Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[poodlefan]

I don't see how they are easier to get - last year there were several breeders of standard poodles who had a great deal of difficulty placing pups from their litters. I look at the puppy adverts every week and there were standards being advertised at 6 months as remaining from a litter. I personally know of several breeders who had a great deal of trouble. Mini poodle breeders have also said things are slower and as for toys there are always litters in the DOL pages.

One of the side effects of the dd craze is that poodle breeders are very wary about who is purchasing a puppy - are they going to be used to produce dds

I think one of the differences is that poodle breeders are very upfront about how much grooming a poodle requires whereas I have seen many dd websites that say the dd coat should only be clipped off once per year.

Anyway - got to go and groom my dogs

Really? Visit a pet shop or google for one. Not many Standard Poodle breeders I know will sell you a pup without wanting to know more than your credit card number.

[~*Shell*~]

We see a lot of them come through our obedience club. Some of them are nice dogs but it's not uncommon to see hyperactive poodle x dogs (no matter what the cross is) and I haven't yet had one of them say "we researched so and so cross breed for a while", most of them walked into the local pet shop and just handed over the money.

In comparison, the owners of purebreed dogs that come through our club usually say to me "oh we looked at this breed and that breed and then decided on puppy's breed" - i also get a whole lot fewer comments about Zero from those people. I tend to get a lot of "i wanted one of them" (sibe) from the people who did their research - it's amazing what a little bit of googling can do.

[shortstep]

Steve, perhaps you would feel differently if you owned a poodle. The poodle temperament is wonderful - yet there is this constant cry (begun by Don Burke) and perpetuated by oodle breeders and apologists that poodles are neurotic. Nearly every fluffy cross that comes into my local rescue has been crossed with a poodle - currently there are a litter of puppies sired by a standard poodle to a border collie - deliberately bred in the hope of cashing in on the oodle craze. Toy and Mini Poodles were a favourite with byb before the oodle craze and now it is even worse. I have to go and walk my poodles (and the poodle cross from rescue currently in my care) no doubt I will bump into someone with and oodle who proudly proclaims it is a purebred.

Perhaps there needs to be a new forum for breeds in development.

How would you feel if instead of taking poodles to cross breed to make a different breed, if they only used poodles to create their new breed. Changing the standard away from what the breed has always been bred to, changing the breeding goals, they soon start to look different and you no longer recognize the traits you always knew in poodles. Even when DNA tested they are clearly not the poodles they started with anymore. Yet they still call them poodles and market them as poodles and call the old poodles inferiour, predeveloped or mongrels. And yes, every street you walk down there is one of these new poodles and they owners ask you if your real poodle is a cross breed.

How would that be?

Edited March 21, 2011 by shortstep

[Clyde]

A lot of people don't like the more traditional Poodle look. I can't even count how many times I have told people that I can style their future Poodle to look like an Oodle if that's the look they like. I never win though, they always go for the Oodle - mainly because they don't want a 'woosey' dog or hubby refuses to get a Poodle. If only they knew a real Poodle!! I even know of people who thought that the Poodles were born with a clean face. TBH I love nothing more than a black mini Poodle, left shaggy and a natural face - talk about cute!

I must admit though, there is something about the eyes of a Cav X Poodle that melt my heart I only have a problem with breeding dogs which aren't health tested.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Clyde

[Miranda]

Dogzonline was known to be a place where people became educated and learned about issues which will affect our dogs,debated and pushed the topics we wanted to particpate in without fear that the man was being played instead of the ball. If it is to be a place where we are limited to what we can say because some of us only want to talk about ANKC ,ANKC registered dogs with others who only have ANKC registered dogs and only pro ANKC is ever allowed to be part of the discussion perhaps its time Troy considered changing the name of the site to ankczonline or perhaps saving himself the grief and selling it to the ANKC.

Steve what is stopping you from creating your own forum, perhaps you could call it MDBAonline. This would enable you to talk about labradorxpoodles, developing new breeds, altering breed standards, how the ANKC is a crappy outdated organisation and whatever else you choose to discuss without having to deal with posts from any old fashioned, non-progressive ANKC supporters. It would also be a good place to discuss how you're going to run the MDBA 'shows' and all other events you are planning to conduct in the future.

