Labradoodle Pedgiree Or Not?

[Darkrai]

The worst thing is when it boils down to it, purebred breeders are working to breed sound, healthy dogs for the future, but we are made immoral cause we have inbred dogs, as apparently that how show dogs are bred.

Yet its ok for someone to sell a pup from Xbred non health tested parents, leaving the new puppy owner with a possible ticking time bomb of expensive vet bills or worse.

As much as we can try when ppl hear purebred/pedigree the first thing that comes to mind is OMG thats going to cost me a fortune... Most will look at do i buy a puppy from this purebred person for say $1500 or Bob down the road who has a purebred litter for $100...

As long as there is a demand for them, they will still be around :rolleyes:

[WoofnHoof]

IF they can get the dogs to breed true to meet their standard of non shedding and easy going temp then it would indeed fill the niche, I think that the hybrid vigor fallacy is only one aspect of the appeal of this cross. The majority of the general public are looking for medium sized healthy dogs with good temperaments that don't shed (as per Monash Anthrozoology group research) and if purebred dogs cannot fill this requirement then it matters not whether the claims labradoodle breeders are valid the fact is they are making those claims and pure breeders are not therefore the public will go to the breeder they believe has the type of dog they seek.

[poodlefan]

IF they can get the dogs to breed true to meet their standard of non shedding and easy going temp then it would indeed fill the niche, I think that the hybrid vigor fallacy is only one aspect of the appeal of this cross. The majority of the general public are looking for medium sized healthy dogs with good temperaments that don't shed (as per Monash Anthrozoology group research) and if purebred dogs cannot fill this requirement then it matters not whether the claims labradoodle breeders are valid the fact is they are making those claims and pure breeders are not therefore the public will go to the breeder they believe has the type of dog they seek.

If people bothered to look at Standard Poodles and Lagotti, they'd find that niche filled by two breeds that breed true.

And frankly the majority of people don't want non-shedding dogs because they don't want to have to have them groomed. They just don't connect non-shedding with high maintenance.

[WoofnHoof]

IF they can get the dogs to breed true to meet their standard of non shedding and easy going temp then it would indeed fill the niche, I think that the hybrid vigor fallacy is only one aspect of the appeal of this cross. The majority of the general public are looking for medium sized healthy dogs with good temperaments that don't shed (as per Monash Anthrozoology group research) and if purebred dogs cannot fill this requirement then it matters not whether the claims labradoodle breeders are valid the fact is they are making those claims and pure breeders are not therefore the public will go to the breeder they believe has the type of dog they seek.

If people bothered to look at Standard Poodles and Lagotti, they'd find that niche filled by two breeds that breed true.

And frankly the majority of people don't want non-shedding dogs because they don't want to have to have them groomed. They just don't connect non-shedding with high maintenance.

This is true but a lot of people who are buying these dogs must be having them groomed at some point or we would be seeing matted dogs at the dog parks all the time.

I ask again do you think the numbers of standard poodle and lagotto pups currently available would come close to the numbers needed? It's well and good to say wait for a pup but most people aren't going to wait excessive amounts of time for a pup, especially when no advertising or marketing has been done to promote these breeds.

[poodlefan]

This is true but a lot of people who are buying these dogs must be having them groomed at some point or we would be seeing matted dogs at the dog parks all the time.

I ask again do you think the numbers of standard poodle and lagotto pups currently available would come close to the numbers needed? It's well and good to say wait for a pup but most people aren't going to wait excessive amounts of time for a pup, especially when no advertising or marketing has been done to promote these breeds.

You're assuming that most dogs get to the dog park. I can tell you that a fair proportion of dogs never leave the back yard. I see oodles in need of a good groom pretty regularly out and about.

The numbers argument doesn't justify puppy mills. That's where most DDs are bred. And most of them shed anyway.

Edited March 21, 2011 by poodlefan

[WoofnHoof]

This is true but a lot of people who are buying these dogs must be having them groomed at some point or we would be seeing matted dogs at the dog parks all the time.

I ask again do you think the numbers of standard poodle and lagotto pups currently available would come close to the numbers needed? It's well and good to say wait for a pup but most people aren't going to wait excessive amounts of time for a pup, especially when no advertising or marketing has been done to promote these breeds.

You're assuming that most dogs get to the dog park. I can tell you that a fair proportion of dogs never leave the back yard. I see oodles in need of a good groom pretty regularly out and about.

The numbers argument doesn't justify puppy mills. That's where most DDs are bred. And most of them shed anyway.

