounds that shows me a dog who looks/acts like it's been hurt. If I had the choice between a tap on the butt or the green dream (which is the other alternative for some of the dogs shown on his program) I know which one I'd be asking for!

I think the "dancing" description is a great one. His body language is amazing.