Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[megan_]

One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

What makes you think Australian poodle owners want a dog different to poodles in other parts of the world?

I love my poodles for their playfulness, their love of life and their gaiety. If I didnt' want a happy outgoing dog I'd own another breed.

They're not nut cases, they have an off switch and they don't bounce off the walls.

But that is the point - they suit you (and me) but that temp doesn't suit a lot of people. Many families just want a dog who is happy to hang out with them. A dog that doesn't constantly think and require you to think in order to meet its needs. Personally, I'd be bored out of my mind with such a laid back dog, but that's just me.

This thread has gone way OT, it was originally about a very small group of labx poodle breeders who are trying to get their breed recognised. Not the mass produced gen 1 oodles. But for some reason, people can't see past that.

And now I'll go OT, sorry: I own a gen 1 oodle. Disclaimer: I don't promote DD's and would never get another one (due to ethical reasons). My next dog will be a PB standard schnauzer (if I can find a breeder who will sell me one. I work f/t which seems to rule me out automatically for a lot of breeders, never mind the fact that my dogs do agility twice a week, tricks every day, get walked 2 -3 times a day....but now I'm going OT....).

I did have a giggle at all the "those oodles are crazy/I've never met a well behaved one" comments. I went to the Uta Bindel seminar on the weekend. I'll eat my laptop if anyone who saw my boy in action thought he was stupid, crazy etc. Even Uta commented to me what a smart, focused, good little worker he was.

[Steve]

I do have my own forum where all of this can be discussed its is called the MDBA forum [close enough] and that doesnt mean I cant enter and be involved with a controversial issue here or on any other forum and give my opinion does it? Im not breaching forum rules - Im not promoting cross breeding or designer dogs in fact Im very much against them.

I am also saying that a lab x poodle is a mutt however, that seems to have gone over your head. No where in this thread have I said the ANKC is an outdated organisation,nor have I advocated for a change in breed standards or encouraged anyone to begin a new breed and Im happy to converse with people who have a different opinion to me because Im happy to stand corrected if Im proven wrong. You can still support the ANKC and look reasonably at the situation without having to shut down - but worse being on the attack to shut anyone else down who sees it a little differently.

There's nothing new in what the breeders who are working toward breed development are doing than anything thats been done for hundreds of years - its not anti ANKC or anti purebred. If and when they have fit the criteria they may even apply to be recognised by the ANKC and be seen to be breeding an ANKC recognised breed.

But are we to be banned from speaking of any new breed in development ? If so for how long ? Do we have to wait until they are 15 years down the track and accepted as an ANKC breed before its O.K. to talk about it here?

Steve I don't care what you choose to discuss on Dogzonline and I have nothing against the development of new breeds providing proper procedures are followed, what I object to are the constant derogatory comments about the ANKC. You speak in a previous post about 'playing the man', but I notice that you and a few others don't miss an opportunity to (might as well stick with the football analogies) 'put the boot in' to the ANKC.

I had nothing against the MDBA until you made a decision to alter breed standards on the say so of just five people involved with each breed. I just couldn't believe that you would have the presumption to do such a thing, ok you've been involved with dogs for a long time, but so have I, maybe even longer than you, and I certainly wouldn't make such a suggestion.

Personally I don't see the point of the MDBA, sure you can set yourself up as some elite registry, but unless you physically check everyone who applies to join you are going have bad breeders infiltrate your organisation simply because they can then advertise themselves as members and perhaps increase their chances of selling puppies. You talk about conducting 'shows' which will be nothing like ANKC shows and various other events, but you still haven't given any indication as to what these 'shows' and other events will entail. Your pedigrees will never be accepted by any of the major kennel clubs around the world (I don't count the UKC and the Continental Kennel Club and all the other organisations in the U.S. who will register just about anything as major kennel clubs), so apart from being able to say that "I'm a member of the MDBA which automatically makes me squeaky clean and 100% ethical" and having the facility to include health testing results on pedigrees you have nothing to offer to someone like me. That's not to say that lots of people don't think exactly the opposite and think that the MDBA has plenty to offer, that's their prerogative, I've nothing against that either.

I have absolutely nothing against you Steve, you seem like a very nice person and you have a comprehensive knowledge of all things dog even if I don't always agree with everything you say. However even though I'm sure that you have the best interests of dogs at heart, you can't deny that the MDBA is also about making a profit, and I'm sure that enrolling dogs in a new registry is far more profitable than enrolling new members and attempting to sell various dog related courses. I am not trying to be offensive here, I'm simply stating a fact, you and your co-director have spent a lot of money getting the MDBA up and running and obviously you are wanting to get that money back and make enough to money out of it on an ongoing basis to make a living, that's only sensible.