I won't put a little man rolling on the floor with laughter after this post because personally I don't find your continual knocking of the ANKC in the least amusing, I have also noticed that your derogatory remarks have markedly increased since the formation of the new MDBA registry.

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

[Clyde]

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

You're right Miranda, it is a mutt - but is there any problem with being forward thinking? Hashing out an issue which apparently plagues the pure bred world?

[Miranda]

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

You're right Miranda, it is a mutt - but is there any problem with being forward thinking? Hashing out an issue which apparently plagues the pure bred world?

It's not that Clyde, it's the constant little digs about the ANKC that get to me and the frequent references to the MDBA and its supposed superiority. I am certainly not saying that the ANKC is perfect, far from it, but I think we should be getting behind them and initiating change, not joining some other organisation that will, in time, be beset with exactly the same problems as the much maligned ANKC.

[Steve]

Dogzonline was known to be a place where people became educated and learned about issues which will affect our dogs,debated and pushed the topics we wanted to particpate in without fear that the man was being played instead of the ball. If it is to be a place where we are limited to what we can say because some of us only want to talk about ANKC ,ANKC registered dogs with others who only have ANKC registered dogs and only pro ANKC is ever allowed to be part of the discussion perhaps its time Troy considered changing the name of the site to ankczonline or perhaps saving himself the grief and selling it to the ANKC.

Steve what is stopping you from creating your own forum, perhaps you could call it MDBAonline. This would enable you to talk about labradorxpoodles, developing new breeds, altering breed standards, how the ANKC is a crappy outdated organisation and whatever else you choose to discuss without having to deal with posts from any old fashioned, non-progressive ANKC supporters. It would also be a good place to discuss how you're going to run the MDBA 'shows' and all other events you are planning to conduct in the future.

I won't put a little man rolling on the floor with laughter after this post because personally I don't find your continual knocking of the ANKC in the least amusing, I have also noticed that your derogatory remarks have markedly increased since the formation of the new MDBA registry.

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

I do have my own forum where all of this can be discussed its is called the MDBA forum [close enough] and that doesnt mean I cant enter and be involved with a controversial issue here or on any other forum and give my opinion does it? Im not breaching forum rules - Im not promoting cross breeding or designer dogs in fact Im very much against them.

I am also saying that a lab x poodle is a mutt however, that seems to have gone over your head. No where in this thread have I said the ANKC is an outdated organisation,nor have I advocated for a change in breed standards or encouraged anyone to begin a new breed and Im happy to converse with people who have a different opinion to me because Im happy to stand corrected if Im proven wrong. You can still support the ANKC and look reasonably at the situation without having to shut down - but worse being on the attack to shut anyone else down who sees it a little differently.

There's nothing new in what the breeders who are working toward breed development are doing than anything thats been done for hundreds of years - its not anti ANKC or anti purebred. If and when they have fit the criteria they may even apply to be recognised by the ANKC and be seen to be breeding an ANKC recognised breed.

But are we to be banned from speaking of any new breed in development ? If so for how long ? Do we have to wait until they are 15 years down the track and accepted as an ANKC breed before its O.K. to talk about it here?

[LizT]

So what are they going to put down as the origin of the breed - to make money!!!!!!!

Actually I think originally they were bred in an attempt to create a non-allergenic breed to be a guide dog...failed for that purpose though as of course only 50% of them retain the poodle non-shedding type coat. Really can't see them becoming a true breed in their own right in the near future though, because of the issues already identified by others in this post.

If only Wally Conron had attempted to train a highly intelligent standard Poodle as a Guide Dog.....the outcome would have been so different!

[shortstep]

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

You're right Miranda, it is a mutt - but is there any problem with being forward thinking? Hashing out an issue which apparently plagues the pure bred world?

It's not that Clyde, it's the constant little digs about the ANKC that get to me and the frequent references to the MDBA and its supposed superiority. I am certainly not saying that the ANKC is perfect, far from it, but I think we should be getting behind them and initiating change, not joining some other organisation that will, in time, be beset with exactly the same problems as the much maligned ANKC.

I have ANKC dogs. I am not a member of MDBA and know little about what they are doing as a registry, however...

