Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[~Anne~]

Labradors are popular with families I feel because of their work as seeing eye dogs and assistance dogs. Who wouldn't want a clever dog that can guide a blind person, a dog with intelligence, a dog with an easy, friendly nature.

The public see a calm, laid back dog while it is working. They hold the breed in high esteem it for its obvious intelligence and hero status.

The reality is that any puppy is a handful, and any breed that isn't nutured the way it should be for that particular breed's temperament and genetic make-up is a potential recipe for a dog that displays negative behaviours.

Sometimes I htink we implant negative thoughts about breeds and it is almost like a self fulfilling prophecy.

People want cross bred dogs for the same reasons they want purebred dogs. It is just simply easier to buy a cross bred dog these days than it is to buy a pure bred dog. We need to find the mid road of not making the business of puppy selling too careless, and not making it too restricted or hard.

Edited March 22, 2011 by ~Anne~

[WoofnHoof]

From the dogz breed info page:

Lab Temp:

TemperamentLabs are loving, people oriented dogs. They are happiest when they are with you. Labs are retrievers and will bring you things they find lying about your house and yard.

They tend to be quite patient with children and wonderful family dogs. They are not guard dogs. They may bark protectively but will generally not act more aggressively.

Labs are wonderful people dogs more likely to lick someone to death than hurt them. They tend to be stable, not easily upset by strange things or occurrences. They will take many things in their stride.

The multipurpose abilities of the Labrador, indicated by their use as guide dogs, drug detector dogs, bomb detector dogs etc is the best indication of their superior stability of temperament and trainability, which of course makes them the most popular family pet.

From the breed standard:

Good tempered, very agile. Excellent nose, soft mouth keen love of water. Adaptable, devoted companion.

Intelligent, keen and biddable, with a strong will to please. Kindly nature, with no trace of agression or undue shyness.

Can't find the equivalent poodle one on dogz so this one is from puppiesforsale.com.au ( link )

Poodle Temp:

The Standard Poodle is an elegant looking dog that carries itself with an air of pride. Poodles are one of the most intelligent dog breeds. They are loyal and easily trained, quick to pick up commands and love pleasing their human companions.

With their alert nature and intelligence, the Standard Poodle makes for an excellent watchdog and can be trained to alert you of intruders. However, they are so friendly that they don’t make for the best guard dogs.

If over-pampered, this proud pup will become somewhat spoilt and neurotic, but a poodle that knows its place in the pack makes for a great family companion. They enjoy playing and romping with children and, provided they’re introduced at a young age, will happily accept other pets into their “pack”. Standards are considered the most “stable” of the poodle trio.

From the breed standard:

Poodle Temp:

Characteristics: A very active, intelligent, well balanced and elegant looking dog with good temperament, carrying himself very proudly.

Temperament: Good temperament. (Also refer to Characteristics).

These temperaments are not the same, it would be like someone coming on here wanting a dog with a temperament like a sibe but don't want the shedding, should I tell them to suck it up and vaccum more? Especially if no other breeds were available that fitted the buyer's criteria?

[poodlefan]

These temperaments are not the same, it would be like someone coming on here wanting a dog with a temperament like a sibe but don't want the shedding, should I tell them to suck it up and vaccum more? Especially if no other breeds were available that fitted the buyer's criteria?

No, they're not.

But why would crossing a Lab with a poodle guarantee Lab temperament anymore than it would guarantee poodle coat??? Many of these crosses don't have temperaments or coats like either of the parent breeds.

Add the fact that you're not talking the best of the best with either of the breeds used to generate crosses, that the pups are generally raised outside homes and you're pretty much guaranteeing you won't produce what families are looking for.

If people come here asking for a non-shedding dog of "laid back" temperament, the first two things I'm going to ask are:

* what do you mean by "laid back"

* what exercise, training and stimulation will you provide?

Temperament is only partly genetic. The rest is experience and environment. If people would only grasp that ideal family dogs are made, not born, we'd be on our way to better dog ownership in our community.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[WoofnHoof]

I think many people buy crossbreeds because they don't have to answer questions they don't want to and they are easy to find and get. Oh I want a pup, bang you have it in under a week!