Anyway these are my thoughts on the subject, many won't agree with me and that's fine. I will stand behind the ANKC as I think they are the best bet for purebred dogs and others will join the MDBA and the dog world will become even more divided than it is now. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Miranda when ever if ever there is one single solitary word changed in any breed standard I will consider you have a legitimate argument.

The opportunity for me to explain what we will do any futher here on this fiorum has been taken from me.If I had the opportunity to be able to go into detail perhaps you would see your impressions are way off base and if you would like me to inform you privately Im happy to do so. Each time I see these kind of accusations made about me Im amazed that anyone could have read my posts all these years and believe I would be a party to any of the crap.

To register puppies on our registry is free - we only charge for certificate issues if they are needed so jibes about how the registry was started to make money and not because we felt it was the best thing for the purebred dog world is crap. Every single one of our breeder members are ANKC members and there has been no desire on our part or there's for them not to remain registered breeders with the ANKC. We hoped we could work with them and provide a supplimentary service and thank God some peopel have listened and gotten that.

Your assumptions on what its all about are way off track.

[poodlefan]

One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

What makes you think Australian poodle owners want a dog different to poodles in other parts of the world?

I love my poodles for their playfulness, their love of life and their gaiety. If I didnt' want a happy outgoing dog I'd own another breed.

They're not nut cases, they have an off switch and they don't bounce off the walls.

But that is the point - they suit you (and me) but that temp doesn't suit a lot of people. Many families just want a dog who is happy to hang out with them. A dog that doesn't constantly think and require you to think in order to meet its needs. Personally, I'd be bored out of my mind with such a laid back dog, but that's just me.

Breeds that fit more people's requirements exist. I don't hold with making all breeds vanilla flavoured animals that anyone can own.

However, a well bred poodle, given decent exercise and training will make a great dog for a lot of families. Let it have a walk once a day, a game of fetch with the kids and watch telly and sleep with the family and most poodles will be as happy as pigs in mud. If families don't want a dog that requires companionship, attention and exercise they they should probably not own one at all.

How crossing poodles with a dog meant to work hard in the field all day, to look for human guidance and attention and to be trained to a high level somehow produces a dog that any idiot can own beats me.

I don't think we should be dumming down breeds to make them easier to own. I think we should be educating people on how to select and raise a dog that will meet what they want in a pet.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[WoofnHoof]

One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

What makes you think Australian poodle owners want a dog different to poodles in other parts of the world?

I love my poodles for their playfulness, their love of life and their gaiety. If I didnt' want a happy outgoing dog I'd own another breed.

They're not nut cases, they have an off switch and they don't bounce off the walls.

The research (which I cannot find atm to save my life it has been discussed here previously though) makes me think that Australian dog owners want a dog like a poodle but not the same as a poodle, the DD craze is not just in Australia it's happened in other countries as well, the evidence is overwhelming that there is either no breed suitable or not enough of them to fulfil the demand.

Which again brings us back to the availability of animals which fit the oft-stated criteria of non-shedding. medium size laid back temperaments. We have had a number of alternative breeds suggested which many people have pointed out also have traits that aren't necessarily suited for first time dog owners, not to mention the fact that there are nowhere near enough to meet demand.

You are a dog trainer, of course you find the poodle temperament no problem but would you recommend them for everyone that wants a non shedding breed?

ETA I have a breed that sheds like crazy, it doesn't worry me but it worries a hell of a lot of other people, now I could educate all those people that a bit of dog hair is not the end of the world and that there are far more important things to worry about than dog hair and tell them how to manage it but wouldn't it be better just to recommend them a non-shedding or low shedding breed? Temperament should be looked at the same way, not all temperaments will suit most people I don't think of it as 'dumbing down' at all and I think that labrador owners would be insulted by that since it's the lab temp that is most desired, it is a simply a desirable trait like any other and if current breeds cannot meet those desired traits sooner or later someone will develop a breed that will.

Edited March 22, 2011 by WoofnHoof

[Miranda]

Who is asking you to join another organisation ? Who is asking you to turn against the ANKC ? The reference to the MDBA wasnt about superiority it was explaining that being able to discuss controversial issues has led to open discussion and education.It was about the fact that back in 2001 when some people here were discussing a new group - not the MDBA at that time that some people came in and went nuts - tried to have it shut up and some even had threats made against them. The thread on the mini dals was pretty hot too. We were able to continue with the discussion. How can anyone get behind the ANKC and initiate change when they wont even speak about what is going on in the real world and what people may be doing with new breed development? But this isnt about the ANKC changing anyway - they have a perfectly good system in place where people can work for 15 years on developing a breed and then go to them and apply for breed recognition - I dont want to see that changed. I just want to be able to talk about it without being censored. For the record there are no breeders of labradoodles in the MDBA and it is very unlikely there ever will be.

