Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[Everythings Shiny]

Any of these designer breeds are not true breeds, they are crosses.

Also - many many of these dogs have come through my work - majority of them are idiots - but that may be because the owners haven't trained them at all.

Edited March 18, 2011 by Everythings Shiny

[Linda K]

not a pedigree, a crossbreed with a fancy name to make it more appealing (like a "liger"), having sat at Altona beach last week and watched the passing parade of crossbreed go past (including 3 completely different looking lab x poodles, plus one that looked like a irish wolfhound x newfoundland), and a very fat cocker x poodle, it never ceases to amze me what people will throw together, and what others will buy)

[SpotTheDog]

For the lab cross poodle to be a purebred would have to do a job that niether the purebred lab or purebred poodle can do thats the way i see it.

The origin of the breed did have that in mind - the two breeds were crossed by Wally Conran for a blind woman who lived in Hawaii and wanted a guide dog, but had a husband who was allergic to dogs. Conran's aim was to breed a dog with the size and temprament of a labrador but with the hypoallergenic and non-coat-shedding aspects of a poodle - so all the benefit of a guide dog, but without the sneezes.

By definition that would be a dog suitable for a job that neither the purebred lab or purebred poodle would be suitable for.

However, BYBs and puppy factories latched onto the concept of the 'large non-shed family dog' and, in spite of the fact that at least half the pups won't be non-shed, the breed took off like a rocketship.

But look at them - labradors: even-tempered but potentially single-minded dogs who can show great loyalty to one person but also appear completely oblivious to everyone and anyone as they go about their business during the day, and poodles - highly intelligent dogs who can be like an emotional sponge for negative atmosphere in a household and can also be highly strung and anxious.

Get the right cross, you have an even-tempered, highly biddable, medium-large, loyal, highly-trainable non-shedding hypoallergenic dog. Hooray!

Get the wrong cross, and you get a medium-large, single-minded, oblivious, intelligent to the point of mischief, anxious, highly strung dog that sheds all over the house and costs a fortune to groom.

Both of the people I know in my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances who own labradoodles - well they have the second version.

[silentchild]

Speaking of Service Dogs - has anyone been watching Extraordinary Dogs? In Canada, the MIRA Foundation have been cross-breeding a new type of service dog called the Labernese (Labrador x Bernese Mountain Dog) to work with autistic children. I find that name quite weird, although apparently the results of the canine therapy have been very good with children with autism.

Sorry to contribute to the OT discussion, but does anyone remember why they decided to cross the "Lebarnese" on Extraordinary Dogs? Couldn't a purebred labrador or Bernese mountain dog do the job the Lebarnese is doing?

This is what the organisation says about the cross (from their website):

http://www.mira.ca/en/our-dogs/8/the-labernese_37.html

Hmm, that really didn't explain much, more or less all it said was the Labrador was unfaithful and the Bernese was faithful..... what????

One lives unconditionally happy, the other is racked with doubt. The unfaithfulness of the Labrador is in stark contrast with the faithfulness of the shepherd, in the same way the straight-forwardness and stiffness of the latter contrast with the sinuous flexibility of his opposite.

I don't think either the lab or Bernese lives its life racked with doubt?? What does that even have to do with disabled people? And I always thought of Labs to be fairly loyal dogs. I don't even understand what this is trying to say, it's barely a concise, straightforward reason as to why they should be cross-bred - seems to me more like a play on words trying to articulately dance around the subject matter.

[mumtoshelley]

For the lab cross poodle to be a purebred would have to do a job that niether the purebred lab or purebred poodle can do thats the way i see it.

The origin of the breed did have that in mind - the two breeds were crossed by Wally Conran for a blind woman who lived in Hawaii and wanted a guide dog, but had a husband who was allergic to dogs. Conran's aim was to breed a dog with the size and temprament of a labrador but with the hypoallergenic and non-coat-shedding aspects of a poodle - so all the benefit of a guide dog, but without the sneezes.

By definition that would be a dog suitable for a job that neither the purebred lab or purebred poodle would be suitable for.

However, BYBs and puppy factories latched onto the concept of the 'large non-shed family dog' and, in spite of the fact that at least half the pups won't be non-shed, the breed took off like a rocketship.