Some kennel clubs around the world are changing to address the issues surrounding purebred dogs and some kennel clubs are not. Is MDBA one that is making some changes to the traditional way of doing things in Australia? I do not know but it would not bother me if they were, and I would want to know more about it. Is that bad for ANKC and should not be spoken about? Not to me it isn't.

If you look at the northern European kennel clubs many of them are making some real changes, changes that if brought up on DOL are said to be making trouble for ANKC. These are world wide topics. So now we are to not suppose to talk about what other kennel clubs are doing that might be different to what ANKC does?

Here is one for you, open stud books, open to the purebred working registries for the same breeds. Now lets make it personal, why is the ANKC stud book closed to WKC kelpies at time when the world is looking for the ANKC to be increasing it's gene pool and to make a real attempt to promote other dog breeding plans that are not show ring centered?

There are kennel clubs in other countries that accept WKC dogs. They also have mandatory hip testing and open data banks of health test results, and lots of other things going on worth talking about.

And BTW I would love to hear about MDBA or any other KC type registry and how they are addressing the issue of opening stud books to purebred working registered dogs.

Is this topic a dig about ANKC and should not be spoken about?

[Steve]

Well apart from saying that I consider a labxpoodle a mutt, that's all I have to say and if this post gets me a warning or an exclusion from DOL so be it.

You're right Miranda, it is a mutt - but is there any problem with being forward thinking? Hashing out an issue which apparently plagues the pure bred world?

It's not that Clyde, it's the constant little digs about the ANKC that get to me and the frequent references to the MDBA and its supposed superiority. I am certainly not saying that the ANKC is perfect, far from it, but I think we should be getting behind them and initiating change, not joining some other organisation that will, in time, be beset with exactly the same problems as the much maligned ANKC.

Who is asking you to join another organisation ? Who is asking you to turn against the ANKC ? The reference to the MDBA wasnt about superiority it was explaining that being able to discuss controversial issues has led to open discussion and education.It was about the fact that back in 2001 when some people here were discussing a new group - not the MDBA at that time that some people came in and went nuts - tried to have it shut up and some even had threats made against them. The thread on the mini dals was pretty hot too. We were able to continue with the discussion. How can anyone get behind the ANKC and initiate change when they wont even speak about what is going on in the real world and what people may be doing with new breed development? But this isnt about the ANKC changing anyway - they have a perfectly good system in place where people can work for 15 years on developing a breed and then go to them and apply for breed recognition - I dont want to see that changed. I just want to be able to talk about it without being censored. For the record there are no breeders of labradoodles in the MDBA and it is very unlikely there ever will be.

[Aidan3]

If only Wally Conron had attempted to train a highly intelligent standard Poodle as a Guide Dog.....the outcome would have been so different!

He attempted to fulfill the criteria with no less than 33 Standard Poodles without success.

He got lucky with the first cross-bred litter, and quickly realised that the probability of obtaining suitable stock this way was also very low.

[poodlefan]

If only Wally Conron had attempted to train a highly intelligent standard Poodle as a Guide Dog.....the outcome would have been so different!

He attempted to fulfill the criteria with no less than 33 Standard Poodles without success.

He got lucky with the first cross-bred litter, and quickly realised that the probability of obtaining suitable stock this way was also very low.

I wonder what would have happened if he'd used slightly older dogs. They mature later than Labs but they live longer too.

[Aidan3]

If only Wally Conron had attempted to train a highly intelligent standard Poodle as a Guide Dog.....the outcome would have been so different!

He attempted to fulfill the criteria with no less than 33 Standard Poodles without success.

He got lucky with the first cross-bred litter, and quickly realised that the probability of obtaining suitable stock this way was also very low.

I wonder what would have happened if he'd used slightly older dogs. They mature later than Labs but they live longer too.

The main problem was not their trainability, interestingly enough. The client's husband was allergic to nearly all of them. Interestingly, he was not allergic to three of the cross-bred litter.

[Sheridan]

It might be distressing to poodle purists that their breed is being used in the development of this new breed, but the fact is that the niche exists,

But just what niche is that? For a dog which is perceived to be non-shedding and isn't, calm and intelligent and isn't, healthier than either parent breed and isn't?