Where did I say that I was being asked to join another organisation and turn against the ANKC? I didn't.

I've been in dogs a very long time and I guess you could say that I know the dog world inside out, but there are plenty of people on this forum who are new to dogs, know very little and are easily influenced, especially by someone like you who obviously has vast experience and who writes very informative and authoritative posts, therefore anything you post is going to be be taken as gospel by many people who visit this forum. You and a number of others constantly denigrate the ANKC and give the impression that it's an obsolete organisation good for nothing but registering dogs and unfortunately many new members are simply accepting these comments. This is what I object to, I don't agree with the MDBA, but you don't see me on here running it down or casting aspersions on its integrity, in fact I usually make an effort to stay out of any discussions involving the MDBA (but not today).

I don't care how you promote the MDBA, but I do object to you constantly knocking the ANKC and sometimes ANKC registered breeders as a way to demonstrate the superiority of the your new organisation and its members and I must admit that I'm surprised that someone like you, a director of a supposedly elite organisation, considers it perfectly acceptable to do so.

Edited to add that this thread has gone way off topic, my apologies to the OP, I won't be posting again in this thread.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Miranda

[Sheridan]

The research (which I cannot find atm to save my life it has been discussed here previously though) makes me think that Australian dog owners want a dog like a poodle but not the same as a poodle, the DD craze is not just in Australia it's happened in other countries as well, the evidence is overwhelming that there is either no breed suitable or not enough of them to fulfil the demand.

Which again brings us back to the availability of animals which fit the oft-stated criteria of non-shedding. medium size laid back temperaments. We have had a number of alternative breeds suggested which many people have pointed out also have traits that aren't necessarily suited for first time dog owners, not to mention the fact that there are nowhere near enough to meet demand.

You are a dog trainer, of course you find the poodle temperament no problem but would you recommend them for everyone that wants a non shedding breed?

ETA I have a breed that sheds like crazy, it doesn't worry me but it worries a hell of a lot of other people, now I could educate all those people that a bit of dog hair is not the end of the world and that there are far more important things to worry about than dog hair and tell them how to manage it but wouldn't it be better just to recommend them a non-shedding or low shedding breed?

When recommending breeds to someone who wants one that doesn't shed, people don't tend to go beyond listing non-shedding breeds. I'm actually surprised that some people (well, other than me) have actually pointed out this time that some of them aren't suited to first-time owners.

[poodlefan]

You are a dog trainer, of course you find the poodle temperament no problem but would you recommend them for everyone that wants a non shedding breed?

Of course not. There's more to the dog than its coat.

However, the myth that ordinary poodles are "challenging" dogs to live with is just that - a myth. Treat them like dogs, not fashion accessories, and they make great pets.

They need exercise, they need stimulation, they need company and they need boundaries. They come in three sizes (with different temperaments) and you can have them styled anyway you like from a utility clip to full on frou frou.

They've performed a range of roles over the years from water retriever, to army mascots, drug detection dogs and guide dogs. It's a versatile dog that can be a great family pet. An all poodle team successfully completed the Iditerod a number of times.

Best comment I've had on my dogs.. "I didnt know poodles could run". Yes, folks they do get off their velvet cushions every now and again.

I am happy to recommend them for families who are happy to share their lives with a dog. If they want an animated garden statue, I don't.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

Oops, double post.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[SnoPaws]

If families don't want a dog that requires companionship, attention and exercise they they should probably not own one at all.

;)

Edited March 22, 2011 by SnoPaws

[WoofnHoof]

You are a dog trainer, of course you find the poodle temperament no problem but would you recommend them for everyone that wants a non shedding breed?

Of course not. There's more to the dog than its coat.

However, the myth that ordinary poodles are "challenging" dogs to live with is just that - a myth. Treat them like dogs, not fashion accessories, and they make great pets.

They need exercise, they need stimulation, they need company and they need boundaries. They come in three sizes (with different temperaments) and you can have them styled anyway you like from a utility clip to full on frou frou.

They've performed a range of roles over the years from water retriever, to army mascots, drug detection dogs and guide dogs. It's a versatile dog that can be a great family pet.

Best comment I've had on my dogs.. "I didnt know poodles could run". Yes, folks they do get off their velvet cushions every now and again.

I am happy to recommend them for families who are happy to share their lives with a dog. If they want an animated garden statue, I don't.