But look at them - labradors: even-tempered but potentially single-minded dogs who can show great loyalty to one person but also appear completely oblivious to everyone and anyone as they go about their business during the day, and poodles - highly intelligent dogs who can be like an emotional sponge for negative atmosphere in a household and can also be highly strung and anxious.

Get the right cross, you have an even-tempered, highly biddable, medium-large, loyal, highly-trainable non-shedding hypoallergenic dog. Hooray!

Get the wrong cross, and you get a medium-large, single-minded, oblivious, intelligent to the point of mischief, anxious, highly strung dog that sheds all over the house and costs a fortune to groom.

Both of the people I know in my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances who own labradoodles - well they have the second version.

If i read correctly the person who oringally bred the lab cross poodle has said he regrets doing it, The cross should never have been bred. I would never buy a crossbred dog i'm sticking with purebred. At least i know what to expect from a purebred then a cross.

[shortstep]

I know that to get the purebreds we have today were crossed with other breeds. But answer this

What work can the lab cross poodle do that a purebred poodle or lab can't do?

The way i see it why breed a crossbreed that does the same work as the purebred lab or poodle does. Every breed is bred for something. Border collies,cattle dogs etc were bred to herd livestock, Goldens,albs etc were bred to hunt ducks and other birds. For the lab cross poodle to be a purebred would have to do a job that niether the purebred lab or purebred poodle can do thats the way i see it.

LOL well I have often thought the same thing. Once we had the border collie why bother creating breeds such as the aussies, kelpies or cattle dogs. LOL (not really just making a point)

Sorry but there is no reason what so every that people should not create new breeds, even if they do the job of some other breed.

The more breeds we have the better for the future of dogs. There is always need of new genetics. We have narrowed the gene pool over the past 100 years to a very few breed of dogs and we should be moving towards undoing that situation.

Edited March 18, 2011 by shortstep

[cassie]

For the lab cross poodle to be a purebred would have to do a job that niether the purebred lab or purebred poodle can do thats the way i see it.

The origin of the breed did have that in mind - the two breeds were crossed by Wally Conran for a blind woman who lived in Hawaii and wanted a guide dog, but had a husband who was allergic to dogs. Conran's aim was to breed a dog with the size and temprament of a labrador but with the hypoallergenic and non-coat-shedding aspects of a poodle - so all the benefit of a guide dog, but without the sneezes.

I truly don't understand this, couldn't a Standard Poodle be trained as a guide dog? Poodles are highly intelligent dogs, aren't they? (I'm honestly asking the question, I haven't ever had much to do with them, but I always thought they were one of the more clever breeds.) Ok so Labs are the "traditional" breed to use as a guide dog, but many other breeds have been used too, why not a PURE Poodle?

[shortstep]

However, BYBs and puppy factories latched onto the concept of the 'large non-shed family dog'

Well thank goodness the BYB and puppy farmers (here we go again name calling) are doing such a good job in screening hips.

I was very impressed to see the labradoodles are ranked the 6th or was it 7th most numerous breed in Australia to have their hips screened.

And when you take into account the short time labradooldles have been around compared to how long people have been screening labs and poodles (are most ANKC breeders screening Poodles or Labs? I would say not when you look at the total numbers of these breeds that have been screened in AVA), anyway it surely shows that the breeders of labradoodles are ranked up there with the elite of the ANKC dog breeders when it comes to AVA screening for hips.

Edited March 18, 2011 by shortstep

[Dust Angel]

[if i read correctly the person who oringally bred the lab cross poodle has said he regrets doing it, The cross should never have been bred. I would never buy a crossbred dog i'm sticking with purebred. At least i know what to expect from a purebred then a cross.

Correct - google Labradoodle creator regrets creating and youll get about 83,000 hits. This is from one Link

"I don't regret the dog, not for the purpose I bred it for," Wally Conron tells Paw Nation, "I regret all the people who got on the bandwagon willy-nilly. People who are breeding poodle crosses for the money, who have no concern for parentage."

How was Conron to know that by crossing one of his kennel's best Labs with a standard poodle, he would unwittingly spark an international trend that would spawn the schnoodle, the groodle, the roodle and countless other similar designer breeds?

In 1988, service-dog trainer Conron received a letter from a woman in Hawaii who needed a seeing-eye dog that wouldn't shed, because her husband was highly allergic. At that time, no one had ever bred a Labrador retriever with an allergy-friendly standard poodle, at least not on purpose.