The majority of people I know who don't have purebreed dogs wouldn't even know that they had to answer questions to a breeder. In fact the majority of the dog owning public would have no idea about registered purebreed dogs or anything about registered breeders. They don't know a thing about byb'ers either. I know this because I was one of these people about 3 or 4 years ago before I got into dog training and the majority of my friends/family are like this now. I try to educate them but really they don't even care and can't understand why I do either.

Totally agree with your comment of 'Oh I want a pub, bang you have it in under a week!' That is exactly what they want. How do you change this, particularly in society as it is now?

I'm coming from the same background, but I don't think it's just the instant gratification factor I think there is more to it than that, my sister spent time on the net 'researching' because she wanted a non shedding small dog, she bought a maltese shih tzu cross because they were being touted as the best thing since sliced bread. She recognised her mistake but her 'research' skills haven't improved as she has since bought a 'miniature australian bulldog'.

There are more factors at play here than just impulse buying, there is a real opening for purebred dog breeders and breed clubs to step up to the plate and promote their dogs, if they can fit the criteria, we all know that when finding a good home close enough should not be good enough and that goes for temperament as well.

[WoofnHoof]

These temperaments are not the same, it would be like someone coming on here wanting a dog with a temperament like a sibe but don't want the shedding, should I tell them to suck it up and vaccum more? Especially if no other breeds were available that fitted the buyer's criteria?

No, they're not.

But why would crossing a Lab with a poodle guarantee Lab temperament anymore than it would guarantee poodle coat???

Add the fact that you're not talking the best of the best with either of the breeds used to generate crosses, that the pups are generally raised outside homes and you're pretty much guaranteeing you won't produce what families are looking for.

If people come here asking for a non-shedding dog of "laid back" temperament, the first two things I'm going to ask are:

* what do you mean by "laid back"

* what exercise, training and stimulation will you provide?

Temperament is only partly genetic. The rest is experience and environment. If people would only grasp that ideal family dogs are made, not born, we'd be on our way to better dog ownership in our community.

I've never said crossing labs and poodles will guarentee lab temps I'm talking about the broader application of selective breeding for temperament and the thread's original question of labradoodle breed development which is not the same as f1 crosses (that distinction has already been made a number of times).

I also mentioned breeding towards a milder temperament within the breed to result in a different strain such as already exists in many breeds similar to 'show lines' and 'working lines' neither is worse or better than the other they are different and the focus of their breeding goals has been different.

[poodlefan]

I've never said crossing labs and poodles will guarentee lab temps I'm talking about the broader application of selective breeding for temperament and the thread's original question of labradoodle breed development which is not the same as f1 crosses (that distinction has already been made a number of times).

I also mentioned breeding towards a milder temperament within the breed to result in a different strain such as already exists in many breeds similar to 'show lines' and 'working lines' neither is worse or better than the other they are different and the focus of their breeding goals has been different.

Poodles don't need "milder temperament". You're suggesting that there's something wrong with the breed now.

The only thing wrong is people who can't get past a stereotype to the real dog underneath.

Poodles don't have "lines". They don't have a working job now. They are companions. If you don't want a lively people focussed companion, then don't get one. "Laid back" might mean undemanding, unresponsive and sluggish to some folk. That's not a dog to me, it's a lump.

People shouldn't kid themselves that buying half a poodle and half a lab will give them the desireable (to them) attributes of either breed be they real or imagined. It's a lottery. Many of the ones I've met are more live wire than poodles.

If you want a non-shedding dog that's always going to be easy to live with and be undemanding, then your only safe bet is to get one of these:

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Sheridan]

No, they're not.

But why would crossing a Lab with a poodle guarantee Lab temperament anymore than it would guarantee poodle coat??? Many of these crosses don't have temperaments or coats like either of the parent breeds.

Add the fact that you're not talking the best of the best with either of the breeds used to generate crosses, that the pups are generally raised outside homes and you're pretty much guaranteeing you won't produce what families are looking for.

If people come here asking for a non-shedding dog of "laid back" temperament, the first two things I'm going to ask are:

* what do you mean by "laid back"

* what exercise, training and stimulation will you provide?

Temperament is only partly genetic. The rest is experience and environment. If people would only grasp that ideal family dogs are made, not born, we'd be on our way to better dog ownership in our community.

