Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[Clyde]

Many of the Labradors I have met are anything but 'laid back'!

I owned 2 labs and they were not laid back at all. In fact they were very athletic and driven and a sight to behold when they dived into water to do their job

I agree. 'Laid back' and 'Lab' rarely goes in the same sentence.

I come across a lot of DD's with work, I like or dislike them based on their individual merits not on their breeds - however strangely I don't believe I've ever come across a 'Labradoodle' that I've liked - something about crossing those two that just doesn't work. I've fallen for plenty of other DD's though.

[Sheridan]

I think we've had this conversation before, no? And I think at the time it was about tollers?

It is not my job to be a broker for people looking for a puppy. I can tell them that the wheaten and kerry are not right for them because of particular reasons (and I'll just reiterate that there hasn't been a 'what breed should I get?' thread that has made me go, 'That person's just right for a wheaten or a kerry!'). What you seem to want is to make over a breed into what any buyer wants but wheatens and kerries (insert any breed) are those breeds with those temperaments for a reason. You want to change what makes them those breeds and if that's what's required to make someone get a wheaten or a kerry then I don't want to have my breeds in the hands of those sorts of people. Or indeed, you. Because, then they wouldn't be those breeds and people may as well get a stuffed toy. I don't want generic blah dogs. You may but I don't.

I don't 'want' anything, I'm pointing out the obvious fact that there is a demand for dogs of lab type that are low or non shedding. I'm pointing at a few ways that pure breeders could cater to this niche without the development of a need breed. Again the use of the term 'generic blah dog's could be perceived as insulting and I don't even own a lab!

Clearly, my use of generic blah dog wasn't referring to a lab.

Sorry, but you say you don't want anything but this is a barrow that you continue to push, is it not? My apologies if it was someone else in the previous conversation who was advocating a change in tollers to cater to a particular market.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Sheridan

[WoofnHoof]

Clearly, my use of generic blah dog wasn't referring to a lab.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory.

Sorry, but you say you don't want anything but this is a barrow that you continue to push, is it not? My apologies if it was someone else in the previous conversation who was advocating a change in tollers to cater to a particular market.

I don't remember having a discussion about tollers but I have had similar discussions in the past because the question always comes up 'why do people keep buying these dogs?' I am attempting to answer it from the perspective of someone who is simply a dog owner not a breed fancier and not a purist, why ask the question if people don't want to hear the answers? Not that they are the only answers mind you, I mean if you ask me what I prefer breeds changing, the labradoodle as a recognized breed or better promotion and recognition of pure breeds as pets I will choose the latter every time but since the latter solution is no closer to being implemented than it was when I joined in 2006 then I tend to put voice to other options which may or may not be viable solutions. I've already mentioned several times that the perceptions of poodles in the general public need to be changed but it isn't happening, the other breeds are simply too rare and usually it is the poodle put forth as a good non shedding family pet.

It's not up to me to decide the fate of purebred dogs I'm not a breeder nor am I a fancier of most of the breeds under discussion but I am interested in the welfare of dogs, so if the development of a new breed with a temperament and coat type more suited to modern living will give dogs a better welfare outcome then yes I will argue the advantages of doing so. If the adaptation of existing breeds will improve welfare outcomes then I'm interested in exploring that too.

[poodlefan]

Again name one of these breeds with a temperament comparable to that of the Labrador and not as rare as hens teeth?

If pure breed people are going to whinge about the development of the labradoodle as a new breed then they need to promote a viable and practical alternative, otherwise all the discussion in the world means nothing.

Lagotto or Standard Poodle. Both gundogs. Portuguese Water Dogs can are pretty solid too.

A mature, well trained Standard Poodle is a rock solid dog. You just have to survive adolescence to get one.

I'm sure that's a comment a few Lab owners can relate to!