So why is Conron so ashamed of his own creation? Like many others, he feels that the labradoodle trend started a gold rush for unscrupulous backyard breeders with no knowledge of proper dog breeding.

"One of our litters had 10 pups in it and only three were actually allergy-free," says Conron. "Let's face it: they're a crossbreed. You never know what you're going to get. It's a bit like buying a pig in a poke, yet people all over are charging more for labradoodles than purebreds."

Edited March 18, 2011 by Dust Angel

[WoofnHoof]

I truly don't understand this, couldn't a Standard Poodle be trained as a guide dog? Poodles are highly intelligent dogs, aren't they? (I'm honestly asking the question, I haven't ever had much to do with them, but I always thought they were one of the more clever breeds.) Ok so Labs are the "traditional" breed to use as a guide dog, but many other breeds have been used too, why not a PURE Poodle?

My understanding of this is that poodles are unsuited for guide dog work as they are often highly strung and need far more mental stimulation than labs do. That's the case with most poodles I've had anything to do with anyway, labs are unruly when young but settle well into this role with age. Someone with more poodle experience surely would be able to clarify if this is the case though but I would assume there was a signficantly good reason for the cross being attempted in the first place as if it were that simple it would have been done well before now. I know poodle fan has posted pics before of a poodle in the role of a guide dog but since this is the exception rather than the rule obviously there is a significant barrier to the breeds suitability for this particular job, both are retrieving breeds but that's about where the simialrity ends.

The real question is that if the cross is producing all these awful dogs why are people still lining up to buy them? Why is the breed (whether or not you agree it is a breed) still so popular? This debate has raged on here well before I joined DOL in 2006 and yet the pound doesn't seem any more flooded with oodles than it does of any other types of dog other than the rarer purebreeds. Why aren't people lining up in droves to get rid of these dogs? Why do they go back for seconds or thirds? Clearly a niche exists for a large non shedding breed and whilever there aren't enough purebreds being promoted and bred to fill this niche then clearly the need will be filled by the cross. If they can get the dogs to breed true and do all the right health tests then more power to them.

I also don't get the argument for a 'purpose', the making money purpose is only a problem when welfare is compromised, otherwise it's no less noble than any other purpose for breeding dogs, after all every working breed has been developed to 'make money' just in a more indirect fashion by replacing human labour.

[cassie]

I truly don't understand this, couldn't a Standard Poodle be trained as a guide dog? Poodles are highly intelligent dogs, aren't they? (I'm honestly asking the question, I haven't ever had much to do with them, but I always thought they were one of the more clever breeds.) Ok so Labs are the "traditional" breed to use as a guide dog, but many other breeds have been used too, why not a PURE Poodle?

My understanding of this is that poodles are unsuited for guide dog work as they are often highly strung and need far more mental stimulation than labs do. That's the case with most poodles I've had anything to do with anyway, labs are unruly when young but settle well into this role with age. Someone with more poodle experience surely would be able to clarify if this is the case though but I would assume there was a signficantly good reason for the cross being attempted in the first place as if it were that simple it would have been done well before now. I know poodle fan has posted pics before of a poodle in the role of a guide dog but since this is the exception rather than the rule obviously there is a significant barrier to the breeds suitability for this particular job, both are retrieving breeds but that's about where the simialrity ends.

Thanks for your response. I would have thought that thousands and thousands of Poodles would be UNsuitable sure, but maybe the odd couple from certain lines would be ok to be trained as guide dogs? Just like Labs, I've met so many that could never perform in such a role, but then the ones you see that do are simply amazing Like any breed, certain individuals are better suited to perform the role for which they were bred. Maybe with careful and selective breeding (as is done with Labs) then some Poodles could be deemed suitable? Or maybe I'm just talking cr@p, I really don't know, just throwing out the idea!

[WoofnHoof]

Thanks for your response. I would have thought that thousands and thousands of Poodles would be UNsuitable sure, but maybe the odd couple from certain lines would be ok to be trained as guide dogs? Just like Labs, I've met so many that could never perform in such a role, but then the ones you see that do are simply amazing Like any breed, certain individuals are better suited to perform the role for which they were bred. Maybe with careful and selective breeding (as is done with Labs) then some Poodles could be deemed suitable? Or maybe I'm just talking cr@p, I really don't know, just throwing out the idea!