Wheatens often get labelled as having less of a terrier temperament, which I think to some people's minds don't make them have a terrier temperament at all. This, of course, is complete bollocks but there's no persuading some, including sadly, some wheaten breeders.

[Sheridan]

I've never said crossing labs and poodles will guarentee lab temps I'm talking about the broader application of selective breeding for temperament and the thread's original question of labradoodle breed development which is not the same as f1 crosses (that distinction has already been made a number of times).

I also mentioned breeding towards a milder temperament within the breed to result in a different strain such as already exists in many breeds similar to 'show lines' and 'working lines' neither is worse or better than the other they are different and the focus of their breeding goals has been different.

I don't want a wheaten or kerry with a milder temperament. I like my breeds the way they are, thanks. They've always been perfectly capable of being both a working dog and a member of the household with the personalities that they've had since the beginning.

[aussielover]

I don't think either labs or poodles are particularly laid back.

The crosses have failed in their original purpose- to breed a non shedding guide dog.

They lack the temperament (many are quite flighty and neurotic) and many do not have the non shedding coat.

The lab x golden has actually been a much more successful cross for the guide dog breeding program.

[poodlefan]

Most current breeds have been selectively bred for temperaments and many devotees are wedded to that temperament in its current form.

The whole point of selective breeding is to improve the chances of obtaining desireable characteristics in the next generation.

If you don't like poodles, choose another non-shedding breed. There's plenty to choose from.

It might require you to do a bit more research than visiting the nearest Pets Purgatory though.

Honestly, if people put as much effort into choosing a dog as they do a car, dogs would be a lot better off.

You don't see folk who want a small all wheel drive heading down to the local chop shop to buy a Corolla body bolted to a Landcruiser engine and chassis by someone who's done a Stotts correspondence course in mechanics who guarantees Corolla fuel economy with Landcruiser offroad ability.

People buy dogs like that every damn day.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Steve]

I have heard that some people are saying weather the Labradoodle is a pedigree breed or not. I've heard some people in the dog show business believe it should be???

Breed standard

http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/ALabradoodleBreedStandard.html

[poodlefan]

I have heard that some people are saying weather the Labradoodle is a pedigree breed or not. I've heard some people in the dog show business believe it should be???

Breed standard

http://www.ilainc.com/IALA/ALabradoodleBreedStandard.html

Huge range of sizes, wide range of coat type and a temperament that could never be described as laid back

Temperament: Extremely clever, sociable, comical, joyful, energetic when free and soft and quiet when handled.

More work required IMO but at least there IS a standard. Time to change the ridiculous name.

[WoofnHoof]

Poodles don't need "milder temperament". You're suggesting that there's something wrong with the breed now.

The only thing wrong is people who can't get past a stereotype to the real dog underneath.

Poodles don't have "lines". They don't have a working job now. They are companions. If you don't want a lively people focussed companion, then don't get one. "Laid back" might mean undemanding, unresponsive and sluggish to some folk. That's not a dog to me, it's a lump.

People shouldn't kid themselves that buying half a poodle and half a lab will give them the desireable (to them) attributes of either breed be they real or imagined. It's a lottery. Many of the ones I've met are more live wire than poodles.

If you want a non-shedding dog that's always going to be easy to live with and be undemanding, then your only safe bet is to get one of these:

There is nothing wrong with the breed but when it's continually trotted out as the viable alternative to the 'labradoodle' (which AGAIN I will point out is not half poodle half lab but IS a breed in development whether people agree with the stupid name or not) then it's obvious that the breed is not what people are looking for, otherwise they would be buying them in droves and not buying labradoodles (or buying crosses under the pretense that it carries the desired traits).

I still think that your insistence that one of the most popular breeds in this country is so desirable because it attracts substandard owners is insulting. Labs have been popular for a very very long time, there is a reason for this and it's one worth investigating and not just dismissing out of some assumption that it's because they appeal to lazy people who want unresponsive lumps instead of 'real dogs' (whatever that means)

I don't want a wheaten or kerry with a milder temperament. I like my breeds the way they are, thanks. They've always been perfectly capable of being both a working dog and a member of the household with the personalities that they've had since the beginning.