[Kavik]

I think the thing is that the temperament and coat type of oodles is NOT more suited to modern living. The temperaments of most I have seen are high energy, skittish, nervous and their coats some are much more difficult to deal with than a Poodle. The oodles are marketed well but the real thing falls far short of its marketing hype.

[Sheridan]

Clearly, my use of generic blah dog wasn't referring to a lab.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory.

Sorry, but the above doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify?

Sorry, but you say you don't want anything but this is a barrow that you continue to push, is it not? My apologies if it was someone else in the previous conversation who was advocating a change in tollers to cater to a particular market.

I don't remember having a discussion about tollers but I have had similar discussions in the past because the question always comes up 'why do people keep buying these dogs?' I am attempting to answer it from the perspective of someone who is simply a dog owner not a breed fancier and not a purist, why ask the question if people don't want to hear the answers? Not that they are the only answers mind you, I mean if you ask me what I prefer breeds changing, the labradoodle as a recognized breed or better promotion and recognition of pure breeds as pets I will choose the latter every time but since the latter solution is no closer to being implemented than it was when I joined in 2006 then I tend to put voice to other options which may or may not be viable solutions. I've already mentioned several times that the perceptions of poodles in the general public need to be changed but it isn't happening, the other breeds are simply too rare and usually it is the poodle put forth as a good non shedding family pet.

It's not up to me to decide the fate of purebred dogs I'm not a breeder nor am I a fancier of most of the breeds under discussion but I am interested in the welfare of dogs, so if the development of a new breed with a temperament and coat type more suited to modern living will give dogs a better welfare outcome then yes I will argue the advantages of doing so. If the adaptation of existing breeds will improve welfare outcomes then I'm interested in exploring that too.

Why do people keep buying labradoodles? General answer: because they've been conned.

I, too, am a dog owner not a breeder and not a show person, though I am a purebred dog snob when it comes to people being conned into thinking a poodle x is not going to have poodle traits. It may, it may not. I have no objection to the fate of the labradoodle (whether it ends up with that name or not) being put into the hands of responsible people rather than puppyfarmers and BYBs. Indeed, I think that's what most of us want for all dogs, is it not? I just don't think that changing a breed's set traits so the Joe Blow can have a labrador that looks like a poodle is the answer. Nor can I see how adapting existing breeds for Joe Blow is in any way a welfare issue.

[WoofnHoof]

Clearly, my use of generic blah dog wasn't referring to a lab.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory.

Sorry, but the above doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify?

I'm saying that it's the lab temp that seems to be the predominating feature that is important to people who are buying labradoodles, ie they basically want a lab that doesn't shed. They don't want poodles for various reasons but temperament has been slated as one of those reasons. So when I talk about the option of breeding towards this temperament type using either the non shedding breeds or the development of a new breed with these traits people come back saying they don't want their breeds 'dumbed down' or various other derogatory terms. Maybe it's just getting lost in translation but when I talk about breeding for a more suitable temperament for the average home I mean the average home in which the Labrador generally fits quite well (as evidenced by it's popularity over many years), the Labrador was getting along just fine as a family pet until yards got smaller and people started looking at bringing dogs inside and noticing the amount of hair shed on the furniture etc hence the shift towards non shedding breeds.

Sorry, but you say you don't want anything but this is a barrow that you continue to push, is it not? My apologies if it was someone else in the previous conversation who was advocating a change in tollers to cater to a particular market.

I don't remember having a discussion about tollers but I have had similar discussions in the past because the question always comes up 'why do people keep buying these dogs?' I am attempting to answer it from the perspective of someone who is simply a dog owner not a breed fancier and not a purist, why ask the question if people don't want to hear the answers? Not that they are the only answers mind you, I mean if you ask me what I prefer breeds changing, the labradoodle as a recognized breed or better promotion and recognition of pure breeds as pets I will choose the latter every time but since the latter solution is no closer to being implemented than it was when I joined in 2006 then I tend to put voice to other options which may or may not be viable solutions. I've already mentioned several times that the perceptions of poodles in the general public need to be changed but it isn't happening, the other breeds are simply too rare and usually it is the poodle put forth as a good non shedding family pet.