Yeah I would think that if poodle breeders did pool their resources and bred towards a temperament more suited for this work no doubt they could produce it, but whether there are enough standard poodle breeders (and dogs) out there willing and able to do this is obviously the main question. I'm working on the assumption that the cross seemed like a good idea at the time and no doubt it is if they can get it to breed true to a stable type, I think in terms of the pet situation a lot of the difficulty with poodles as pets is primarily due to image, heaps of times I've seen newbies post 'what breed' threads and they've stipulated 'no poodles' usually because their husband won't let them! I think if the poodle got an image makeover AND standards were more plentiful we would see a shift, although it probably needed to happen well before the cross was attempted.

[koalathebear]

LOL well I have often thought the same thing. Once we had the border collie why bother creating breeds such as the aussies, kelpies or cattle dogs. LOL (not really just making a point)

True. From memory, today's Kelpies are descended from the UK Collie and the earlier Kelpies were basically border collie crosses. Today's 'purebred Kelpie' seems to have only really been around since the late 1800s and there's a lot of speculation that there's a lot of border collie and probably even a wee bit of dingo in the 'purebred' mix ...

I agree with you - although all herding dogs, Aussies, Kelpies, Coolies, Cattle Dogs all have different albeit similar purposes and if you were just going to stick to the purebred, perhaps we would never have gone past the original collies ...

Conceptually I can't see a problem with aspiring to make 'new' purebred dogs so long as it is done cautiously and by people who know what they're doing. No I'm not advocating crossbreeds/DDs or denigrating purebreeds - just saying that new breeds all start somewhere and as shortstep has pointed out, we'd never have some of the herding breeds we do if people hadn't experimented. Even a dog like the Doberman has only been around since the late 1800s. If you can trust wikipedia:

Doberman Pinschers were first bred in the town of Apolda, in the German state of Thuringia around 1890, following the Franco-Prussian War by Karl Friedrich Louis Dobermann. Dobermann served in the dangerous role of local tax collector, and ran the Apolda dog pound. With access to dogs of many breeds, he aimed to create a breed that would be ideal for protecting him during his collections, which took him through many bandit-infested areas. He set out to breed a new type of dog that, in his opinion, would be the perfect combination of strength, loyalty, intelligence, and ferocity. Later, Otto Goeller and Philip Gruening continued to develop the breed to become the dog that is seen today.

The breed is believed to have been created from several different breeds of dogs that had the characteristics that Dobermann was looking for, including the German Pinscher, the Beauceron, the Rottweiler, the Thuringian Sylvan Dog, the Greyhound, the Great Dane, the Weimaraner, the German Shorthaired Pointer, the Manchester Terrier and the Old German Shepherd Dog. The exact ratios of mixing, and even the exact breeds that were used, remain uncertain to this day, although many experts believe that the Doberman Pinscher is a combination of at least four of these breeds. The single exception is the documented crossing with the Greyhound and Manchester Terrier.

Side question - presumably some of the 'miniature' versions of dogs were originally crossbreeds as well? eg Miniature Schnauzer originated in Germany only in the mid-to-late 19th century and was developed from crosses between the Standard Schnauzer and a smaller breed (Poodle and Affenpinscher?) The Miniature Pinscher was a mix of Italian Greyhounds and Dachsunds. No idea about the miniature poodle i.e. how you turn a standard poodle into a miniature one.

I think as with many things, it's reality and practicality that causes the problem. Indiscriminate cross-breeding leads to problems but presumably methodical, rational and purposeful crossing can be a good thing. On a smaller scale, something that springs to mind is the recent dalmation issue where Fiona the dalmation is descended from a dalmatian and a pointer which apparently allows her to skip a mutant gene that effects dalmations ...

Edited March 18, 2011 by koalathebear

[blacklabrador]

however, while ever they refuse to change the name they have no hope in my opinion in ever getting recognition for or acceptance of their dogs as a breed.

Therein lies the problems. If they just dropped the silly name they'd be in with a shot for being taken seriously and set apart from the cross breeding frenzy.

I agree.

Labradoodle is such a pooncy name.

Poo-dor is a much more apt.