If you want a ''non shedding'' breed which is larger than a Bichon but not a Standard Poodle then what's wrong with a Portuguese Water Dog, Standard or Giant Schnauzer, Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier, Kerry Blue Terrier, Lagotto, the list is pretty extensive.

What is wrong with them is the general public doesn't know about them!

Appologies if this is going OT but I don't know much about many of these dogs mentioned either other than most are non-shedding. What are their tempraments like? Would they be a match to people who are looking for a labradoodle (I know that labradoodles don't exactly have a standard temperament but I guess I am trying to say are they biddable, happy go lucky family dog similar to a labrador).

*falls off chair laughing at the thought of a 'biddable' wheaten and kerry blue*

[Bluefairy]

Just to go back to the availability issue....before I became a Purebred convert, to look for a pup meant, checking the notice boards at the shops, looking in the paper, going to the pet shops, or word of mouth. I had absolutely no idea how to go about looking for a specific purebred dog for my families needs....a dog was a dog and that meant mutts only. They were very easily available, someone somewhere near by had a female who just had a litter and you got your choice pf puppy to pick.

It is only the last 15-20 years that I have been introduced to the Purebred dog and I would now never go back to the mongrel. With the introduction of the internet, finding a breed of dog to suit your families needs has improved heaps. Reading books on the subject helps, and now they have dog magazines, that road test some of these breeds....though you still get the DD in them.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it took me years to start to research a breed, to find out everything I could about that breed, to go to shows, to talk to breeders, to search online. Some people are so ignorant (I don't mean that offensively, I mean they know no better) of what to do or where to go to even find out the simplest of facts about any dog. I only found this web site last year by accident, so for others it would be harder to find.

I think the only thing to ever help get the message across is educating people....but its NOT getting out there. So why are the DD's being promoted more than the Pure Bred dogs? I think this has more of an impact in people buying DD's than Pure Bred's.

There needs to be some form of advertising, obviously better than what they are doing now, to promote the Pure Bred dogs and discourage the DD, with the hard facts on why.....there needs to be information about where people can go to ask questions, information on web sites like this, and anything else to help.

I never knew about a lot of things until I came here.....this web site is so enlightening....its just a shame not many people know about it. Though I know of many people now spreading the word to people who want to know anything about dogs. But its still not enough.....there are still people, taking the word of other people that DD are the best ever dogs....

BF

[Miranda]

I do have my own forum where all of this can be discussed its is called the MDBA forum [close enough] and that doesnt mean I cant enter and be involved with a controversial issue here or on any other forum and give my opinion does it? Im not breaching forum rules - Im not promoting cross breeding or designer dogs in fact Im very much against them.

I am also saying that a lab x poodle is a mutt however, that seems to have gone over your head. No where in this thread have I said the ANKC is an outdated organisation,nor have I advocated for a change in breed standards or encouraged anyone to begin a new breed and Im happy to converse with people who have a different opinion to me because Im happy to stand corrected if Im proven wrong. You can still support the ANKC and look reasonably at the situation without having to shut down - but worse being on the attack to shut anyone else down who sees it a little differently.

There's nothing new in what the breeders who are working toward breed development are doing than anything thats been done for hundreds of years - its not anti ANKC or anti purebred. If and when they have fit the criteria they may even apply to be recognised by the ANKC and be seen to be breeding an ANKC recognised breed.

But are we to be banned from speaking of any new breed in development ? If so for how long ? Do we have to wait until they are 15 years down the track and accepted as an ANKC breed before its O.K. to talk about it here?

Steve I don't care what you choose to discuss on Dogzonline and I have nothing against the development of new breeds providing proper procedures are followed, what I object to are the constant derogatory comments about the ANKC. You speak in a previous post about 'playing the man', but I notice that you and a few others don't miss an opportunity to (might as well stick with the football analogies) 'put the boot in' to the ANKC.

I had nothing against the MDBA until you made a decision to alter breed standards on the say so of just five people involved with each breed. I just couldn't believe that you would have the presumption to do such a thing, ok you've been involved with dogs for a long time, but so have I, maybe even longer than you, and I certainly wouldn't make such a suggestion.