Again that's great if you want the full on wheaten or kerry, but if other people don't what do you do? Which breed do you direct them to if there is none that filfils the requirement? There is no point saying find another breed because there isn't one - that's the problem. People say get a poodle but poodles need more stimulation than a lab, people say get this or that other breed but most of these are rare so where do people go? Assuming existing breeders can produce the amount of pups needed who is promoting them? Who is making buyers aware of them?

[WoofnHoof]

Most current breeds have been selectively bred for temperaments and many devotees are wedded to that temperament in its current form.

The whole point of selective breeding is to improve the chances of obtaining desireable characteristics in the next generation.

If you don't like poodles, choose another non-shedding breed. There's plenty to choose from.

It might require you to do a bit more research than visiting the nearest Pets Purgatory though.

Honestly, if people put as much effort into choosing a dog as they do a car, dogs would be a lot better off.

You don't see folk who want a small all wheel drive heading down to the local chop shop to buy a Corolla body bolted to a Landcruiser engine and chassis by someone who's done a Stotts correspondence course in mechanics who guarantees Corolla fuel economy with Landcruiser offroad ability.

People buy dogs like that every damn day.

No there isn't that has already been pointed out.

[Sheridan]

I don't want a wheaten or kerry with a milder temperament. I like my breeds the way they are, thanks. They've always been perfectly capable of being both a working dog and a member of the household with the personalities that they've had since the beginning.

Again that's great if you want the full on wheaten or kerry, but if other people don't what do you do? Which breed do you direct them to if there is none that filfils the requirement? There is no point saying find another breed because there isn't one - that's the problem. People say get a poodle but poodles need more stimulation than a lab, people say get this or that other breed but most of these are rare so where do people go? Assuming existing breeders can produce the amount of pups needed who is promoting them? Who is making buyers aware of them?

I think we've had this conversation before, no? And I think at the time it was about tollers?

It is not my job to be a broker for people looking for a puppy. I can tell them that the wheaten and kerry are not right for them because of particular reasons (and I'll just reiterate that there hasn't been a 'what breed should I get?' thread that has made me go, 'That person's just right for a wheaten or a kerry!'). What you seem to want is to make over a breed into what any buyer wants but wheatens and kerries (insert any breed) are those breeds with those temperaments for a reason. You want to change what makes them those breeds and if that's what's required to make someone get a wheaten or a kerry then I don't want to have my breeds in the hands of those sorts of people. Or indeed, you. Because, then they wouldn't be those breeds and people may as well get a stuffed toy. I don't want generic blah dogs. You may but I don't.

[poodlefan]

I still think that your insistence that one of the most popular breeds in this country is so desirable because it attracts substandard owners is insulting. Labs have been popular for a very very long time, there is a reason for this and it's one worth investigating and not just dismissing out of some assumption that it's because they appeal to lazy people who want unresponsive lumps instead of 'real dogs' (whatever that means)

Where on earth did I say that? I said that they have the reputation of being an ideal family dog. I said quite a few people don't know the dog's original function. How does that translate into "attracts substandard owners"??

The breed is popular (amongst other things) because of its image as a family dog. A well bred, well trained Lab is a superb family dog. It is also tolerant and adaptable for the most part. It is not an ideal dog for lazy owners, and nor would I recommend it to anyone who isn't going to train and exercise it regularly.

I also didn't say that Labradors are lazy, unresponsive lumps. I said that is what some folk mean by "laid back". It is not a descriptor I would use to describe Labradors. Not ones that weight under 40kg anyway.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

Most current breeds have been selectively bred for temperaments and many devotees are wedded to that temperament in its current form.

The whole point of selective breeding is to improve the chances of obtaining desireable characteristics in the next generation.

If you don't like poodles, choose another non-shedding breed. There's plenty to choose from.

It might require you to do a bit more research than visiting the nearest Pets Purgatory though.

Honestly, if people put as much effort into choosing a dog as they do a car, dogs would be a lot better off.

You don't see folk who want a small all wheel drive heading down to the local chop shop to buy a Corolla body bolted to a Landcruiser engine and chassis by someone who's done a Stotts correspondence course in mechanics who guarantees Corolla fuel economy with Landcruiser offroad ability.

People buy dogs like that every damn day.

No there isn't that has already been pointed out.

There are many non-shedding breeds in a range of different sizes and temperaments.