I never said it justifies it I said it explains it. Lots of things don't fulfil people's expectations most people don't bother complaining especially since by the time they find out they are already attached to the pup, heaps of people come on here with problems and even when they are advised to return the pup most don't as they are already attached.

Ultimately people are still buying these dogs so there has to be a reason. Perhaps it's because they aren't as bad as people here are making out, or because their good traits outweigh the bad, or because people are simply not aware of the purebred options out there, I strongly suspect that it's a combination of all three factors.

[2psinapod]

It's interesting that those who have posted that they are intelligent and calm have been Trainers and have obviously come across owners who at least have half a brain to put their DD's through training, because every one I've ever met, and working in an extremely busy boarding kennel, I've met a lot!! I've yet to meet one that is calm or intelligent!

I am yet to see one that looks like another.

I have seen one that I would have put money on that it was a solid liver GWP!

I've posted on DOL before about one particular one that boarded, it was a "6th Generation" which played a big part in it's title :rolleyes: which kind of indicates that it would have no doubt cost the owners a fortune!

It was on 6 different types of oral medication a day (for the rest of it's life too BTW) for health issues and eye ointment for it's weepy/pussy eyes (that debunks the 'Hybrid Vigour' theory)

It's coat was like a sheep's fleece, I kid you not!

It stunk to high heavens and it was like an odour that was simply unfamiliar

And you couldn't get near it, it was that timid.

With it's owner it was a total lunatic like every other one I had seen.

ETA: there is a niche for them because they are a Status Symbol!!

Edited March 21, 2011 by 2psinapod

[Diva]

This is true but a lot of people who are buying these dogs must be having them groomed at some point or we would be seeing matted dogs at the dog parks all the time.

I do.

[WoofnHoof]

Ok so if people want a medium sized non shedding dog with an even temperament where exactly do they get one? What exactly is the purebred dog world doing to promote the options? Is no good bemoaning the development of a breed (or just a cross) when no viable purebred option exists or is available in sufficient numbers to satisfy demand even if the public were aware of them?

All I see in this thread is people whinging about the existence of these crosses, without acknowledging the fact that the very idea of a breed that fits the stated traits is obviously very appealing to a large number of puppy buyers, so much so that they keep going back for more. Why? Why are people not hearing about all these disaster dogs and deciding that they are just not what they are cracked up to be? Puppy farms are churning out hundreds of these pups and still getting buyers, why?

[felix]

Ok so if people want a medium sized non shedding dog with an even temperament where exactly do they get one? What exactly is the purebred dog world doing to promote the options? Is no good bemoaning the development of a breed (or just a cross) when no viable purebred option exists or is available in sufficient numbers to satisfy demand even if the public were aware of them?

All I see in this thread is people whinging about the existence of these crosses, without acknowledging the fact that the very idea of a breed that fits the stated traits is obviously very appealing to a large number of puppy buyers, so much so that they keep going back for more. Why? Why are people not hearing about all these disaster dogs and deciding that they are just not what they are cracked up to be? Puppy farms are churning out hundreds of these pups and still getting buyers, why?

Most standard poodle - lab crosses that I have seen are way bigger than medium. Some of them are huge. And their temperament is anything but even.

They sell because public thinks they are cool. And they think that because they are cleverly advertised. As for buyers keep going back for more, maybe but only after they dumped the old ones.

BTW, you can sell people anything if you are smart enough.

[Steve]

The Australian Labradoodle Association is doing great stuff to ensure they are only breeding healthy dogs and there are some people who are working toward recognition.

Just because the ANKC dont accept onto their registry doesnt mean it isnt a purebred. Problem is the term labradoodle is used to describe a first cross dog with one parent a poodle and one parent a lab - a mongrel and its also used to describe a dog which is breeding consistently to a standard and is 10 or so generations into the breed development work.

I see nothing wrong with anyone working toward making a new breed - predictible and consistent - however, while ever they refuse to change the name they have no hope in my opinion in ever getting recognition for or acceptance of their dogs as a breed.

Well said Steve. Having worked with and trained many of these dogs, I am yet to see a bad one...temperament wise! They are very much a lovely natured dog and exceptionally easy to train. I do hope they succeed in becoming a recognised breed. After all, isn't that how all the pure breeds of today started out :rolleyes:

No. Some breeds, yes, but not all. A lot of purebreds came about through selective breeding from a "type" of dog, not from crossing already recognised breeds.

True but mixed in their breeding program is a mix with other dogs of various types. Because of the name people assume they have only used poodle and lab but that isnt necessarily true - they have used various other breeds including wheatens to develop a consistent type.

If I were developing a new breed in the current political climate I would hesitate very much in even considering having it accepted or recognised by the ANKC.