Again the labrador is one of the most popular breeds in the country largely due to it's laid back nature (once it's out of puppy stage that is!) and to suggest that just because the majority of the public would like this temperament type because they want 'animated garden statues' is again a bit insulting to people who own and love labs.

I accept people who aren't interested in dogs that shed their own body weight in hair, I don't denigrate them (or their dogs) or accuse them of being lazy or incompetent dog owners.

I agree that a lot of the issues with the lack of popularity of poodles is due to perception rather than traits within the dog but when it comes to temperament there is a big difference between a dog that is happy with a walk once or twice a week and a dog that starts climbing the walls if it hasn't had enough mental stimulation, ultimately it's better for the dog that the temperament suits what the owner can handle, how many times have we denigrated people for buying a dog on looks alone and not considering the temperament which may not be compatible with their lifestyle? You can educate people till you're blue in the face but if the breed temperament doesn't suit the owner or their lifestyle then it's ultimately the dog who will suffer.

[Steve]

Who is asking you to join another organisation ? Who is asking you to turn against the ANKC ? The reference to the MDBA wasnt about superiority it was explaining that being able to discuss controversial issues has led to open discussion and education.It was about the fact that back in 2001 when some people here were discussing a new group - not the MDBA at that time that some people came in and went nuts - tried to have it shut up and some even had threats made against them. The thread on the mini dals was pretty hot too. We were able to continue with the discussion. How can anyone get behind the ANKC and initiate change when they wont even speak about what is going on in the real world and what people may be doing with new breed development? But this isnt about the ANKC changing anyway - they have a perfectly good system in place where people can work for 15 years on developing a breed and then go to them and apply for breed recognition - I dont want to see that changed. I just want to be able to talk about it without being censored. For the record there are no breeders of labradoodles in the MDBA and it is very unlikely there ever will be.

Where did I say that I was being asked to join another organisation and turn against the ANKC? I didn't.

I've been in dogs a very long time and I guess you could say that I know the dog world inside out, but there are plenty of people on this forum who are new to dogs, know very little and are easily influenced, especially by someone like you who obviously has vast experience and who writes very informative and authoritative posts, therefore anything you post is going to be be taken as gospel by many people who visit this forum. You and a number of others constantly denigrate the ANKC and give the impression that it's an obsolete organisation good for nothing but registering dogs and unfortunately many new members are simply accepting these comments. This is what I object to, I don't agree with the MDBA, but you don't see me on here running it down or casting aspersions on its integrity, in fact I usually make an effort to stay out of any discussions involving the MDBA (but not today).

I don't care how you promote the MDBA, but I do object to you constantly knocking the ANKC and sometimes ANKC registered breeders as a way to demonstrate the superiority of the your new organisation and its members and I must admit that I'm surprised that someone like you, a director of a supposedly elite organisation, considers it perfectly acceptable to do so.

Edited to add that this thread has gone way off topic, my apologies to the OP, I won't be posting again in this thread.

I will also bow out of this topic, however I still say that censoring what can be spoken of is not condusive to informed opinions which is very clearly demonstrated here.

[Kavik]

Many of the Labradors I have met are anything but 'laid back'!

[poodlefan]

If families don't want a dog that requires companionship, attention and exercise they they should probably not own one at all.

;) :D

If families want a dog that is hypoallergenic and non shedding perhaps they should be getting a goldfish instead

Don't start me on goldfish. Seeing a fish that can live for over 20 years and that requires a MINIMUM of 40L of water for decent life living how a lot of folk keep them breaks my heart. :D

I'll tell you how to make a poodle "laid back". Fatten it to the point of obesity and don't bother to give it any meaningful kind of stimulation. That technique has worked on many breeds for years.

[WoofnHoof]

Many of the Labradors I have met are anything but 'laid back'!

I've met some full on ones too but the vast majority are very cruisy characters and laid back is a term most often used to describe them Either way there is something about them that appeals to a signficant portion of the dog owning public, remember that DOL is not representative of the majority of dog owners in this country.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Many of the Labradors I have met are anything but 'laid back'!

I owned 2 labs and they were not laid back at all. In fact they were very athletic and driven and a sight to behold when they dived into water to do their job

[kiesha09]

It might be distressing to poodle purists that their breed is being used in the development of this new breed, but the fact is that the niche exists,

But just what niche is that? For a dog which is perceived to be non-shedding and isn't, calm and intelligent and isn't, healthier than either parent breed and isn't?

If you want a ''non shedding'' breed which is larger than a Bichon but not a Standard Poodle then what's wrong with a Portuguese Water Dog, Standard or Giant Schnauzer, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Kerry Blue Terrier, Lagotto, the list is pretty extensive.