It's not up to me to decide the fate of purebred dogs I'm not a breeder nor am I a fancier of most of the breeds under discussion but I am interested in the welfare of dogs, so if the development of a new breed with a temperament and coat type more suited to modern living will give dogs a better welfare outcome then yes I will argue the advantages of doing so. If the adaptation of existing breeds will improve welfare outcomes then I'm interested in exploring that too.

Why do people keep buying labradoodles? General answer: because they've been conned.

I, too, am a dog owner not a breeder and not a show person, though I am a purebred dog snob when it comes to people being conned into thinking a poodle x is not going to have poodle traits. It may, it may not. I have no objection to the fate of the labradoodle (whether it ends up with that name or not) being put into the hands of responsible people rather than puppyfarmers and BYBs. Indeed, I think that's what most of us want for all dogs, is it not? I just don't think that changing a breed's set traits so the Joe Blow can have a labrador that looks like a poodle is the answer. Nor can I see how adapting existing breeds for Joe Blow is in any way a welfare issue.

That's the thing I'm not talking about f1 crosses and bybs I'm talking about the attempt to make this type breed true and have it recognised as a breed, there is no doubt that people are being conned with f1 crosses and the false claims about shedding and temperament but they don't have a lot of other options. They want a lab type dog that doesn't shed, that's all they are asking for.

IMO it is a welfare issue because one of the main reasons there are bybs and puppy farms producing these crosses is because the public has not been given a viable option for the type of dog they want, in the past a lab type dog was enough for a lot of people, now it needs to be a lab type dog that doesn't shed. What people want in their dogs changes over time and often the breeds change in response, some hunting dogs were selectively bred to become retrievers as the need arose, some sled dogs became long distance sled pullers while others became short distance pullers, the changes were great enough that they became separate breeds over time. There is no difference to me dogs have always changed according to the role they play whether it's the result of diversification within a breed or without, the big difference now is that with marketing people have been able to make money from claims about any old cross, which complicates matters for people who are trying to actually create the breed.

[poodlemum]

Dogzonline was known to be a place where people became educated and learned about issues which will affect our dogs,debated and pushed the topics we wanted to particpate in without fear that the man was being played instead of the ball. If it is to be a place where we are limited to what we can say because some of us only want to talk about ANKC ,ANKC registered dogs with others who only have ANKC registered dogs and only pro ANKC is ever allowed to be part of the discussion perhaps its time Troy considered changing the name of the site to ankczonline or perhaps saving himself the grief and selling it to the ANKC.

Steve what is stopping you from creating your own forum, perhaps you could call it MDBAonline. This would enable you to talk about labradorxpoodles, developing new breeds, altering breed standards, how the ANKC is a crappy outdated organisation and whatever else you choose to discuss without having to deal with posts from any old fashioned, non-progressive ANKC supporters. It would also be a good place to discuss how you're going to run the MDBA 'shows' and all other events you are planning to conduct in the future.

I won't put a little man rolling on the floor with laughter after this post because personally I don't find your continual knocking of the ANKC in the least amusing, I have also noticed that your derogatory remarks have markedly increased since the formation of the new MDBA registry.

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

Miranda - great post, if you get warned or banned for it, then DOL it not was it purports to be - this is a PUREBREED dog forum

[Steve]

Dogzonline was known to be a place where people became educated and learned about issues which will affect our dogs,debated and pushed the topics we wanted to particpate in without fear that the man was being played instead of the ball. If it is to be a place where we are limited to what we can say because some of us only want to talk about ANKC ,ANKC registered dogs with others who only have ANKC registered dogs and only pro ANKC is ever allowed to be part of the discussion perhaps its time Troy considered changing the name of the site to ankczonline or perhaps saving himself the grief and selling it to the ANKC.