Personally I don't see the point of the MDBA, sure you can set yourself up as some elite registry, but unless you physically check everyone who applies to join you are going have bad breeders infiltrate your organisation simply because they can then advertise themselves as members and perhaps increase their chances of selling puppies. You talk about conducting 'shows' which will be nothing like ANKC shows and various other events, but you still haven't given any indication as to what these 'shows' and other events will entail. Your pedigrees will never be accepted by any of the major kennel clubs around the world (I don't count the UKC and the Continental Kennel Club and all the other organisations in the U.S. who will register just about anything as major kennel clubs), so apart from being able to say that "I'm a member of the MDBA which automatically makes me squeaky clean and 100% ethical" and having the facility to include health testing results on pedigrees you have nothing to offer to someone like me. That's not to say that lots of people don't think exactly the opposite and think that the MDBA has plenty to offer, that's their prerogative, I've nothing against that either.

I have absolutely nothing against you Steve, you seem like a very nice person and you have a comprehensive knowledge of all things dog even if I don't always agree with everything you say. However even though I'm sure that you have the best interests of dogs at heart, you can't deny that the MDBA is also about making a profit, and I'm sure that enrolling dogs in a new registry is far more profitable than enrolling new members and attempting to sell various dog related courses. I am not trying to be offensive here, I'm simply stating a fact, you and your co-director have spent a lot of money getting the MDBA up and running and obviously you are wanting to get that money back and make enough to money out of it on an ongoing basis to make a living, that's only sensible.

Anyway these are my thoughts on the subject, many won't agree with me and that's fine. I will stand behind the ANKC as I think they are the best bet for purebred dogs and others will join the MDBA and the dog world will become even more divided than it is now. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Edited March 22, 2011 by Miranda

[WoofnHoof]

So what do you call a miniature poodle if not a medium sized non shedding dog of even temperament.

Maybe even temp is the wrong word, more like laid back temp? Labradors are one of the most popular breeds in this country, the main reason is their easygoing temperament most people would agree that the temperament of the lab and the temperament of the poodle are poles apart, poodles are high energy dogs. I also wouldn't call a miniature poodle a medium sized dog I would call it a small dog and a lot of people don't want small dogs for various reasons.

I agree with Clyde that the main reason poodles aren't as popular as their many positive traits would suggest is largely due to negative perceptions of the breed, this then becomes a PR issue.

One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

[Miranda]

Here is one for you, open stud books, open to the purebred working registries for the same breeds. Now lets make it personal, why is the ANKC stud book closed to WKC kelpies at time when the world is looking for the ANKC to be increasing it's gene pool and to make a real attempt to promote other dog breeding plans that are not show ring centered?

There are kennel clubs in other countries that accept WKC dogs. They also have mandatory hip testing and open data banks of health test results, and lots of other things going on worth talking about.

And BTW I would love to hear about MDBA or any other KC type registry and how they are addressing the issue of opening stud books to purebred working registered dogs.

Is this topic a dig about ANKC and should not be spoken about?

I have nothing against opening stud books to purebred WKC kelpies shortstep, providing their registry is legitimate. I have no idea what the ANKC think about this, but I would not be against it should the subject arise. I certainly don't blindly agree with everything the ANKC does, there are definitely changes that need to be made.

[poodlefan]

One idea which could provide some middle ground could be if some breeders worked towards developing a regional strain, an 'Aussie poodle' if you will, where they take purebred poodles and breed only the most laid back individuals while still maintaining the quality of the health aspects and retaining most of the original traits but with a slant towards the kind of temperament that is more suited for the average dog owner. But no doubt that would be considered equally heinous by the purists since apparently breeding for traits that make a dog a more desirable pet is a less noble purpose than say breeding for traits that make a dog a better worker.

What makes you think Australian poodle owners want a dog different to poodles in other parts of the world?

I love my poodles for their playfulness, their love of life and their gaiety. If I didnt' want a happy outgoing dog I'd own another breed.

They're not nut cases, they have an off switch and they don't bounce off the walls.

Many 'average' dog owners have coped just fine with a dog that wants to be exercised, play and spend time with them. Their popularity over decades is testament to that.

Pity some people can't see past the hairdo to the great family companion underneath.

Edited March 22, 2011 by poodlefan