They range in size from the Toy Poodles and Bichon Frise to the Portnguese Water Dog and span most breed Groups (no Hounds though sadly). The fact that your average punter hasn't heard of many of them doesn't mean they can't be found.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan

[Sandra777]

Lab Temp:TemperamentLabs are loving, people oriented dogs. They are happiest when they are with you. Labs are retrievers and will bring you things they find lying about your house and yard.

They tend to be quite patient with children and wonderful family dogs. They are not guard dogs. They may bark protectively but will generally not act more aggressively.

Labs are wonderful people dogs more likely to lick someone to death than hurt them. They tend to be stable, not easily upset by strange things or occurrences. They will take many things in their stride.

You have just described the Staffordshire Bull Terrier temperament to a T except for the piece I have bolded. '

Similarity between Labradors & SBT - both have been cursed with a fabulous temperament which is totally misunderstood by people who assume that the well bred, well trained ones they see are just born that way. I agree with whoever said a Labrador puppy and a young family (novice/uninformed owner) is a recipe for disaster. Labs are perceived as being perfect dogs because of the well trained ones people see via Guide Dogs etc.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Sandra777

[WoofnHoof]

I think we've had this conversation before, no? And I think at the time it was about tollers?

It is not my job to be a broker for people looking for a puppy. I can tell them that the wheaten and kerry are not right for them because of particular reasons (and I'll just reiterate that there hasn't been a 'what breed should I get?' thread that has made me go, 'That person's just right for a wheaten or a kerry!'). What you seem to want is to make over a breed into what any buyer wants but wheatens and kerries (insert any breed) are those breeds with those temperaments for a reason. You want to change what makes them those breeds and if that's what's required to make someone get a wheaten or a kerry then I don't want to have my breeds in the hands of those sorts of people. Or indeed, you. Because, then they wouldn't be those breeds and people may as well get a stuffed toy. I don't want generic blah dogs. You may but I don't.

I don't 'want' anything, I'm pointing out the obvious fact that there is a demand for dogs of lab type that are low or non shedding. I'm pointing at a few ways that pure breeders could cater to this niche without the development of a need breed. Again the use of the term 'generic blah dog's could be perceived as insulting and I don't even own a lab!

Most current breeds have been selectively bred for temperaments and many devotees are wedded to that temperament in its current form.

The whole point of selective breeding is to improve the chances of obtaining desireable characteristics in the next generation.

If you don't like poodles, choose another non-shedding breed. There's plenty to choose from.

It might require you to do a bit more research than visiting the nearest Pets Purgatory though.

Honestly, if people put as much effort into choosing a dog as they do a car, dogs would be a lot better off.

You don't see folk who want a small all wheel drive heading down to the local chop shop to buy a Corolla body bolted to a Landcruiser engine and chassis by someone who's done a Stotts correspondence course in mechanics who guarantees Corolla fuel economy with Landcruiser offroad ability.

People buy dogs like that every damn day.

No there isn't that has already been pointed out.

There are many non-shedding breeds in a range of different sizes and temperaments.

They range in size from the Toy Poodles and Bichon Frise to the Portnguese Water Dog and span most breed Groups (no

Hounds though sadly). The fact that your average punter hasn't heard of many of them doesn't mean they can't be found.

Again name one of these breeds with a temperament comparable to that of the Labrador and not as rare as hens teeth?

If pure breed people are going to whinge about the development of the labradoodle as a new breed then they need to promote a viable and practical alternative, otherwise all the discussion in the world means nothing.

[aussielover]

I wouldn't call either a labrador or a poodle laid back. Labradors can be calm and steady when they receive enough training and stimulation and so can poodles.

Lab x poodle is an unsuccessful cross for its original purpose as a low shedding/hypoallergenic guide dog. The majority had the wrong temperament- flighty and weak nerved (opposite of what you want in a guide dog) and few were low shedding and hypoallergenic.

Guide dogs have had better success with lab/golden crosses in terms of temperament.

I would say most lab/poodle mixes have a temperament closer to a poodle than a lab. They tend to be more sensitive than labs.

PWD have a closer temperament to labs in my opinion (but i've only ever met two- they get along fabulously with my lab, due to similar play style and energy levels).

And labradors are perfect dogs (in the right hands!)