Steve what is stopping you from creating your own forum, perhaps you could call it MDBAonline. This would enable you to talk about labradorxpoodles, developing new breeds, altering breed standards, how the ANKC is a crappy outdated organisation and whatever else you choose to discuss without having to deal with posts from any old fashioned, non-progressive ANKC supporters. It would also be a good place to discuss how you're going to run the MDBA 'shows' and all other events you are planning to conduct in the future.

I won't put a little man rolling on the floor with laughter after this post because personally I don't find your continual knocking of the ANKC in the least amusing, I have also noticed that your derogatory remarks have markedly increased since the formation of the new MDBA registry.

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

Miranda - great post, if you get warned or banned for it, then DOL it not was it purports to be - this is a PUREBREED dog forum

Which gives the right to attack someone and call for censorship ? That makes sense especially when the attack is based on crap.

[lilli_star]

And labradors are perfect dogs (in the right hands!)

I agree! Of course, we are somewhat biased

I agree with those that have stated that the "Labradoodle" cannot become "purebred" when there is so much variation in their coat, height, temprement, etc. I have only interacted with one for a long period of time, and he is a gangly galoot, for lack of a better term. At least 2 years old (maybe a bit older), and seemingly no sense- my 10 months old Labrador has better manners. However, in saying that, he has had little to no training AFAIK either.

As I am sure others have mentioned already, the "Labradoodle" was a failed attempt at a hypoallergenic Guide Dog- now (imo), people have just been sucked into the DD phenomenom.

Personally, I would rather have my Labrador who may shed, but that I can brush easily, than a "Labradoodle" who needs to be groomed regularly.

[shortstep]

And labradors are perfect dogs (in the right hands!)

I agree! Of course, we are somewhat biased

I agree with those that have stated that the "Labradoodle" cannot become "purebred" when there is so much variation in their coat, height, temprement, etc. I have only interacted with one for a long period of time, and he is a gangly galoot, for lack of a better term. At least 2 years old (maybe a bit older), and seemingly no sense- my 10 months old Labrador has better manners. However, in saying that, he has had little to no training AFAIK either.

As I am sure others have mentioned already, the "Labradoodle" was a failed attempt at a hypoallergenic Guide Dog- now (imo), people have just been sucked into the DD phenomenom.

Personally, I would rather have my Labrador who may shed, but that I can brush easily, than a "Labradoodle" who needs to be groomed regularly.

Can I rephrase this a bit.

You are saying that

1. Only meeting ANKC values of 'breed' can make a breed a breed in your opinion. Any breed not meeting ANKC values is not a breed.

2. To meet ANKC values a breed of dog must only carry one coat type. Except for the ANKC breeds that are allowed to have more than one coat type.

3. To meet ANKC values a breed of dog must only have one temperament type. Except for the ANKC breeds that are allowed to have more than one temperament type. (edited to add)

4. You have only known one labradoodle and it was an inferior dog in your assessment.

Points well taken.

Since we should try to limit my converstation to only ANKC topics, such as values, breeders and breeds.

I would like to know how ANKC breeders or other folks feel about haplotypes and how haplotypes are or should be managed in ANKC and how this impacts ANKC dogs today and in the future.

Can you ever see a time when a breed or a dog within a breed might be considered desirable or valued because they have a large number of haplotypes or haplotypes that are rare in the breed?

Should ANKC breeders try to reduce, increase or maintain the number of haplotypes in their breed?

Does any one know the number of haplotypes in their breed population right now?

Is there any haplotype you would like to see changed, added or removed in your breed?

Would you consider having your breed club help to pay for all or part the population to be tested to find this out, as this (is, is not, don't know??) important for ANKC breeders to know about and understand in your opinion?

Edited March 22, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

The name will in my opinion always create this kind of argument and confusion. Some people in this thread are talking about a group of dogs where the breeders are breeding toward a breed recognition. If they were not then going to all the trouble of having a breed standard and trying to get to a place where they are breeding consistently predictible dogs would not be needed or possible. But others are talking about dogs which are cross bred dogs with thousands of possible combinations and potentials in phenotype and genotype in every litter.