[frufru]

How smart are poodles? Check out these dogs!!! Personally, I have never understood where the idea that standard poodles are highly strung comes from. Poodles are meant to be joyful - but this is not the same as neurotic.

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=45201

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=45180

Edited March 18, 2011 by frufru

[Staranais]

I was very impressed to see the labradoodles are ranked the 6th or was it 7th most numerous breed in Australia to have their hips screened.

Are they really? That's very interesting. I don't doubt you, but could you post a link to where you got the information from, as I'd be interested in finding out more.

I have nothing against people breeding labradoodles in theory, so long as they're doing right by their dogs and their puppy buyers.

However, I don't think the labradoodle will ever become an ANKC recognised breed, any more than the American Pitbull Terrier will. The labrador and poodle people would have a fit at the name, for a start!

Edited March 18, 2011 by Staranais

[~Anne~]

And if the ANKC is what you consider to be the standard for registries, then I guess that might be an issue. If you don't think of that registry as the ultimate then....

[shortstep]

I was very impressed to see the labradoodles are ranked the 6th or was it 7th most numerous breed in Australia to have their hips screened.

Are they really? That's very interesting. I don't doubt you, but could you post a link to where you got the information from, as I'd be interested in finding out more.

I have nothing against people breeding labradoodles in theory, so long as they're doing right by their dogs and their puppy buyers.

However, I don't think the labradoodle will ever become an ANKC recognised breed, any more than the American Pitbull Terrier will. The labrador and poodle people would have a fit at the name, for a start!

Someone posted it on DOL the other day.

http://www.ava.com.au/about-us/programs-1

look for link

Current Australian Breed Averages

Labradoodles are ranked 7th

1st Labs

2nd Goldens

3rd Rotts

4th GSD

5th Ridges

6th Border collies

7th Labradoodles

[Tay.]

The actual word 'labradoodle' annoys me. Any designer dog 'breed' name, actually, I cringe when I hear it.

I often have the "Oh my friend got a Puggle!" "*don't scream, don't scream, don't scream* Oh, you mean a Pug/Beagle mix?" conversation.

I think the 'labradoodle' just encourages breeding for money. If anyone can through any two breeds together, give it a silly name and sell the offspring for stupid prices - any average non-ethical person will! Not to mention pet shops selling puppies! Ughhh! Some people probably put more thinking into buying shoes then a DD puppy... sad sad sad.

Why should the 'labradoodle' become ANKC recognized when other breeds like the Koolie aren't?

Edited March 18, 2011 by DogSportObsessed

[RallyValley]

I truly don't understand this, couldn't a Standard Poodle be trained as a guide dog? Poodles are highly intelligent dogs, aren't they? (I'm honestly asking the question, I haven't ever had much to do with them, but I always thought they were one of the more clever breeds.) Ok so Labs are the "traditional" breed to use as a guide dog, but many other breeds have been used too, why not a PURE Poodle?

My understanding of this is that poodles are unsuited for guide dog work as they are often highly strung and need far more mental stimulation than labs do. That's the case with most poodles I've had anything to do with anyway, labs are unruly when young but settle well into this role with age. Someone with more poodle experience surely would be able to clarify if this is the case though but I would assume there was a signficantly good reason for the cross being attempted in the first place as if it were that simple it would have been done well before now. I know poodle fan has posted pics before of a poodle in the role of a guide dog but since this is the exception rather than the rule obviously there is a significant barrier to the breeds suitability for this particular job, both are retrieving breeds but that's about where the simialrity ends.

Thanks for your response. I would have thought that thousands and thousands of Poodles would be UNsuitable sure, but maybe the odd couple from certain lines would be ok to be trained as guide dogs? Just like Labs, I've met so many that could never perform in such a role, but then the ones you see that do are simply amazing Like any breed, certain individuals are better suited to perform the role for which they were bred. Maybe with careful and selective breeding (as is done with Labs) then some Poodles could be deemed suitable? Or maybe I'm just talking cr@p, I really don't know, just throwing out the idea!

NZ Poodle Guidedogs

http://thepoodleanddogblog.typepad.com/the...-seriously.html

US lady who training a Poodle guidedog

http://aidachristine.blogspot.com/2010/03/...-new-trick.html

This is just from the first page of Google, sure there are 100's more out there!