Why put your breed and yourself into the pot to be beaten up if you dont have to.

Again I say the problem is that when someone says ladradoodle it could mean a first cross lab x poodle which is not consistent or predictible - example a lab cross poodle has equal chance of having one of 69 different coat combinations. They also have equal or higher than average hip issues and allergy issues - there is a huge difference between that and dogs which do breed true to a standard , which are predictible and which have less incidence of disease than most other breeds.

No one who is working on breed development is making money out of breeding dogs - its a hard slog,takes 15 or so years out of your life and any money in regardless of how much each pup goes for will go back into what they are doing. First cross labrodoodles are produced by commercial pet breeders and touted as being healthier when they are not - completely different.

This is not a discussion about designer dogs any more than it would be if we were discussing mini foxies.

Its still the name for me.

[Steve]

Since this forum was created to serve the interests of purebred dogs (AS PER ANKC) I am really annoyed by this thread. I find it insulting to poodles and labs and I don't care how many "other" registries exist or how wonderful they are. I belong to this forum because I have ANKC registered dogs and want to engage in talk with others who who are also interested in purebred dogs.

Ive been here a long time and over the years there have been lots of discussions on new breed development. I remember a great one on mini dalmatians about when I first started here.

I belong to this forum because I learn about dogs, because I can test my own perspectives and opinions and listen to others, where I can debate and grow and consider opinion outside of where Im sitting. This is a dogzonline forum - Australia's purebreed dog forum not the ANKC forum. If we are only ever able to have an open discussion about dogs or breeds which have been accepted onto one purebred registry it sure does restrict us in how we can learn and teach.

While ever topics like this are seen to be out of bounds it ensures that people who participate in this forum are deluded into thinking that because they belong to one group and own dogs which are only registered in one registry that they are their dogs are superior and the practices of those who are a part of their own group dont need to be made aware of the true lay of the land past their own vision.

You have ample opportunity to use the forum as you have said you want to use it - choices as to which topics you go into or participate in - why is it necessary to prevent debate and interaction between those of us who want to be exposed to and participate in something outside your area of interest?

One of the great things for me about this forum has always been the potential for learning.Ive been pushed and challenged which has made me go and do more research and listen to other perspectives.Some times its made me come back and say I was wrong and other times its made me more determined that I am not.

I belong to this forum because dogs are my life and my preference is for purebred dogs not because I only want to engage in talking about how bloody wonderful the ANKC is ,how dogs which are recognised on their registry are the only purebreds in existence and be censored in anything which challenges the staus quo or mythology surrounding the purebred dog world.

Its become a shout where we are being told we cant speak about really important issues which will affect every one of us if they dont already. Dont say that - its breeder bashing, dont say that - its purebred dog bashing, dont say that its designer dog discussion ,dont consider the potential legitimacy of another registry, dont consider the potential for new breed development,dont admit that there are issues in the ANKC or the purebred dog world. Dont allow us to push the boundaries , test the waters, challenge our own and others way of operating or thinking.Thats not why Ive been here so long and played in this playground.

In the first week I joined this forum I particpated in a thread which was already underway based on the concept of starting a new purebred dog group. In fact back then Troy was even offering a donation to get it started. It instigated the beginning of and development of the MDBA and Pacers, in fact in the first few months of the inception of the MDBA Troy was even a member of the original board and had to withdraw when it became so demanding. In all honesty Im a bit over the whole trend which tells us that unless we follow like a sheep and never test the boundaries and discuss new or different ideas and issues that we have to be gagged.

Dogzonline was known to be a place where people became educated and learned about issues which will affect our dogs,debated and pushed the topics we wanted to particpate in without fear that the man was being played instead of the ball. If it is to be a place where we are limited to what we can say because some of us only want to talk about ANKC ,ANKC registered dogs with others who only have ANKC registered dogs and only pro ANKC is ever allowed to be part of the discussion perhaps its time Troy considered changing the name of the site to ankczonline or perhaps saving himself the grief and selling it to the ANKC. :rolleyes:

[Sandra777]

Ok so if people want a medium sized non shedding dog with an even temperament where exactly do they get one? What exactly is the purebred dog world doing to promote the options? Is no good bemoaning the development of a breed (or just a cross) when no viable purebred option exists or is available in sufficient numbers to satisfy demand even if the public were aware of them?

Not at the nearest PP store for sure. They are not generally medium sized and as for non shedding and even temperament :rolleyes: ;)

All I see in this thread is people whinging about the existence of these crosses, without acknowledging the fact that the very idea of a breed that fits the stated traits is obviously very appealing to a large number of puppy buyers, so much so that they keep going back for more. Why? Why are people not hearing about all these disaster dogs and deciding that they are just not what they are cracked up to be? Puppy farms are churning out hundreds of these pups and still getting buyers, why?