Both are called labradoodles. If the breeders who are working toward one day having a consistent type capable of applying to a recognised registry for breed recognition

dont have the name trade marked - and they dont - then any body can call any dog a labradoodle and all it does is help legitimise the whole designer dog concept anyway.

Clearly some breeders have been able to work on developing new breeds [or all dogs would be the same] and most are able to be traced back to which breeds were in the foundations.When we look at the history of breed development and discuss current breed standards we talk of these breeders with respect and accept that when they designed their breeding programs, desired function and breed standards they knew what they were doing. Arguments here about specific breed standards have always been counteracted with how the breeders who were the foundation breeders did what they did with a specific purpose. Theoretically breeders who are working toward breed recognition in this century have a better shot at getting the thing right than any who have gone before if they use modern science and breeding protocols to select breeding stock based on things foundation breeders in the past couldnt utilise.

So I guess the question is - in the year 2011 will any breeders who are involved in any kind of breed development with the hope of eventual breed recognition be given such rough treatment and their dogs spoken of as mongrels or is this something which is specific to this particular breed in development because of its stupid name?

How do we feel about Mini foxies and the people who are working with that for example ? I believe the name is a bit of an issue for some there too.

What of the breeders working with American Bulldogs,Shilohs etc ? In some countries maremma Sheepdog are not recognised as a breed. Would I be seen as breeding mutts if I lived in these countries - even though the breed has been recognised as a breed by others for centuries?

[Sheridan]

Clearly, my use of generic blah dog wasn't referring to a lab.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory.

Sorry, but the above doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify?

I'm saying that it's the lab temp that seems to be the predominating feature that is important to people who are buying labradoodles, ie they basically want a lab that doesn't shed. They don't want poodles for various reasons but temperament has been slated as one of those reasons. So when I talk about the option of breeding towards this temperament type using either the non shedding breeds or the development of a new breed with these traits people come back saying they don't want their breeds 'dumbed down' or various other derogatory terms. Maybe it's just getting lost in translation but when I talk about breeding for a more suitable temperament for the average home I mean the average home in which the Labrador generally fits quite well (as evidenced by it's popularity over many years), the Labrador was getting along just fine as a family pet until yards got smaller and people started looking at bringing dogs inside and noticing the amount of hair shed on the furniture etc hence the shift towards non shedding breeds.

There are plenty of breeds out there, I suggest you promote those.

That's the thing I'm not talking about f1 crosses and bybs I'm talking about the attempt to make this type breed true and have it recognised as a breed, there is no doubt that people are being conned with f1 crosses and the false claims about shedding and temperament but they don't have a lot of other options. They want a lab type dog that doesn't shed, that's all they are asking for.

IMO it is a welfare issue because one of the main reasons there are bybs and puppy farms producing these crosses is because the public has not been given a viable option for the type of dog they want, in the past a lab type dog was enough for a lot of people, now it needs to be a lab type dog that doesn't shed. What people want in their dogs changes over time and often the breeds change in response, some hunting dogs were selectively bred to become retrievers as the need arose, some sled dogs became long distance sled pullers while others became short distance pullers, the changes were great enough that they became separate breeds over time. There is no difference to me dogs have always changed according to the role they play whether it's the result of diversification within a breed or without, the big difference now is that with marketing people have been able to make money from claims about any old cross, which complicates matters for people who are trying to actually create the breed.

Then I suggest that instead of ruining current breeds, you direct them to other gundogs that may suit them.

Which gives the right to attack someone and call for censorship ? That makes sense especially when the attack is based on crap.

Doing some positive promotion of the MDBA again, I see, Steve ...

[Steve]

Clearly, my use of generic blah dog wasn't referring to a lab.