What is wrong with them is the general public doesn't know about them!

Appologies if this is going OT but I don't know much about many of these dogs mentioned either other than most are non-shedding. What are their tempraments like? Would they be a match to people who are looking for a labradoodle (I know that labradoodles don't exactly have a standard temperament but I guess I am trying to say are they biddable, happy go lucky family dog similar to a labrador).

*falls off chair laughing at the thought of a 'biddable' wheaten and kerry blue*

So what do you call a miniature poodle if not a medium sized non shedding dog of even temperament.

Maybe even temp is the wrong word, more like laid back temp? Labradors are one of the most popular breeds in this country, the main reason is their easygoing temperament most people would agree that the temperament of the lab and the temperament of the poodle are poles apart, poodles are high energy dogs. I also wouldn't call a miniature poodle a medium sized dog I would call it a small dog and a lot of people don't want small dogs for various reasons.

I agree with Clyde that the main reason poodles aren't as popular as their many positive traits would suggest is largely due to negative perceptions of the breed, this then becomes a PR issue.

One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

I think that people simply want a dog with the personality of a labrador (purely because so many percieve them as the perfect family dog, little do they do that takes alot of training, exercise and effort on their behalf) but doesn't moult like one. THey think that the perfect solution is to cross it with a poodle and walah they get a non moulting labrador that looks cutesy like a teddy bear but not pouffy like a poodle (not exactly sure of the difference but hey thats what labradoodle owners always tell me).

So really I don't think there is any point in suggesting breeds that just don't moult like wheatens and kerry blues have been suggested. They obviously don't fit the criteria of what people are looking for in a labradoodle so are not a suitable alternative.

When I was an instructing at the local dog obedience school many oodles came through our classes. Lots (not all by any means though) of these dogs were inside dogs and I can assure you there is no way they would have been if they moulted like a lab. The one good thing about them was that they did get to share time with their families because they didn't moult.

Yes I think there are probably purebreed alternatives but I think it's important that when we're educating people about these alternatives we think about what are the RIGHT alternatives. If a person wanting a labradoodle ended up getting a wheaten or kerry blue these dogs would probably end up in the pound as it wasn't what they're looking for at all.

[poodlefan]

Many of the Labradors I have met are anything but 'laid back'!

I owned 2 labs and they were not laid back at all. In fact they were very athletic and driven and a sight to behold when they dived into water to do their job

A significant proportion of Labs (and other dogs) in this country are obese.

Any obese dog is likely to be "laid back". If you can hardly move, its pretty much a given. ;)

[OSoSwift]

Personally I think a Labrador puppy with a young family is a potential recipe for disaster and they only grow up when they are past middle age - unless of course they are fat and can't be botehred moving!

I have had chats with many people with young families who were interested in LAbradors who have changed their mind whe they realise they are a working dog and the pups and adolescents can be bloody full on. The only way to quieten them down half the time is to make them obese, which unfortunately does happen.

Now I know there are some very Laid back Labs that are not obese so nobody needs to jump down my thorat, but to me they are certainly not the majority.

I think many people buy crossbreeds because they don't have to answer questions they don't want to and they are easy to find and get. Oh I want a pup, bang you have it in under a week!

Part of that problem is that purebred breeds are given such a hard time by many areas that they have cut down the litters they have bred and it is now hard quite often to find a purebred rego'd dog within a less than 18 month period- depending on breed of course.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Many of the Labradors I have met are anything but 'laid back'!

I owned 2 labs and they were not laid back at all. In fact they were very athletic and driven and a sight to behold when they dived into water to do their job

A significant proportion of Labs (and other dogs) in this country are obese.

Any obese dog is likely to be "laid back". If you can hardly move, its pretty much a given. ;)

For sure. Labs that are too fat do nothing much at all.

I was always told that my labs were skinny and they were not and they could run and jump and swim all without breaking a sweat.

A Lab that is fit is a joy...and more work :D

[kiesha09]

I think many people buy crossbreeds because they don't have to answer questions they don't want to and they are easy to find and get. Oh I want a pup, bang you have it in under a week!

The majority of people I know who don't have purebreed dogs wouldn't even know that they had to answer questions to a breeder. In fact the majority of the dog owning public would have no idea about registered purebreed dogs or anything about registered breeders. They don't know a thing about byb'ers either. I know this because I was one of these people about 3 or 4 years ago before I got into dog training and the majority of my friends/family are like this now. I try to educate them but really they don't even care and can't understand why I do either.

Totally agree with your comment of 'Oh I want a pub, bang you have it in under a week!' That is exactly what they want. How do you change this, particularly in society as it is now?