Because as well as the non shedding medium sized even temperament myth, people believe the ''there's no such thing as a bad dog'' myth.

Sorry there are ''bad'' dogs born - genetically programmed to be hyperactive, reactive, nervous and unreliable (as well as to shed and be enormous!)

[frufru]

So what do you call a miniature poodle if not a medium sized non shedding dog of even temperament.

[frufru]

Steve, perhaps you would feel differently if you owned a poodle. The poodle temperament is wonderful - yet there is this constant cry (begun by Don Burke) and perpetuated by oodle breeders and apologists that poodles are neurotic. Nearly every fluffy cross that comes into my local rescue has been crossed with a poodle - currently there are a litter of puppies sired by a standard poodle to a border collie - deliberately bred in the hope of cashing in on the oodle craze. Toy and Mini Poodles were a favourite with byb before the oodle craze and now it is even worse. I have to go and walk my poodles (and the poodle cross from rescue currently in my care) no doubt I will bump into someone with and oodle who proudly proclaims it is a purebred.

Perhaps there needs to be a new forum for breeds in development.

Edited March 21, 2011 by frufru

[sandgrubber]

The Lagotto is often marketed as a medium sized non-shedding dog. My perspective is warped by having lived alongside a lagotto breeder who didn't do much to socialize her pups, and bred for show, not temperament. I ran a boarding kennel for six years or so and saw many labradoodles and spoodles.

While many of the -oodles were problematic, I'd say the percent problematic was no higher than what I'd expect from a Lagotto. Key problems are need for grooming and temperament. For the labradoodles, there was an additional problem that puppies ended out becomming much larger than expected. As for a non-shedding dog that doesn't require periodic clipping . . . dream on.

It may be no harder to produce a new breed that is solid and breeds true than to revive an endangered breed.

Problem is, too many people doing both indiscriminately . . . and not enough people being honest with puppy buyers. . . .or selling through pet shops and other middle men, who prevent needed discussion between breeder and seller.

Edited March 21, 2011 by sandgrubber

[frufru]

I think people buy dds because it is the latest craze - we live in a world which is characterised by consumerism gone mad - perhaps that is also partly why I object to xx - it is all about hype.

[Steve]

Fru Fru I wouldnt feel differently if I owned a poodle. I am against first cross dogs no matter what breed they are using.

Im just not prepared to say that no one has a right to have a go at producing a new breed and it makes little difference as to how you or I feel about it. The fact is that it happens now and then and when it does we need to assess it based on the facts and not on anything else.

I personally would have said - here's a beagle and we dont need any other medium sized hunting dogs but a whole bunch of them - Harriers, hamilton stoves and half a dozen more are there. Ive no idea why they they did that but they did and they will continue to develop new breeds. When they are doing that and they are trying their hardest to get it right by testing their breeding dogs and profiling their pedigrees, screening their homes and being there if something goes wrong then how do we or anyone have the right to not only beat the hell out of them for having a go but going as far as banning it from being spoken of.

Again I will say this is far far removed from discussing a designer dog - an F1 first cross. By now all of these generations on none of these breeders will be using poodles or labs.

Stop just shutting down - look at it for what it is and then if you find something you dont agree with in what they are doing by all means yell about it because its making dogs suffer,making it difficult to live with them etc but stop making the assumption they are still using your breed or anyone else's because by now they are using their own.

And all of this could be avoided if they hadnt of kept the stupid name.

[poodlefan]

I think people buy dds because it is the latest craze - we live in a world which is characterised by consumerism gone mad - perhaps that is also partly why I object to xx - it is all about hype.

I think they buy them because they are marketted as "hypoallergenic", healthier than purebred dogs and a damn side easier to get.

Address that and maybe we'll be getting somewhere.

[frufru]

I don't see how they are easier to get - last year there were several breeders of standard poodles who had a great deal of difficulty placing pups from their litters. I look at the puppy adverts every week and there were standards being advertised at 6 months as remaining from a litter. I personally know of several breeders who had a great deal of trouble. Mini poodle breeders have also said things are slower and as for toys there are always litters in the DOL pages.

One of the side effects of the dd craze is that poodle breeders are very wary about who is purchasing a puppy - are they going to be used to produce dds

I think one of the differences is that poodle breeders are very upfront about how much grooming a poodle requires whereas I have seen many dd websites that say the dd coat should only be clipped off once per year.

Anyway - got to go and groom my dogs