I'm sorry, when the people buying and selling labradoodles push the lab temp then clearly that is the desirable quality, yet when it is suggested that if people want to push whatever breed as a viable option they need to look at this temperament their response is derogatory.

Sorry, but the above doesn't make sense to me. Can you clarify?

I'm saying that it's the lab temp that seems to be the predominating feature that is important to people who are buying labradoodles, ie they basically want a lab that doesn't shed. They don't want poodles for various reasons but temperament has been slated as one of those reasons. So when I talk about the option of breeding towards this temperament type using either the non shedding breeds or the development of a new breed with these traits people come back saying they don't want their breeds 'dumbed down' or various other derogatory terms. Maybe it's just getting lost in translation but when I talk about breeding for a more suitable temperament for the average home I mean the average home in which the Labrador generally fits quite well (as evidenced by it's popularity over many years), the Labrador was getting along just fine as a family pet until yards got smaller and people started looking at bringing dogs inside and noticing the amount of hair shed on the furniture etc hence the shift towards non shedding breeds.

There are plenty of breeds out there, I suggest you promote those.

That's the thing I'm not talking about f1 crosses and bybs I'm talking about the attempt to make this type breed true and have it recognised as a breed, there is no doubt that people are being conned with f1 crosses and the false claims about shedding and temperament but they don't have a lot of other options. They want a lab type dog that doesn't shed, that's all they are asking for.

IMO it is a welfare issue because one of the main reasons there are bybs and puppy farms producing these crosses is because the public has not been given a viable option for the type of dog they want, in the past a lab type dog was enough for a lot of people, now it needs to be a lab type dog that doesn't shed. What people want in their dogs changes over time and often the breeds change in response, some hunting dogs were selectively bred to become retrievers as the need arose, some sled dogs became long distance sled pullers while others became short distance pullers, the changes were great enough that they became separate breeds over time. There is no difference to me dogs have always changed according to the role they play whether it's the result of diversification within a breed or without, the big difference now is that with marketing people have been able to make money from claims about any old cross, which complicates matters for people who are trying to actually create the breed.

Then I suggest that instead of ruining current breeds, you direct them to other gundogs that may suit them.

Which gives the right to attack someone and call for censorship ? That makes sense especially when the attack is based on crap.

Doing some positive promotion of the MDBA again, I see, Steve ...

No Sheridan just defending myself.

[WoofnHoof]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to? And what is their chance of getting a pup before they are 90?

As far as 'ruining breeds' goes that is entirely your perception, dog breeds are a human creation that change and shift according to needs and niches, sometimes breeds need to change in order to surivie and adapt to new roles.

[Steve]

mucked it up

Edited March 22, 2011 by Steve

[Kavik]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to?

Labradoodles are NOT Lab type dogs that don't shed!

[Steve]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to?

Labradoodles are NOT Lab type dogs that don't shed!

Yep If you want a lab type dog that doesnt shed - its not in my opinion a labradoodle.

[Sheridan]

Ok I've forgotten, which are those breeds I'm supposed to be directing people who want a lab type dog that doesn't shed to? And what is their chance of getting a pup before they are 90?

To the latter, no idea. To the former, all dogs shed. Labs shed and so do labradoodles.

As far as 'ruining breeds' goes that is entirely your perception, dog breeds are a human creation that change and shift according to needs and niches, sometimes breeds need to change in order to surivie and adapt to new roles.

And in doing so they are no longer the breed. If you want a generic blah dog, go get one. Leave actual breeds alone to those who can appreciate them for what they are.

[darwinroyal]

Honestly, if people put as much effort into choosing a dog as they do a car, dogs would be a lot better off.

You don't see folk who want a small all wheel drive heading down to the local chop shop to buy a Corolla body bolted to a Landcruiser engine and chassis by someone who's done a Stotts correspondence course in mechanics who guarantees Corolla fuel economy with Landcruiser offroad ability.

People buy dogs like that every damn day.